Ray1983a

reliable sources

• Binksternet Can I get a second opinion on the Deep Purple related edits by this user? My sense is they are okay because they are factually correct and sourced to stuff that isn't obviously deprecated in WP:RSP. However, given previous discussions here, I'm concerned a WP:ICANTHEARYOU issue might be present. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:13, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Ray1983a has been using chart stats websites for song release dates. Is that what you mean? I don't have a big problem with it. Binksternet (talk) 20:29, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

The Dutch charts is the offical website by MegaCharts and is part of an 'umbrella' site, covering French, Belgian, Spanish etc, charts. I've been careful not to use the Chart entry-dates, but the site gives the release dates which can also be checked by the mention of Label and catalogue number for the countries in which it was released/date is known.

for example; Toto- Africa 7" Single A|B CBS CBS A2510 [uk] 25/06/1982 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray1983a (talk • contribs) 20:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine. As you can see above this page, there have been multiple instances of editors trying to contact you, and escalating to a short block. That's why it's a good idea to discuss things if a disagreement or confusion arises. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I realise that now. I hadn't realised earlier sources were unreliable. I've been more careful to doublecheck info

The accuracy of release dates from the Dutch Charts website is questionable. For example, it shows the release date for Van Halen's single "You Really Got Me" as 31/1/1978[1], but it had already entered the Billboard Hot 100 on 1/28 [2] (p. 108, No. 91) so it was released sometime prior (with the reporting lag, maybe a week or two earlier). Chart sites may be reliable for chart statistics, but better sources should be used for discographical info. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:54, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi, that's because in this case, the Dutch release is shown as 31/01. This can be checked by the catalogue number, WB 17107. The Cat no. for the US is WBS 8515. Therefor I did not edit "You Really Got Me".

In most cases there's an additional (us), (uk), (aus) -for Australia) or (Ger)-for Germany) present, right after the Label and Catalogue number.

Moreover, I always double-check Billboard and the UK official charts for entry dates to be sure. If they do not work out, but the label and cat No. do, the release date logically does not apply to US or UK singles, but perhaps from EU, and I will not edit. Dutchcharts is the page I'm using, but the info is also available on the Swiss hitparade.ch and austriancharts.at for example. It's the same database, so it's not strictly Dutch info. Ray1983a (talk) 20:35, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Several edits (other user names & IPs) are not so careful about double checking to ensure that the dates are applicable to U.S. releases. Where does the "same database" get its U.S. release date info? It seems easier (and less likely for misinterpretation) to source the info directly rather than from a third party. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:36, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, I'm not aware of any US music websites with a database like this one, for example, Billboard does not provide release dates, just the date when songs entered the charts, as does Official UK charts (and MusicVF - which is relying on those two).

dutchcharts (or austriancharts, or hitparade.ch) is the official recognized charts website for those countries, so my feeling is either they source directly from record companies, or authorized discography books.

I'm not doubting the info on their site, though I can understand that because it's a European site, it might be seen as (partially) unreliable. As you are the second editor who raised questions about it, I have contacted the website and asked where the US and UK info is sourced from Ray1983a (talk) 15:09, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I doubt a business like hung medien, who seems to be behind many of these websites, would invest the extra time and expense to research info that has no apparent bearing on its charts. A lot of hung's info appears to be user-generated from its forum posts. An IP asked whether one of its sites is reliable for release dates at the reliable sources noticeboard. There is a lot of effort to add non-chart info and links from these sites to WP articles. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:54, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

In that case, I will track down some discography/biography books from the Rotterdam library, see what they can tell me, and make corrections to my edits where needed. If the info was user-generated, with any luck, the release-dates added on the Hung Medien sites were all made in good faith and correct for the respective countries to which they apply. For now, I will stop from editting further using this source. Thanks for the info! Ray1983a (talk) 16:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Many user-generated sites may be correct, but we have no way of knowing. If indeed there are discography/biography books with release details, then they should be used and cited. Otherwise, leave the chart sites for chart positions. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:18, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Small font code

