Rastrelli F
Cпасиба
editДобрый День Господин Растрээльльи! И большое спасиба что Нашли ошыбку! Cepд.Привет!--[[User:Roland von Bagratuni|Roland von Bagratuni-մեծ իշխան Ռոլանդ ֆօն Բագրատունի Անիեցի<sup>[[User discussion:Roland von Bagratuni|ԿԵՑՑԵ ՄԵԾ ՀԱՅՈՑ ԱՐԿԱՅՈՒԹՅՈՒՆ]]</sup>]] 17:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello and welcome to the wikiproject - here's the bulletin - if you don't like it just delete it from your talk page, otherwise, it automatically updates. Please give me or one of the other project members a shout if you need any help. Kind regards --Mcginnly | Natter 19:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
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Gaumarjos
editHi Rastrelli f and welcome to our tiny Georgian community of Wikipedia. We are in a desperate need of the article about Architecture of Georgia. I hope you will find some time to fill the gap :) I think I can also be of modest help. Droebit, KoberTalk 19:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Пожалуйста, переименуй Bartolomeo Rastrelli в Francesco Bartolomeo Rastrelli это действительно сильно путает. У меня нет здесь учётной записи, поэтому я не могу этого сделать. На Commons я это уже сделал commons:Francesco Bartolomeo Rastrelli. NB: В русской Википедии есть обе статьи (ru:Растрелли, Бартоломео Карло и ru:Растрелли, Бартоломео Франческо). -- 195.239.224.242 11:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC) ru:Участник:Sergey kudryavtsev
Levan Mchedlidze
editHi, because I creted the article Levan Mchedlidze, could you please write his name in georgian? Thank you. Ciao --Gaúcho 19:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Georgian names
editGreetings. I just edited the Georgian names article, and thought you might like to know about the {{name-stub}} and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Stub types article. ^_^ —DocWatson42 22:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
IPA templates
editHi,
Just to let you know, we now have IPA templates that link to pronunciation keys that are more accessible than the main IPA article. They are explained at {{IPA}}. kwami 23:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
გაუმარჯოს რასტრელი. ეხლა გადავხედე შენს სტატიას ka-ში. მართლა მაგარია. მოდი, დავიწყოთ გადმოტანა. არქიტექტურულ ტერმინოლოგიაში ინგლისურში მოვიკოჭლებ, მაგრამ ალბათ ერთად რამეს მოვაბამთ თავს. აქ ზოგიერთ იუზერს სერიოზული ფსიქიატრიული პრობლემები აწუხებთ და ამათ რომ ვუყუროთ შორს ვერ წავალთ. :)) მე შევეცდები რამე უცხოენოვანი მასალები მოვიპოვო. მაგალითად მახსოვს რომ ალ. დიუმას აქვს ნახსენები ხანძარი რომელმაც თეატრის შენობა იმსხვერპლა (თუ არ ვცდები ერივანსკიზე იყო მაშინ ხომ?). კიდევ აქ ვიკიზე სადღაც იყო ისტორიული ფოტო რომელიც ასახავს წითელი არმიის პარადს თავისუფლებაზე 1921-ში. დროებით, --KoberTalk 08:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
P.S. "ქეიფს" რაც შეეხება, მგონი ბევრს მაინცდამაინც არ აინტერესებს ეს სტატიები ერთად იქნება თუ ცალცალკე. ასე რომ მგონია სტატუს-კვო შენარჩუნებული იქნება. :))) ისე ორივე კარგი სტატიაა. ცოტა სურათებსაც დავძებნი. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kober (talk • contribs) 08:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Niko Pirosmanashvili
editThe Georgian language article on Niko Pirosmanashvili is much larger than the English one.
Any chance you can help translate it to the English article? I created the English article 4 years ago.
Tavisupleba music video
editHi, Vakhtang. Thanks for replying to my questions on the Tavisupleba talk page. I posted some additional questions there and would be very interested in hearing more from you about this video. Richwales (talk) 17:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Sandra Roelofs's proficiency in Georgian?
editHi again. A different subject: In your opinion (as a native speaker of Georgian), how well does Sandra Roelofs speak Georgian? On a scale of, say, 0 to 10 (where 10 would be a native speaker, or someone who would easily "pass for" or "be mistaken for" a native by other natives), how would you rate her command of your language? Richwales (talk) 06:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- Replying to: "Well, she is pretty good in Georgian language, really, with 9 marks. But, because of her dutch accent, i think she'll get 8 marks from me :)" —
- Thanks. What sorts of things, in Roelofs' speech, sound like a "Dutch accent" to you? Does she have trouble with some sounds — such as თ vs. ტ, or ქ vs. კ, or something like ყ that simply doesn't exist in Dutch (and which many non-Georgians might have difficulty recognizing as a human speech sound at all!)? Does she have problems with verbs (something which, aside from the almost completely alien vocabulary, would seem to me to be the biggest obstacle to anyone trying to master Georgian as a second language)?
