Rhudson

== Your Edit to Wendy Bagwell and the Sunliters ==

I noticed that you deleted the statement that Wendy Bagwell and the Sunliters was the first Southern gospel group to play Carnegie Hall, in 1962, with the note "Not the first gospel group to play Carnegie Hall by a long shot (first was in 1950)." Might the Sunliters nonetheless have been the first Southern group, as previously stated in the article? The statement in the article seems to have been pretty well-sourced. It would also be helpful if you let me know how you know this, as it might lead to a more useful statement in the Sunliters article. John M Baker (talk) 21:41, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond! I haven't used this function in Wikipedia very much, and had not seen your comment until now. I know the information about Carnegie Hall because I am Carnegie Hall's Associate Archivist, and deal with the history of the hall and all of the performances here on a detailed level every day. While I'm not an expert on Gospel music, per se, I can add a few clarifiers to my edit, and perhaps this will help.

The concert I referred to from 1950 was the first of what became an annual (for several years running) Gospel concert produced here by Joe Bostic, with Mahalia Jackson as the headline artist. As I look more closely, I believe most of the performers and groups on the 1950 show came from the North (New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburg, etc.), but I've identified at least one group, the Kings of Harmony, that appeared on the second one of the Bostic events on Nov. 25, 1951, that might qualify. The group was formed in Birmingham, AL in 1929, and while they seems to have gone through a number of personnel changes, and changes of home base, between that time and their first appearance at Carnegie Hall, and were in fact based in New York at the time, their roots were clearly in the South. Whether or not a Gospel music scholar would refer to them as a "Southern gospel group" or not, I cannot say. Here is my source for the info on the Kings of Harmony: http://www.arts.state.al.us/actc/quartet/KINGS1.html

If the Kings of Harmony couldn't truly be called the first Southern Gospel group to appear here, then on October 4, 1953, the Gospel Harmonettes, also out of Birmingham, AL, performed as part of Bostic's 4th annual "Negro Gospel and Religious Music Festival"; also on that program was The Harmonizing Four, out of Richmond, VA, and the Dixie Hummingbirds (originally formed in Greenville, SC, but by 1953 based in Philadelphia).

On September 29, 1957, the Swanee Quintet of Augusta, GA performed on a show called "Big Gospel Cavalcade"; also on the program were the Five Blind Boys of Alabama.

I could continue, but I think this shows my point about why Wendy Bagwell and the Sunliters were not the first Southern Gospel group to appear at Carnegie Hall "by a long shot" -- but my apologies for not sourcing my comment properly, and for not providing a more complete explanation. I hope this helps remedy that! Rhudson (talk) 20:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Black Gospel Music at Carnegie Hall

I am one of the archivists at Carnegie Hall, and can verify that the previously cited source for the first presentation of black gospel music at the Hall, The Joe Bostic Story: First Black American Radio Announcer, is incorrect. Both Sister Rosetta Tharpe and Mitchell's Christian Singers, pioneering gospel performers, appeared on John Hammond's December 23, 1938 "From Spirituals to Swing" concert at Carnegie Hall.

This is supported by our own program records, and can be verified not only by checking the commercially available recording of the concert (Vanguard Records 70169), but also by materials posted on the Carnegie Hall website (http://www.carnegiehall.org/honor/history/index.aspx -- click on red button under the 1930 entry under "Notable Carnegie Hall Performances"; also http://www.carnegiehall.org/honor/list/index.aspx, a general listing by decade of African American performers that have appeared at Carnegie Hall).Rhudson (talk) 17:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I have no wish to enter into any kind of "my Carnegie Hall Gospel show was bigger than yours" dispute. Why do you think that The Joe Bostic Story: First Black American Radio Announcer, is incorrect? I was not claiming that the 1950 concert was the first, nor does that book. I was suggesting it was the first major concert of black music. As Carnegie Hall's Associate Archivist I would have thought you could easily devise a way of including both the 1950 concert and the 1938 concert? I wonder do you have any information on the tickets sales for these two concerts? I would have thought the 1950 concert is notable for at least two reasons - that it had a headlining major star Mahalia Jackson, and that it was the first of the Joe Bostic series. I suggested that you add the Mitchell's Christian Singers 1938 concert as a separate entry, if you deem it notable, not that you use it to remove my own fully sourced addition. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

The timeline in the link you give is very useful and suggests that it would be worthwhile creating a "Musical History" subsection in the article, not least for the major concerts of African-American music. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not trying to create disputes, only to correct the facts. Your original edit read as follows: "In 1950, black gospel was featured for the first time when Joe Bostic produced the “Negro Gospel and Religious Music Festival”, including a performance by gospel legend Mahalia Jackson." All I'm saying is that this does not gibe with the verifiable historical record, so I removed it. It was not the first time that black gospel was featured at Carnegie Hall, that's all. Your revision said nothing about it being the "first major concert" of black music at Carnegie Hall (which it also was not; the May 2, 1912 concert by the Clef Club Orchestra would qualify as that). "As Carnegie Hall's Associate Archivist I would have thought you could easily devise a way of including both the 1950 concert and the 1938 concert?" Ouch, this seems a bit nasty! OK, I'll admit that I did not rewrite the passage in the manner you suggest; I simply did not have the time. I'm not saying that Bostic's 1950 concert wasn't important; it certainly was. But when a performance history as diverse as that at Carnegie Hall is the topic, claims of "the first" of anything generally need a bit of qualification. Was it the first full-length concert of black gospel music at Carnegie Hall? Yes, probably (I say probably, because even our records are not 100% complete, and there are many poorly-documented and under-reported events that happened here), but then the entry should use these terms. Rhudson (talk) 20:49, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. No need for "ouch", I am not trying to be nasty in any way. I would urge you to add the 2 May 1912 concert by the Clef Club Orchestra. I think you are very well placed to create a new sub-section on music history, from which in my opinion, this article would really benefit. Many thanks for your diligence. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry I misread your comments -- tone is too easily misconstrued in forums like these. I agree with you on the sub-section for music history, whether or not I'm the right person to write it -- right now the important points get a bit buried. We're a bit swamped with work at the moment, but I could possibly at least get things started. We're starting a redesign of our website, and some of the content created for that could possibly be repurposed. I'll try to get things going this summer, when we have some breathing room! Thanks. Rhudson (talk) 21:20, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I wholly agree that things can "get buried" here. The timeline at the current carnegiehall.org website is really excellent, but I do hope you can re-use any new material here. Carnegie Hall is really significant for the music that it has hosted over the decades. You are really privileged to be able to work where you do! Best wishes. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Benny Goodman, Martha Tilton, and Carnegie Hall

Although Goodman's January 16, 1938 concert at Carnegie Hall was important (notably the first time audiences sat down to listen to Swing music in concert; also the first time a mixed race ensemble performed together on a prominent concert stage), his was not the first jazz performance at the Hall. W.C. Handy gave a concert that featured, among others, Fats Waller, in 1928; Paul Whiteman, although not a jazz band per se, featured jazz soloists (e.g. Bix Beiderbecke), and had performed many times at Carnegie Hall prior to Goodman.Rhudson (talk) 12:28, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Wikidata

Hi Rhudson,

Was nice meetup at the WikiWednesday meeting. The Wikidata WikiProject Music is at: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Music To join, add your name here: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Music/Participants - kosboot (talk) 03:40, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

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