Please stop putting the HTML tag for small fonts into the infobox. At MOS:SMALLFONT, the guideline says no small font in the infobox. Thank you. Binksternet (talk) 22:32, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Understood

dmy dates

Please, don't transform dates from mdy to dym solely because you are not living in the United States. Many of the pages you have modified are about American topics and WP:NATIONALTIES applies. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 03:32, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

my apologies, I thought Wikipedia had moved to date-month-year as a standard.Ray1983a (talk) 03:45, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Supplying page number

Hi Ray1983a. When using a book as a source, like you did here, please provide the page number using the |paga= parameter. Please also follow MOS:CITEPUNCT: All ref tags should immediately follow the text to which the footnote applies, with no intervening space. Have fun editing! --Muhandes (talk) 09:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

While I'm at it, if you are linking to the book from the Internet Archive, I'm sure you noted that you can link directly to the page. In this case, I supposed the page was 302 so I corrected it, please verify. --Muhandes (talk) 10:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the help! ~~ Ray1983a (talk) 14:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

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February 2023

Hello, I noticed that you may have recently made edits to Screaming for Vengeance while logged out. Wikipedia's policy on multiple accounts usually does not allow the use of both an account and an IP address by the same person in the same setting and doing so may result in your account being blocked from editing. Additionally, making edits while logged out reveals your IP address, which may allow others to determine your location and identity. If this was not your intention, please remember to log in when editing. I see you have been editing logged-out with the IP range Special:Contributions/191.57.21.22/19 intermittently during the last few months. Binksternet (talk) 19:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I did not make those edits.. could it be my account is hacked some way? It appears it copy-pasted an earlier edit of mine from months ago Ray1983a (talk) 20:07, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you're hacked. It is much simpler to copy your work than to hack your account. Binksternet (talk) 23:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Metal Archives as a source

Greetings. Please do not use Metal Archives/Encyclopaedia Metallum as a source for release dates or reviews, as it has long been considered unreliable and user-generated per WP:ALBUM/SOURCE. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

thank you, understood.Ray1983a (talk) 03:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

July 2023

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you add unsourced or poorly sourced material to Wikipedia, as you did at Rock the House Live!. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:46, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Not unsourced at all..as a matter of fact I added Martin Strong's work on discographies, and removed wrong dates that showed the entry on the charts, and where possible add the actual date. There is a tendency on wikipedia to add the entry-date on the charts as "release date", which is obviously wrongRay1983a (talk) 15:52, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring

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ANI-notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:33, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

August 2023

Please do not add or change content without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. FMSky (talk) 21:01, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Master of Reality release date

Hello Ray1983a! Please check the Master of Reality album article as there is an IP changing the release date from August to July 21, 1971, repeating that old misinformation propagated by Black Sabbath's own Facebook. I even tried to argue using the LP's entry in the UK charts as justification, but the IP may not stop. 2804:14D:5CC4:484C:610F:FCBC:75CC:4831 (talk) 14:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Now the Martin C. Strong reference has been removed with the argument that "the source says nothing about Black Sabbath" nonsense? Please take a look there. 2804:14D:5CC4:484C:610F:FCBC:75CC:4831 (talk) 14:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I think the page should be locked. why are you using an anonymous IP address? More sources say July 1971 than August 1971, Quit calling for back up which is a violation of Wikipedia policy WP:MEAT 2601:3C5:8200:97E0:B88F:BB3E:D308:57FA (talk) 05:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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"Shoot High Aim Low"

Source for this change, please. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 22:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

December 2023

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Aftermath (Rolling Stones album), without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Also, Mother's Little Helper Tkbrett (✉) 02:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Request

@Ray1983a Hi Ray, I removed a unreliable source on In the Zone album because it said the album was released in Argentina 3 weeks before the US release. November 1 also falls on Saturday which make this impossible. Could you revert it back and explain that albums can't come out on weekends? I would appreciate it. Jade505 (talk) 01:43, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ray1983a Hi thanks man, also on Britney Spears: In the Zone E.P and Greatest Hits: My Prerogative it is using that Argentina source with April 1, 2004 and November 1, 2004. Could you fix that aswell Jade505 (talk) 12:59, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ray1983a Hi do you think it would a good idea if we remove those sources of those pages, It's just that editors could click on them and set it back to that --Jade505 (talk) 18:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Better to keep the sources, even though in these cases better sources are now provided. I think it's argued enough that "1 Nov" and "1 April" etc are nonsense-dates and better sources like RIAA are in place to give the US or international release date. BPI, the British equivallent of the American RIAA, also often use 01-(month) as release date, while it is obvious this is just a placeholder. So to just cite the month of release should do it Ray1983a (talk) 20:03, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