- My general impression, based on what I've read and heard, is that even if Roelofs couldn't successfully pass herself off as a born-and-bred native speaker of Georgian, she appears to have done an above-average job of mastering one of the hardest languages in the world to learn as an adult. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that she and her husband speak Georgian to each other as much as possible, and I'd assume she probably tries hard to have other people converse with her in Georgian even if they also share English or some other language in common. That's the kind of thing one would generally have to do in order to really become fluent.
- For what it's worth, I've heard a few other Georgian notables speaking English. On my 0-to-10 scale, I would give Mikheil Saakashvili an 8-1/2; in the interview I recently heard, his pronunciation was very good, but he had some trouble with articles (forgetting "the" on occasion), and I wasn't sure if his hemming-and-hawing was because he was groping for the right English word or because he was trying to decide what to say (not just how to say it in English). Nino Burjanadze's command of English is good too, but not quite as good — more article errors than Saakashvili — I think I'd give her about an 8. I was able to hear a few English sentences from Eka Tkeshelashvili (not very clearly, due to voiceover from a Georgian translator), and she sounded very good (about a 9), though I'd want to hear more from her (without any voiceover drowning her out) before trying to give a reliable rating. Richwales (talk) 21:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the additional details on Sandra Roelofs's ability in Georgian. As for your own command of English, it's kind of hard to tell without hearing you, but based on your writing, I'd give you about an 8. You have no real problem getting your meaning across, but you're making some noteworthy mistakes, such as forgetting articles, using double negatives, and mixing up some related words. You seem closer to an "en-3"; I would reserve "en-4" for someone whose command of the language was close to perfect (9 or better on my own 0-10 scale). Richwales (talk) 14:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- And just in case it may be helpful to you, here's your latest posting to my talk page, with the corrections I would propose:
- Hi Rich, you are welcome. "Dutch accent"? She has no
troublesproblemsneithereither with Georgian characteristic sounds,noror with verbs.InBy "accent" I meant Dutch pronunciation, she makes accents (not sure what you meant here?) in her speech that are characteristictoof Dutch. Besides,she'sher speech is not bold and fast enough,asand sometimes she forgets necessary words when speaking. For this reason she wouldn't "be mistaken for" a native :). Butyouryou're right, she has done quite a big job of mastering Georgian. Once she said in a TV show that her son was the best teacher for her, as he had been making remarks about her incorrect pronunciations :)
- Hi Rich, you are welcome. "Dutch accent"? She has no
- By the way, how much would
iI getinon your scale :)? ShouldiI change mybabelBabel en-4 templateinto en-3, or perhaps lower :D? I thinkiI should,iI haven't had any English practice (botheither writingandor speaking) for months :(
- By the way, how much would
- If you'd like me to explain any of the above, let me know and I'll be happy to oblige. Also, I'm not 100% sure I understood what you meant when you said "I meant Dutch pronunciation, she makes accents in her speech that are characteristic [of] Dutch." Are you saying that she is mispronouncing some Georgian sounds, or combinations of sounds, by substituting Dutch sounds that are similar but not quite right? Can you think of any examples? Richwales (talk) 16:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. You brought up two issues here which I'd like to ask some more about.
- First, you said: now I remember that she mispronounces: "წ", "ჭ" & "ყ", and instead [of] them she uses sounds [in] between: "ც-წ", "ჩ-ჭ" & "ხ-ყ".
- I've been listening to some Georgian news broadcasts (my cable TV station has an "international" channel which carries segments from all over the world, including the GPB's "Moambe" news program) — pretty much listening at this point only for the sounds, since I don't understand the language at all — and I've been trying to get an idea of what specific properties of sounds distinguish the Georgian "aspirated" vs. "ejective" consonants.
- English, as I'm sure you know, doesn't have anything like Georgian's ejective consonants, and as far as I know, neither does Dutch. The voiceless stops in English are generally aspirated at the beginning of a word, but not so much in the middle or end of a word, and definitely not aspirated after "s" — consider, for example, the contrast between "top" (aspirated /t/) and "stop" (unaspirated /t/). My limited familiarity with Dutch suggests that voiceless stops in Dutch are uniformly unaspirated — which can create some problems when Dutch people speak English, because an unaspirated stop at the start of an English word is likely to be mis-heard as a voiced stop (e.g., "top", if pronounced with an unaspirated initial /t/, may sound to an English speaker like the nonexistent word "dop"). Some linguists have actually suggested that the primary distinguishing feature in English between unvoiced and voiced stops may in fact be aspiration (or lack thereof), and that the voiced/unvoiced property may be secondary.
- When I hear people speaking Georgian, I notice a lot of "glottal" involvement — a lot of closing up of the back of the throat scattered all through their speech. I assume what I'm hearing is the glottal closing associated with ejective consonants, and this leads me to think that glottal closure during (and possibly also immediately before) an ejective consonant may be as important an aspect of the quality of the consonant as the lack of aspiration is.
- A Dutch speaker would probably not have a lot of trouble doing "aspirated" consonants — these don't exist in Dutch, but they do exist in English and German, languages which many/most Dutch people have heard and studied. But I'd guess a Dutch speaker would have a lot of trouble with ejective consonants and would unconsciously substitute their regular, non-aspirated (but also non-ejective) consonants in place of the ejectives — resulting in something weird that doesn't have the force of an aspirated consonant, but also lacks the glottal closure of an ejective, and a Georgian speaker might not really be sure what he/she had just heard.
- I'm guessing the above is definitely true of stops, and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it applies just as much (and maybe even more so) to affricates (since you specifically mentioned ც/წ and ჩ/ჭ).
- As for ყ, I would think that's probably an even bigger problem for non-native speakers learning Georgian, since nothing even close to this sound exists in English, Dutch, or any other western European language I have any familiarity with.
- As I've listened to those Moambe broadcasts, I've occasionally heard something that sounded like a "pop" or "snap" — like a cork being pulled out of a wine bottle, or the breaking of one of those little plastic bubbles in "bubble wrap" packing material. Part of my brain wants to conclude that what I heard wasn't really a human speech sound at all, but some other activity, or maybe even "static" in the sound track of the TV program. However, I eventually came to realize that this really was a sound of speech after all, and after some experimentation on my own (trying to produce the sound myself), I understand how an "uvular ejective" can sound like a cork popping out of a bottle — since that's very close to what is actually happening in the speaker's mouth!
- Is ყ a sound which Georgian children have a hard time learning to produce right? I can imagine that a child, or even a fluent native speaker speaking quickly or sloppily, could easily produce something like ყხ, კხ, or maybe even a plain კ or ხ in place of a proper ყ.
- Second point — misplaced stress in Roelofs' speech. (Since "accent" can more generally refer to all the qualities of someone's speech taken as a whole, it may be better here to say "stress" when we're talking about some syllables being spoken more forcefully than others.)
- I found it interesting to see you write that Georgian stress goes on the first syllable of every word (whereas Roelofs, as you say, consistently stresses the last syllable of every word). My impression, up till now, had been that Georgian didn't really seem to have very heavily stressed syllables at all. The TV broadcasts I've been listening to sound, to me, mostly like a rapid-fire succession of equally strong sounds — very different from English, Russian, Spanish, German, or (for that matter) Dutch, all of which make a very noticeable distinction between stressed and unstressed syllables. And in Dutch, BTW, stress most often falls either on the first syllable of a word, or else (if the first syllable is one of various prefixes) the second syllable — definitely not the last syllable as a rule.
- I'm not sure what might be causing what you describe hearing in Roelofs' stress pattern, though I could speculate that she's trying very hard not to stress any syllable more than any other, and the end result could be that she's overdoing it and it sounds to you like word-final stress. There could be a precedent for this: French is frequently described as stressing the last syllable of a word, but nowadays French is more often described by linguists as not really having stressed syllables at all.
- Sorry if I'm rambling here. Any thoughts on any of the above? Richwales (talk) 21:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Georgian sounds
editHi. Since we're starting to drift away from specific discussion of Sandra Roelofs, maybe it might be time to start a new section here.
Thanks for the link to the Katie Melua interview, and especially the reference to the ბაყაყი წყალში ყიყინებს tongue twister. The correct word in English, BTW, for the sound a frog makes is croak — not quack as Katie said (quack in English is the sound a duck makes). Croak (which rhymes with smoke or joke) also has a slang meaning (= to die), though people don't normally use the word with that meaning if they're talking about frogs.