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Machine Head (album)

Hello Ray1983a, sorry for the inconvenience, but would you please take a look at the Machine Head article as there is an account with 80 edits that continues to insist that the correct release date is March 25, as you may already know it was a Saturday... I added the Martin C. Strong's book (Great Rock Discography) citation that says April 1972, knowing that the album entered the UK charts on April 15 of that year. 2804:14D:5CC4:4BB3:C55D:7D20:7780:F36F (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

well, the LP was very likely released on 31 March 1972, except perhaps due to Good Friday, it might've available a day earlier, 30 March. Can't really say what the logistics around Good Fridays were 50 yrs ago in England.

But as of yet, I have no strong source for this, so I just leave it be Ray1983a (talk) 17:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it really could have been released on 31 March 1972 or a day earlier and in this case The Great Rock Discography reports a wrong month of release. But now to add this 30/31 March date we need a good material like a magazine or something. I recommend Record Mirror magazine, you can find some 1972 editions available in PDF on the World Radio History website. Here's the link: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Record_Mirror.htm 2804:14D:5CC4:4BB3:4DFE:181B:F6CB:C27B (talk) 06:55, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Record Mirror saves! 2804:14D:5CC4:4BB3:659F:EA63:46CF:3BE0 (talk) 09:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

haha, yes it does Ray1983a (talk) 10:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

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Johnny the Fox

Hi, can you point out where in the source you added to Johnny the Fox it says the album was released on the 22nd. Thanks, Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Turns out I was mistaken. Elton John's "Blue Moves" was reviewed in Record Mirror on 23 October 1976, and BPI lists this album as released on Friday 22 October.

Therefor "Johnny the Fox", which was reviewed in the 16 Oct issue, was released on the 15th.

Basically all albums on major labels were released on Fridays in this era in the UK and Ireland, it was the default release day of the industry. So Popoff simply made an error Ray1983a (talk) Ray1983a (talk) 22:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

So that's not a source for the release date? You've deduced a release date from a review in RM, which obviously isn't enough. I know, you've often said albums were only released on Fridays, but I've never seen any actual source for that. Specifically, you need an actual source to verify the date Johnny the Fox was released. Maybe Popoff made an error, maybe he didn't – we don't have any evidence for that either. To avoid this slow-burn edit war going on indefinitely, I'll change it to "October 1976", because we at least agree on that. We can't synthesise a date through guesswork and a record review. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough.

That the industry in the UK released albums and singles on Fridays during the 1960s and 1970s is pretty much common knowledge among record-collectors and discographers.

EMI started releasing on Mondays in 1980. Other labels gradually made the change to Mondays between '84 and '87.

Open up any 'Music Week' magazine from the 70s and you'll find the 'New Album"-section announcing albums for release on Friday that week.

Mic Smith's research on Genesis also reveals all their issues were released on Fridays [[3]]

We have the BPI- database (BPI is the industry), by checking the release dates, it's clear they were on Friday.

For single- releases we have many promo-discs with release dates, all pointing to Fridays. For example;

https://www.discogs.com/release/10413594-Mud-Rocket/image/SW1hZ2U6Mjg5MTE5OTU=

(released on 19 July 1974, a Friday)

So I would say we have an abundance of evidence for this claim. Perhaps it should be made a guideline of wiki for music pages.

The US and other markets had a different policy Ray1983a (talk) 19:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd say trying to make it a guideline of some sort would be a good idea, and all the relevant verifications can be made there. It does seem to be the default day of the week for releases, but I would just say it doesn't allow for any anomalies, like strikes or last-minute hitches resulting in a delay. Just from an encylopedic point of view, each date should have a source, but I know that's not always possible, especially when you're going back a long way. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

That's true, I am careful in making these edits using UK calenders. When there is no direct source, the month of release will suffice.

For example, Good Friday was not a release day early on, but it appears gradually it became one, as shops started to open that day.

There are also (Monday-) Bank Holidays in England, when there is no trade and there is Easter Monday and Christmas, on which records were not released for obvious reasons. But for the most part, BPI and magazines have taken these exeptions into account.