The sound Katie produced sounded very raspy (like something in the back of her throat is rattling, or the sound one makes while preparing to spit). Some of the people I've heard on the news seem to be making a sound that is more like a single "pop", "click", or "snap". That sound seems (to me) almost like the speaker was snapping his/her fingers rather than making any sort of noise with his/her mouth. Is this pop/click/snap sound also a ყ? Does it vary depending on where the speaker is from, or what sounds appear just before or after ყ? Are you (a native speaker) even aware of any difference between these two sounds (or these two different versions of what you think of as being the same sound)?
On a different subject, I posted some questions on the "Georgian language" talk page (see here) about the pronunciation of ვ, and I'd be interested in your comments. I'm particularly intrigued by the pronunciation of საქართველო, which sounds (to me) almost like საქართულო (/sakartulɔ/) — very different from the theoretical /sakartʋɛlɔ/ which I had expected to hear. My current thought (sorry if I'm getting too technical here — you're right, linguistics has been a hobby of mine for a long time) is that perhaps the ვ is causing the speaker's lips to become rounded during the pronunciation of the თ, and that this lip-rounding is continuing into the pronunciation of the following vowel (ე) — producing, in rapid speech, something like /sakartʷœlo/. Does that explanation sound believable? Please realize, of course, that since you are a native speaker, you may very possibly be "hearing" this differently than I do, so if what I say I'm hearing doesn't make any sense to you, it's not necessarily your fault (or mine).
Regarding stress in Georgian, I think I can see (actually, hear :-}) how the first syllable of a word / phrase / utterance may indeed be pronounced slightly more strongly or forcefully than the other syllables. In English and most other languages of Europe which have noticeable stress, a stressed syllable is often accompanied by a higher pitch — whereas spoken Georgian seems to me to have very little variation in pitch (I'd call it "monotonous" except that that word has a secondary, and in this case unintended, meaning of "boring"). Stress in English also has a significant effect on the lengths of syllables (see the article on Timing (linguistics) for more on this, whereas in Georgian the clear pattern is for all syllables to have basically the same length. These factors would tend to make stress in Georgian far more subtle and harder to identify than in English, Russian, German, Dutch, or many other European languages. Richwales (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
A bit more stuff: The Moambe broadcast shown on my cable TV this morning covered the "human chain" (I guess I'm seeing these news programs about a week to ten days after the fact), and also a speech by President Saakashvili to a crowd in Freedom Square. I've uploaded about six minutes of the story about the speech to my web site (see here), and I'd like your reactions to a few comments of mine.
First, this clip includes a short interview with Sandra Roelofs — and although I unfortunately couldn't understand what she said, I did notice a couple of things about the way she speaks. She seems to end phrases with a large rise in pitch (much more extreme than native Georgian speakers do), which might explain why she sounds to you like she's stressing words on the last syllable. And her speech doesn't have those glottal stops which I said I've noticed sprinkled liberally throughout native Georgian speech — which probably indicates that she's not pronouncing the ejective consonants correctly, as suggested by what you said earlier about how she mispronounces წ and ჭ.
During Saakashvili's speech, there was one little thing that I noticed very distinctly. At about 2:52 into the clip — or (depending on how your video player shows the time info) at about 15:06 from the start of the original hour-long recording (before I clipped it down to just this one story) — there are two "click" / "pop" / "snap" sounds, very close together, during a short pause in his speaking. I don't think these were bursts of random noise; I'm wondering if perhaps he was stuttering a bit and said two ყ's in rapid succession at the very start of a new sentence. Can you find the point in the speech which I'm talking about? If so, what does it sound like to you?
Although (of course) I couldn't understand 99% of what was going on, I did catch a few scattered things — such as the crowd chanting "მი–შა! მი–შა!" (referring to Saakashvili, right?) near the start of the story; another bit of chanting from the crowd later on ("სა–ქარ–თვე–ლო! სა–ქარ–თვე–ლო!"); Saakashvili saying "საქართველოს ერთიანობის" plus something which I couldn't make out; and, at one point, the reporter saying "თავისუფლების მოედანზე" (not surprising, since that was where the rally was taking place).
More later. I hope I'm not overwhelming you with all of my attempts to analyse your language. And I also hope your family, loved ones, and friends are safe in the midst of all that chaos. Richwales (talk) 05:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Richwales (talk) 16:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that info regarding the news broadcast. I'll have to go back and listen to it again after reading what you wrote.
Interesting to discover that the "click" / "snap" sound I was asking about is კ, and not ყ as I had suspected. (BTW, I think the word you meant to use was "suspect", not "doubt" — "doubt" is a negative term, similar in meaning to "disbelieve", or "suspect that something is false".) But კ doesn't always sound like such a loud "snap" or "click" sound, does it? Does this depend on what comes before or after it; or on how forcefully the speaker is talking; or on some other factors?
I wrote some more thoughts about the pronunciation of საქართველო (and why I seem to be hearing it "wrong") on the Georgian language talk page; we'll see what others say over there. Your mention of the now-obsolete letter ჳ reminded me how similar many Georgian letters are to each other. I would think it would drive you crazy at times, especially when things are written in "capitals" and you aren't helped by having some letters extend above the middle while others descend below the line of writing (e.g., ბ / გ, or კ / პ). When I'm looking at the captions on the Moambe broadcasts (showing names of cities, people, etc.), sometimes it's virtually impossible to distinguish ბ from გ, or ვ from ე, or უ from შ, or კ from პ (or even ჰ) — though that may also be partly because the picture quality I'm seeing is degraded — the signal has to be converted (by the SCOLA satellite station) from the original format (SECAM? PAL?) to the NTSC standard used for TV in the US.
And yes, I agree that the Georgian word for the sound a frog makes does sound more like the actual sound than the English word. The sound of a frog is also sometimes described in English as "ribbit". I recall, some years ago, hearing about a frog at a zoo somewhere that had been named "Rosie the Ribbeter" — a pun on Rosie the Riveter.
By the way, if I may ask, what are you studying in school? Your user page suggests you might possibly be studying to be an architect — or is your main field of interest something else? When I was an undergraduate (back in the 1970's), I had a double major in math/CS and music; I eventually decided to make computers my profession and keep music as a hobby. Richwales (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Regarding "suspect" vs. "doubt", I should probably add that "suspect" sometimes has a negative meaning (as in, "I suspected his motives", meaning I had a feeling that he was up to no good). However, when the object of "suspect" is a subordinate clause, I'd say it has a more neutral meaning of believing something without strong proof — as in "your post made me suspect that you were hearing კ instead of ყ, and my suspicions were confirmed when I listened to the recording". "Doubt", on the other hand, always refers to being skeptical or disbelieving — as in, for example, the passage in the Bible where the apostle Peter was told to go to meet Cornelius, the righteous Roman centurion: "Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them." (Acts 10:20) Richwales (talk) 06:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Here's an example of a sentence using both "suspect" (in this case as a noun) and "doubt": He's the prime suspect, but I doubt he really did it. (Meaning, "The authorities think he's probably guilty, but I don't agree with them.") Remember, BTW, that when "suspect" is a verb, it's stressed on the second syllable (suspect), but when it's a noun, it's stressed on the first syllable (suspect).
I figured you (a native speaker) probably have a lot less trouble reading your alphabet than someone learning the language would, since someone who really knows a language can subconsciously anticipate what's coming, throw out alternatives that are simply impossible or don't make sense in the current context, and (in effect) know what a word or phrase is just by a casual glance, without having to consciously focus on each and every letter (or, in my case, pause my TiVo so I can study a caption before it disappears from the TV screen) This is also why native speakers can understand poor-quality audio on the radio or telephone, whereas someone learning the language would be lost unless he/she were able to clearly hear every sound. (That reminds me of an old joke about a man who learned English by listening to the Voice of America on shortwave radio: he could reproduce all the sounds perfectly — especially all the hisses, pops, and fadeouts. :-})
Getting back to the theoretical vs. actual pronunciation of საქართველო: When I said what I heard sounded something like /sakartʷœlo/, I was talking about the open-mid front rounded vowel /œ/ — the vowel written as eu in French, or ö in German — a sound which (at least officially) doesn't exist in either Georgian or English. When I saw you write საქართოელო, I feared maybe you had misunderstood me and thought I was talking about a diphthong /oɛ/ or /oɪ/, which is not what I meant.
I don't think the pronunciation I've been analysing is due to this one speaker being nervous or stumbling over his words, because I keep hearing this same pronunciation in many different speakers. The GPB broadcast shown yesterday on my cable system's SCOLA channel included what I would probably describe as a patriotic public service announcement, with a bunch of scenes showing the Georgian land and culture, and with numerous individuals, each briefly expressing his/her feelings and/or saying "მე მიყვარს საქართველო" (meaning "I love Georgia", right?) — and as best I could tell, each and every one of them pronounced საქართველო in the manner I've been describing. (BTW, I also listened to the pronunciation of მიყვარს and noted some small variations in the ყ sound as spoken by various people.)