Strikes, delays etc from long ago are almost impossible to check, but there should be an official release date for every record nontheless, which is what the recordlabel communicates through press releases (which end up with the magazines), promo discs for radio, magazine ads and the like. We have no choice but to rely on that Ray1983a (talk) 20:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Triumph

Hi Ray, i would revert back to your October 1980 release date for Triumph, those book sources are highly unreliable as they just use release dates written online without any investigation into it. Cena332 (talk) 08:40, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. Well, looking at the date when the LP hit the charts (11 Oct for the UK, 18 Oct for the US), the 26 Sept date looks reliable. Albums were released on Fridays in that era in the UK.

There is a possibility that the LP was first released in the UK, as the group had a healthy following there in those years, and perhaps the LP was out in the US around 6/7 October, for it to enter the charts on the 18th Ray1983a (talk) 14:14, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

"Here Comes the Rain Again"

Hi - you're right, the 12th was my error in copying it down from the NME. But it was definitely Friday the 13th, not Monday... see here on page 4 of that week's Record Mirror: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/UK/Record-Mirror/80s/84/Record-Mirror-1984-01-07-OCR.pdf. Richard3120 (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for flagging! Ray1983a (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi

Hi Ray, are you meant too add the single release date or radio release date to the Infobox? I added the radio release date to it [4] but i'm not sure if that is right. Cena332 (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Cena, I would argue to put the actual (physical) release date for singles in the infobox for a number of reasons.

Nowadays, there is no physical release for singles to speak off, so a Music Video online or addition to Spotify would count as 'release date' which is probably when radio will pick up the song.

However, in earlier periods, promo-copies were send to radiostation for advance airplay. There are examples when a song was a full month or longer around on radio-airplay-lists, yet there was no actual retail record that the public could buy.

So, I would say, when the retail CD or vinyl actually hit the stores, that should be considered the Release date. With a mention for when the song hit radio in the "Release History" box.

You can often find the difference in dates on pages like https://musicvf.com/ Ray1983a (talk) 00:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok that makes sense; would you be able to update it for me :) Cena332 (talk) 19:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Master of Reality's release

Hi Ray1983a! Once again, a user has changed the Master of Reality release date back to that 21 July date (which we know is incorrect)... I know you have added a material that says the album was released on 6 August and that material wasn't removed from the article. I even argued that the 21/07 date has already been contradicted in a recent discussion on the article's talk page, but they simply reverted me by ignoring my edit summary. 2804:14D:5CC4:4BB3:BDF0:F832:88E0:DA8D (talk) 17:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

thanks for flagging Ray1983a (talk) 17:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Music Week

Hi @Ray1983a, regarding your edit on the Tango in the Night page, I'm not entirely clear what possible copyright infringement you're referring to. What was the warning you received? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello Friend (song): Revision history

I added the release date for "Hello Friend" by Chris Rea with ref to Music Week at the WRH site

1 August 2024‎ Ajsmith141 Improve reference; as excellent a resource World Radio History is, some editors have raised questions over possible copyright issues by directly linking to it Ray1983a (talk) 11:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ray1983a, that seems pretty nonspecific, and I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 13:31, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

OK thanks, understood Ray1983a (talk) 15:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

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Poison

Greetings. Regarding this change in date, RIAA still says it was released on 27 April. Per Template:Infobox album, the earliest release date should be used, so not the later UK one. Hope that helps. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Doubts have been risen from various editors about the release date info on RIAA.

But OK since we don't have an alternative US date available, I guess we have to stick with this one Ray1983a (talk) 14:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Original research

I've noticed your recent activity changing music release dates and want to make sure you are fully aware of and adhering to the Wikipedia policy of no original research and how it applies to what you're doing. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 22:11, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of published material to articles as you apparently did to Red (King Crimson album). Please cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Thank you. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 00:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

"Red" release date was sourced through DGM for 1 October 1974, which could point to the US release date, as it is well-established that LP's in the UK came out on Fridays (1 Oct was a Tuesday).

6 October might be the result of citogenesis where a erroneous date on wikipedia got picked up and then used again as a source here, the same happened to Master of Reality Ray1983a (talk) 15:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)