One other thing (getting back to something we talked about a while back). I've been starting to try to figure out the way Georgian verbs work — I've got a really long way to go, of course, because they're very complicated — but I wanted to return for a moment to that expression shown at the end of the national anthem video (საქართველო გაბრწყინდება!). If I understand what's going on, that verb (გაბრწყინდება) has a second-person ("you") subject, right? And that would mean the expression should really be translated, not as "Georgia will shine", but "Georgia, you will shine". If it were really "Georgian will shine", it would be something like საქართველოს აბრწყინდება — since, apparently, this verb is in that "inverted" form where the subject is marked as if it were an object (and vice versa) — but since საქართველო is actually a vocative here, it's not really the "subject" of the verb and therefore doesn't take the object suffix -ს. Am I right, or am I missing some detail here? Richwales (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC) [above theory was completely wrong, as you pointed out]
- Hi. Yeah, I'm not surprised that I got totally mixed up in my attempt to analyse that verb. Oh, well. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
- I think this issue of the vowel sounds in საქართველო may be analogous to a situation in English where there are two "different" versions of the /u/ vowel sound in a word like moon — one version pronounced with the lips pushed forward and rounded (the way you would probably expect the sound to be made) — and another version pronounced with the lips relaxed and half-open in a neutral position. These two versions of /u/ are equivalent (allophones) to native speakers in North America, and my experience suggests to me that most speakers are not even aware that there are two different ways to say the sound, and even if the difference is pointed out or demonstrated to them, they may not be able to "hear" it. But when I studied Romanian some years ago, I ran into this issue head-on because, in Romanian, these two sounds corresponding to the two different versions of English /u/ both exist, and they are two completely separate phonemes (spelled u and î / â). Even now, when I hear a Romanian word like România (which contains this "unrounded" sound), part of my brain (the English-speaking part) still tries to insist that I really heard the nonexistent Romanian word Romunia.
- Just so I'm not confused, is that phrase you quoted ("my Set") a reference to the ancient Egyptian god Set (the god of chaos) — that is, a suggestion that some sort of divine intervention (or a situation being compared to divine intervention) is preventing someone from noticing something that is right in front of them and should be obvious (but isn't)? Sort of like how Christ, right after His resurrection from the dead, encountered some of His followers on the road to Emmaus and walked with them for a long distance, but "their eyes were holden [= held] that they should not know him" (Luke 24:16).
- Someone I met on the "Georgian language" talk page — Tskapo, in France — and I are going to try to have a video call on Skype later today, and I might (or might not) end up with some more insights on this vowel sound issue. I'll be interested, for example, in hearing how he pronounces a word like ქართველები, where the ე that sounds "different" to my ear is followed by another ე, instead of ო as in საქართველო. Is the mutation of the vowel in -თვე- inherent in this combination of sounds, no matter what follows, or is it being influenced by what is coming right afterwards? Maybe I'll be able to tell after hearing how Tskapo pronounces other words with this series of sounds. Richwales (talk) 15:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hi again. Tskapo and I had a lengthy Skype conversation earlier today, and my tentative conclusion right now is that what I've been asking about is probably a case of allophones of a single phoneme — sounds that are perceived as very different by me (an English speaker), but which a Georgian speaker perceives as being equivalent ("a difference that makes no difference is no difference") or even indistinguishable ("my Set doesn't want me to hear it"). This is, in general, a well-known phenomenon — one of the factors contributing to a foreign accent when someone tries to learn a new language as an adult — but there's probably not any real point in pursuing it further for purposes of the Georgian language article.
- I made a one-minute video clip of that "მე მიყვარს საქართველო" PSA which I mentioned earlier. You may very possibly have seen this already, but if not, you can see it here. If you have the time and interest, I'd welcome a chance to see a transcript and English translation of what the people are saying — along with identification of any of the people who might happen to be well-known personalities in Georgia, identification of any specific places or buildings, and any other thoughts or reactions you might have to this piece. Richwales (talk) 04:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hi again. Tskapo helped me with a transcript and translation of the "მე მიყვარს საქართველო" video. I can share with you what I've got so far; let me know. I understand the people in the video are all well known in Georgia, though I'd be grateful for any help identifying any of them. I'm thinking there may possibly be a way to incorporate some material about this video into the 2008 South Ossetian War article. Richwales (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- I just sent you an e-mail message with my analysis of this video so far. Let me know if the e-mail doesn't arrive. Richwales (talk) 18:26, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Banak Cathedral
edit
Please do not delete content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Banak Cathedral, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear constructive, and has been reverted. Please make use of the sandbox if you'd like to experiment with test edits. Thank you. Serouj (talk) 21:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Furthermore, there is sufficient reason to believe that you are the editor behind IP 94.43.133.96 that deleted mentions of the Armenian origins of the Banak Cathedral. Please refrain from making any future such changing to the Banak Cathedral article without first consulting its Talk Page. Good day. Serouj (talk) 21:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Banak is an original Armenian cathedral. That it may have had a Georgian restoration does not make it a Georgian cathedral! It was built by and used by Armenians! We can add its Georgian restoration and later usage. However, by convention, we keep the original name of the cathedral and we mention its later Georgian names. Serouj (talk) 06:43, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Батальон им. Баграмяна
editГамарджоба. В русской википедии есть статья Батальон им. Баграмяна. Армянские участники попытались доказать, что этот батальон не убивал грузин. Не могли бы написать про то, как батальон имени Баграмяна резал грузинкое население в Абхазии. Я буду вам очень сильно благодарен. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.237.44.145 (talk) 10:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- Гагимарджос. Я посмотрел статью ru:Батальон им. Баграмяна и ни где не видел доказательство обратного от Армянских участников? Но все равно спасибо за информацию и все таки добавлю кой какие факты об этнической чистке со стороны батальона.--Rastrelli F (talk) 10:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- Мадлоба. Просто участник Талех откатил участника Grag (в русской википедии идёт армяно-азербайджанская война, а Grag везде армян делает "милыми"). Хочу показать ещё эту статью. Азербайджанские участники написали статью ru:Армянский сепаратизм в Грузии, дальше этого они не могут писать статьи. Спасибо, что добавите информации о зверствах армян в Абхазии. Ещё раз спасибо, большое. Это очень будет полезно (особенно для армян).—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.237.47.237 (talk) 15:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- Можно ли добавить источники на грузинском? --Rastrelli F (talk) 06:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- Думаю, что можно. ВЫ можете попробывать. Здесь есть статьи про этнические чистки грузин в Абхазии, неплохо было бы их написать в русской википедии (перевести т.е.). Если есть факты ещё какой-нибудь резни (помимо 1990-х и резни немцев в Катериненфельде), устроенной в Грузии, то пишите (можете подключить русскоязычных участников проекта Грузия), это будет очень полезно, поскольку грузинская тематика очень слабая в русской википедии.
- Можно ли добавить источники на грузинском? --Rastrelli F (talk) 06:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- Мадлоба. Просто участник Талех откатил участника Grag (в русской википедии идёт армяно-азербайджанская война, а Grag везде армян делает "милыми"). Хочу показать ещё эту статью. Азербайджанские участники написали статью ru:Армянский сепаратизм в Грузии, дальше этого они не могут писать статьи. Спасибо, что добавите информации о зверствах армян в Абхазии. Ещё раз спасибо, большое. Это очень будет полезно (особенно для армян).—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.237.47.237 (talk) 15:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Грузиннский алфавит
editГамарджоба. Участник Divot, который является сторонником армян и азербайджанофобом, теперь добрался до Грузинского алфавита (в русской и английской википедии он гадит). В русской википедии нет грузинских участников, потому у него руки свободны, а в английской его откатывает Кобер. Не дайте, чтоб он и грузин загадил, как он это сделал с азербайджанцами в русской википедии. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.237.47.3 (talk) 09:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC) На защиту грузинского алфавита пришли азербайджанцы. User:Grandmaster (он и в русской википедии очень активен) если не бросит дело, то нам удастся защитить грузинское письмо от армян и Дивота. Так, что посмотрим. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.141.113.37 (talk) 18:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
translation of Niko Pirosmani
editThe English language page for Niko Pirosmani needs some expansion from the Georgian language page. I'd appreciate it if you could help out.--T1980 (talk) 12:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Review the Georgian Wikipedia article about the Mormon Church?
editHi. I was wondering if you could do me a favour and take a look at the Georgian Wikipedia article about the Mormon Church (უკანასკნელი დღეების წმინდანთა იესო ქრისტეს ეკლესია).
I glanced at the article just now — and even after five years, my proficiency in Georgian is still very elementary, so I ran the text through Google Translate (which doesn't do a particularly good job with material in Georgian, but it's usually better than nothing at all).
I noticed two things that seemed suspicious to me in the current text of the article. First, the article says that one of the tenets of the Mormon religion is შაბათის დაცვა. I was worried that this might be misleading, since our day of worship and rest is Sunday, not Saturday. In English, Mormons say that they "keep the Sabbath", even though they know that they are talking about Sunday (and not the Jewish Sabbath, which is observed on Saturday). And, of course, I know შაბათი is the ordinary Georgian word for Saturday. Would some other phrase other than შაბათის დაცვა be better in order to convey the correct meaning?
Also, the article tries to describe our beliefs as follows: "მორმონები" თაყვანს სცემენ მამა ღმერთს იესო ქრისტეს სახელით. მათ სწამთ რომ იესო არის ძე ღვთისა და კაცობრიობის მხსნელი. მორმონებს იესო ქრისტე არ სწამთ ღმერთად , ისინი არც სამებას აღიარებენ. I'm not sure მორმონებს იესო ქრისტე არ სწამთ ღმერთად is an accurate way to put it — although it is correct that Mormons do not believe in the Trinity (as defined in the Nicene Creed), we do consider Jesus Christ to be divine and co-equal with the Father (i.e., we are not Arians). It would probably be best to say that Mormons believe in God the Father, and His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit), but that they do not accept the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
I also see that the Georgian Wikipedia article currently has a "stable version" (see this link) and a version that is "pending review" (see this link). The differences between these two versions can be seen via this link. Perhaps you could take a look at these two versions and see whether the "pending review" version is, in fact, better than the stable version?
If you feel you need more background about Mormonism in order to properly evaluate the Georgian article, I have written a brief summary draft (User:Richwales/Drafts/LDS Church), which is a translation of an article I wrote for the Romanian Wikipedia several years ago.
Thanks for any help on this. If you feel you aren't able to review this article — due to lack of time, or for any other reason — I'll understand; let me know and I'll try to find some other Georgian speakers who might be willing to do it. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 01:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Asian 10,000 Challenge invite
editHi. The Wikipedia:WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge and Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like South East Asia, Japan/China or India etc, much like Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. At some stage we hope to run some contests to benefit Asian content, a destubathon perhaps, aimed at reducing the stub count would be a good place to start, based on the current Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon which has produced near 200 articles in just three days. If you would like to see this happening for Asia, and see potential in this attracting more interest and editors for the country/countries you work on please sign up and being contributing to the challenge! This is a way we can target every country of Asia, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant! Thank you. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 02:22, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for April 20
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Need Stewards Help in ka.wiki
edit@Richwales: and @Rschen7754: I am addressing you as stewards regarding sysop rights abuse in ka.wiki. You both are more or less familiar with ka.wiki (Rich had/has long cross-wiki activity with ka.wiki, and Rschen is aware of dispute between sysop Mikheil and User Deu (which btw ended with permanent block on Deu) and Mikheil's attempt to be elected as steward) as I need your advise - what to do in case when all the admins in ka.wiki are suppressing free of speech and wiki activity which are against their personal opinion? Right now I and two other users (Zangala, Gobrona) are blocked because of having different opinion [1], [2] and/or reacting on sysop rights abuse locally. My attempt to gain wiki colleagues attention on this matter was closed by admin Otogi (reason states: "Serves to destabilize") and the whole forum section was protected from editing, preventing other users to comment on the issue, besides deleting their protests. Relying on your advise, Please help!--Rastrelli F (talk) 09:56, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I can offer any direct help. I am not a steward, and I've done only a tiny amount of work on the Georgian Wikipedia — after a decade, my Georgian language skills are still minimal (I'm tangentially reminded of the story of how the Devil supposedly spent seven years trying to learn Basque before giving up). — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 15:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm no longer a steward. If you can prove (in a brief and concise manner) that administrators have done something that affects the entire integrity of the community review process (example: interfering with their own desysop discussion) I would go to m:SN and make your case there. Otherwise, I would continue the previous RFC or start a new RFC on Meta. I apologize for not being more optimistic, but there unfortunately is no group tasked with fixing a wiki like this otherwise. --Rschen7754 17:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Richwales: and @Rschen7754: thank you both for your time! Rschen, I appreciate your suggestion and I would like to try it (I'll make myself brief to appeal stewards), as there are no admins left in ka.wiki without prejudice to the case, to whom I could address for help. All of them are already involved in conflict and are acting I believe against wiki-policy (there are records). --Rastrelli F (talk) 08:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm no longer a steward. If you can prove (in a brief and concise manner) that administrators have done something that affects the entire integrity of the community review process (example: interfering with their own desysop discussion) I would go to m:SN and make your case there. Otherwise, I would continue the previous RFC or start a new RFC on Meta. I apologize for not being more optimistic, but there unfortunately is no group tasked with fixing a wiki like this otherwise. --Rschen7754 17:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC)