User talk:Rossrs/Sandbox

Kylie Minogue

Sorry it took so long to get back to you! I've read through it. I personally think that it talks about the music in some depth, and I think it would be good enough to go on FAC :-) Ta bu shi da yu 13:00, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

wow! I love that Washington Post review. "Worst actress in the English speaking world" !!! But the real question for any serious cinema goer - was she worse than Pia Zadora? I wonder what Bob Gulla would say?  :-) On a more serious note, I think we're making great progress with this. I had a bad moment when I realized I had an edit conflict, so I hope I picked up everything. I think so. Also thanks for checking Anne Frank. I've never been able to spell "accommodate". Rossrs 16:37, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Re. Washington Post quote: Yeah, I thought it was just too good to ignore; although I love the gal, I think "the worst actress in the English speaking world" is a fairly accurate description of her acting abilities ;-). Bio-Dome was on Dutch TV recently, as part of a "Kylie night", and it was pretty horrific. It was followed by Street Fighter, but I didn't have the stamina to suffer through that as well... I'll make another sweep through the article when you're done editing, to avoid any further conflicts. --Plek 16:52, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

One other thing: do you think we can do any better with the image at the top (the one from the "Slow" set)? Maybe it's just me, but I think she looks like an automaton in it. I know I called her a "drone" before, but this might be streching the metaphor a bit too far. :) --Plek 17:17, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Sorry I didn't reply about Kylie... I didn't see your messages, and I didn't receive a message alert. Kylie's acting - well I think she's great in every other department, but as an actress I think she's like watching an accident slowly happen. That's why the Moulin Rouge! bit works so well - she doesn't have to act! I quite like the automaton image, however I can see she looks like a mannequin. I only chose that because as an "album cover" it qualifies as fair use, and it didn't have any writing on it. I'll see what I can come up with. I'll try to find maybe a screenshot from a video or live performance and see if I can get something that's reasonable quality. I've been trying to find one positive quote about her, to balance the Miki Berenyi of Lush quote where she says she should be fought at every turn. I thought something from another musician would be good but haven't been able to find anything. Maybe this will be a future featured article. I can see the arguments against it are going to be Anne Frank X 100. Rossrs 01:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi again. I think I've had a good idea. I have been thinking that the Minogue article made too much use of album covers, they don't particularly illustrate the text effectively and make the article seem a little repetitive. So while looking for screenshots, I found some that I think are really good. I've substituted some of the album covers for screenshots, and I think they are more instructive, address some of the points made and give the page more variety. Rather than drastically edit the page, I've made a test page. Can you have a look here, at: The all new, all singing, all dancing Kylie Minogue page, and tell me what you think please? Cheers Rossrs 04:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Kylie in her sandbox
Re: Kylie in her sandbox: Yup, it's getting better. I like the idea of using screenshots. The "Ophelia" link is great! Not being able to leave someone else's sandbox alone, I've jumped right in and started experimenting a bit. Things I did:

• Increased gamma and saturation of the "Better the Devil You Know" screenshot. It's somewhat better defined now.
• Replaced the Body Language cover with my own handywork: a capture of Body Language Live a.k.a. Money Can't Buy. I think it's quite a powerful image.
• Cropped the Fever Live image a bit to remove clutter. It's still a bit crowded for such a small image, so you might want to try to capture a tighter shot from the show.
• Cropped "Did it Again" capture as well.

Some other, random observations:

• Let's edit the opening paragraph. "She has evolved her musical and visual style to attain longevity in the competitive field of pop music" sounds like it's lifted from a posh art brochure.
• Next paragraph: "Her sister Dannii Minogue is also a pop singer. She first came to attention as a child actor...", is "she" referring to Minogue the bigun or the littleun? (I know, but the reader won't at first).
• "The release of her Greatest Hits album in 1992 coincided with her departure from Stock, Aitken and Waterman.", followed by some text about the album. Wouldn't it be more interesting to say something about her split with SAW here instead (reasons, motivation, some quotes maybe)?
• General comment: I think the article still has too many of the following:
  • "Album/single "X" did so and so in this and that chart"
  • "Magazine "Y" said this and that about so and so Album/single"

Think you could snip some of the less essential ones and leave the juicy/interesting bits? My first choice for deep-six action would be the tired Britney/Christina comparisons and some of The Austrialian's quotes. I really think we need to trim down the size of this beast, although I'm not quite sure how. Snipping nonessential review/charts stuff might be a start.

• Parlophone is Nick Cave's label, isn't it? Did he get Kylie to leave Deconstruction? It might be interesting to explore why she switched labels again (then again, it might not... maybe I'm looking for juice where none is to be found).

Just let me know what you think. I'll try to find some sources for the various suggestions I made (tomorrow, when I'm slightly more coherent). Cheers. --Plek 00:30, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I think what you've done is great. I'm glad you were able to sharpen the "Better the Devil You Know" image. I wanted something that was adult rather than just another display of flesh, and I like that image. The Money Can't Buy image is superb too. (I don't like the Body Language cover. I think she looks like a 60s Bond girl or something. Don't like it at all, so I'm happy you've removed it) I'll try to find something else for the Fever tour. I was trying to find something that gave an indication of the sets, the dancers, the costumes etc all in one shot, but yes it does look cluttered. hmmmm. Failing that, the DVD I have also has her Brit Awards performance, so that might have some possibility. I must get that Money Can't Buy DVD...

I'm glad you like the Ophelia thing. I was very excited when I found that. I was thinking "Just let someone try to say that's not encyclopedic!".

Editing - agree with you on every point. With regards to quotes from "The Australian", that is the most respected newspaper in Australia. The equivalent of the "London Times" or the "New York Times" so praise from them, is praise indeed. I'd like to leave one of them but you're right, there are too many. Likewise one quote comparing her to her peers but not all of them.

About leaving Deconstruction, joining Parlophone, Nick Cave etc. I don't think there's a story there. Just coincidence I think. I read that Minogue was used to being PWL's number one act, and didn't like just being one of the roster at Deconstruction and she thought they could have tried harder to promote her. (they spent very little on promotion I think). On the other hand they were expecting to make a huge amount of money off her with minimal investment and were disappointed when they didn't, so the parting was mutual dissatisfaction. Then when she was shopping around for a new contract (same interview) she was supposedly with a Parlophone bigwig who said "Well Miss Minogue, the thing is we don't have anyone like you on our books", to which she replied "nobody does". Which is a nice anecdote but I think she was going to sign with whoever gave her a good deal, and Parlophone gave her that, plus a lot of artistic control. Maybe Nick Cave recommended Parlophone to Minogue, or vice versa, but I've never read anything to that effect.

It's taking shape! I'm happy for the Sandbox page to be used for playing around with getting it right before it's taken onto the main page. So you're welcome to do whatever you like. What you've done so far has been just great. Rossrs 07:52, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

new Fever screenshot. And sound samples added. Rossrs 08:55, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I've added a talk page to the Kylie sandbox. I thought it would be easier to have all the ideas in one place. Talking about the Kylie Sandbox. It'll be easier to delete later if it's in on place. ;-)

Re: "she looks like a 60s Bond girl or something": Heh, heh, you're a lot closer than you might think. I've transcribed a section of the BLL DVD, which explains where things are coming from. I think some of it could go at the beginning of the Body Language album paragraph or in the "Image" section to shed light on her creative direction in this period. The calender imagery [1] also makes a lot more sense when knowing this.

Q: "Apparently you chose Brigitte Bardot as a source of inspiration?"

Kylie: "Hmm, hmm... I worked very closely with my stylist, who is also my creative director. We were just flipping though books and saw some great images and everything more or less stemmed from there. I mean I just tended to think of BB as, well, she's a sexpot, isn't she? She's one of the greatest pinups. But she was fairly radical in her own way at that time. And we chose to reference the period, which was, I think, a perfect blend of coquette and rock and roll."

From Body Language Live DVD, Money Can't Buy (2003) pre-show press conference --Plek 11:50, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Aloha! I've continued tweaking the article here and there. Just browse through the history and dump anything you don't like. It is coming together, yes. I think the main remaining eyesore are the last two paragraphs of the "Image" section. The "gay icon" paragraph starts with "early in her career", thus breaking the temporal flow (although this is only a minor point, I think). The last paragraph is more troublesome. "Accepted by a wider audience than just fans" is quirky. It looks like an assorted heap of unrelated triviods, with the final statement being unintentionally funny. My thoughts when reading that, after everything that has gone before, were: "Gawd... ALL that trouble just to get your name on a POSTAGE STAMP???". Surely there must be a better way to end the article, methinks... Any ideas on how to turn this whimper into a bang? Cheers. --Plek 23:39, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Didn't you once ask what is Kylie all about? Oh my god, do you think that's what she was after all along!? The changes are all good. Did she actually call Bardot "BB"? The gay icon stuff. It's pretty significant, and requires more than the "oh and before I forget she's also a gay icon (with her own postage stamp)" paragraph at the end, maybe backed with a quote or two. It needs to placed at the right part of the article, but I'm not sure where. Two thoughts off the top of my head. First, Kylie refusing to cancel a performance at the club GAY in London on the day of Michael Hutchence's death saying she couldn't do it. Something about her personal loss was nothing compared to a community decimated by AIDS. I think that was the day before the gay community nominated her for beatification. Second, commenting on being a gay icon she said something like. "Gay icons are supposed to be tragic. The only tragedies I've sufferred are some of my clothes and some of my hairstyles". Actually in La La La there's a fair bit explaining how she came to be regarded as such. I'll have to read through it.

The last paragraph is kind of a series of random thoughts. I think we can lose the whole lot. At the time I wrote that, which was probably over a year ago, she was on TV constantly either about recycling, or domestic violence, or tourism and sometimes even singing. She seemed to be at the helm of everything. It was very odd in Australia. She's gone from being an object of ridicule to the national spokesperson on every subject - it was incongruous, but it's hard to convey the weirdness of it, and not necessary now that she's settled back into being a pop star again. I don't know how to convey her iconic status in Australia without it being POV and it's probably not necessary. For example at the Olympics the commentators said something like "here are two of the most recognisable icons in Australia, surf lifesavers and Kylie Minogue". I had thought a long time ago that it was important to convey that somehow, but I don't think so anymore. Anyway that whole end section needs to go, postage stamp included, and we need to come up with something else suitable as a closing. I have no idea. Rossrs 13:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

About "what Kylie is all about": Well, I had expected her to have evolved into an independent, strong-minded person with a clear sense of direction. However, after reading those interviews, I get the impression that she's not quite there yet. Reading between the lines, I see someone who's more comfortable being a member of the team, sometimes following directions by others, rather than always being on top of things and fully in control of her own direction. Gawd, I sound like the Sunday newspaper's horoscope! Anyhow, I think all this means that we're on the right track with the article by clearly identifying the various people with whom she's associated. I think they are equally important in shaping the "Minogue franchise" as she is herself. I also find it remarkable that they're all men, although I have no idea whether that signifies anything.

So, who have been the men? Stock Aitken Waterman obviously. Terry Blamey, her manager since 1987, her father - an accountant, he's also her financial manager (what a great job!), William Baker, her stylist since 1997 and credited with her gay icon/Spinning Around/hot pants etc.

Also - a woman - Katerina Jebb. photographer from the early 90s. relentlessly battled Minogue's tendency to present herself as a drag queen (according to Jebb)

About the BB quote: yes, I've transcribed the interview verbatim. Turns out she repeats the line in the VH1 interview. Guess that makes it true...

Gay icon text: I've moved the gay icon paragraph almost to the top of the "Image" section, where I think it belongs in terms of importance. It needs some copyedit and could be expanded a bit. I like the interview in which she says that she hasn't really tried to become part of the gay community, but was kind of "adopted" by them. Cute.

The conclusion: Finally, I think the VH1 interview bit, where she acknowledges being part of a manufactured image, could be useful to incorporate. Many people will have that very idea when reading the article. Confirming that thought by having her agreeing with them could be a fitting conclusion to the article, maybe (let's say, the next-to-last paragraph, with some blurb about her future prospects and direction to close it all off). Something like that? --Plek 21:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Have done a bit of adding. Gay icon - found a couple of quotes that expanded it a bit, including the "adopted" one and tried to make just one short, sharp paragraph, that dealt with the subject. Also added a bit to the On a Night Like This tour, including her quote about what she considered her strengths. Sliced off the previous ending paragraph, and added two paragraphs to conclude. The paragraph about being manufactured. That's rather good. Then another one quoting William Baker saying her sexpot bit had gone too far, Kylie more or less agreeing that it cant go on forever. And finishing with her doing jazz in Paris, and saying that above all she is a performer. Or maybe that should be PERFORMER!!!! Up to 39 kb. I find it easier to build it up, and then cut it back, don't know about you. I think we've got some cutting to do, but I find the building up much easier than the cutting. (It's still smaller than Duran Duran. Rossrs 14:30, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

File:KylieMinogueStageScreen.jpg

Excellent, excellent ending! It's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. So, one down, only a few more to go. The other additions are very good as well.

I've tried to do some cutting, but haven't been able to snip more than a few words here and there. There really isn't that much fat left, I think. I'll try again tomorrow.

I also added one more picture in the "Image" section. I noticed that we didn't have any "real life" Kylie pics in the article, so I put one in there from the BL press conference. I thought it fitted the "media interest" theme nicely. I also captured the image on the right which I really like, but I don't see any useful place to put it. So I'll just drop it here to fluff up the talk page...

Some final things that remain to be done:

• More trimming
• Fix William Baker's credentials: he's alternatively called her stylist and her creative director. While he really is her stylist and her creative director, the current use might be confusing
• Fix/eliminate paragraph in the "Image" section starting with "Her raunchy image...". With the new ending, most of that has become redundant. "Sex Kylie" is already mentioned in the preceding paragraph, and "her critics" is followed by "her detractors" in the next paragraph. I'd say incorporate the useful bits elsewhere and delete the rest.
• Tidy up the "Samples" section. The solid block of "Download sample of" looks ugly. Just use the song's title as the link text instead? Also, adding the single's year of issue might provide useful context. Done. --Plek 10:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Maybe try to replace some more covers with "real" pictures, if anything useful, nice or appropriate can be found.

And then it may be time to do The Big Paste... The diff is going to be complete carnage, that's for sure. All in the name of science (or should that be: entertainment)? --Plek 23:30, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's all looking good. We were very bad leaving the categories on the article, weren't we! Wikipedia polluters!  :-( I like the BL press confererence image too - fits well, and it's different to the other stuff. The other one on this page I like too, but I don't know what to do with it.

I'm a bit pushed for time for the next few days, but I'll try to get done what I can. Your suggestion of replacing covers - yes I think the covers are less illustrative of the text than (what I really like) screenshots. They really appeal to me for some reason. Plus the album covers are all there on the album pages, so that's a bit boring really. My thoughts - and I'll put something together as an example - replace "Kylie album" with "I Should Be So Lucky" screenshot, to show her as the clueness newbie she then was. Replace "Light Years" with the "Spinning Around" shot. Impossible Princess is nice, and it's an "art" shot but then it would be the only album cover. hmmm needs some thought. I'd like to find a "Put Yourself in My Place" screenshot and link it to Jane Fonda as Barbarella, ([2]) and have that in the section where "Spinning Around" is now. If we do that I'd then want a sound sample too as all the other songs mentioned or illustrated have sound samples and that would just keep it consistent. Also I've been thinking of a way to include the 'people around Kylie'. I think the key is the parents, the manager and on from there. Would be easy to write two sentences that flow into the bit about "manufactured" and "team". Will try to put that together, to see what you think. cheers Rossrs 11:52, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I should be receiving the Ultimate Kylie DVD soon, so I could take a shot at those captures as well. All the videos you mentioned are on there, so that would be no problem. As to the "Spinning Around" picture: methinks that there are more enticing captures to be made than the one we have right now; she doing her thing on the counter comes to mind (although I haven't seen the vid for some time now, I'll know for sure when I get the DVD). --Plek 12:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

oops, I've already done it. Sorry, I've been sitting here playing with my Ultimate Kylie DVD....I found a "Lucky" bit complete with the childish backdrop. The image we had before from "Spinning Around" I'm sure it's not a screenshot as it's not on the video, also the famous still shot of her on the bar, not there either. Very hard to get a screenshot where she isn't grimacing or out of focus (or in the case of "Put Yourself In My Place", grimacing, out of focus and upside down) but I got a couple. Plus the song sample I was threatening to add. And now we're up to 40 kb. Can you believe it? Rossrs 15:21, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, is 40 kB too long? I'd say sod it; with a career spanning almost two decades, that's only 2 kB per year. That's not so bad, is it? ;-) Screenshots look good, tragic outfits and hairdos and all. I've been going over the article once more. I think one aspect needs some minor copyedit:

• The opening section: let's make sure that it accurately summarises the article, has a pleasant layout and entices the reader to dig into the article proper. Right now, I'm not too sure about any of those. It starts out with a single-sentence paragraph. It doesn't mention her career origins in soap acting (the two could be solved with a single addition). I'm not too confident about calling her Deconstruction period a "grunge" phase, although I haven't listened to all of the KM/IP songs. Are you sure this label is accurate? In any case, the term doesn't occur in the rest of the article, so either it should be added there, or renamed here, I think. The "most successful concert tour ever" might lead to questions about verifiability and NPOV; how does one measure the "success" of a tour? I'd say either reword that (something like "highest ticket sales/attendance ever"), or pick a different achievement to mention in the introduction.

Back to work for me; I'll see what I can do tonight. --Plek 10:24, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• 40 kb is ok by me, but I'm anticipating the naysayers. You know what I mean, those who say nay just for the sake of it. We've met some of them recently. With a bit of luck there's no asteroid named after Minogue yet. If there is I don't want to know. ;-) I'm quite ready to point at the 42 kb Duran Duran featured article if necessary. Grunge phase. Yes, well spotted. That's does need rewording. It's interesting that she's had two wildly successful careers, with a ten year struggle in the middle of them. That's what I was trying to address, but I don't know how to say that. "Successful tour", you're right again. "Highest ticket sales" is in fact accurate. I've read that in newspapers - I suppose that will need to be referenced. I'll have to try to find something. On that subject - there are several mentions throughout of 7 million for this album, and 4 million for that one.. none of it's referenced and I don't know where that came from or who put it in. I don't even know where to start looking for sales figures in order to reference them. Do you know? The whole lead section is lacking a bit. I'm all Minogued out, I'm a bit blank. I'll give it some thought, and have a look over the next couple of days. On the whole I have to say we've done some really good things with this. Rossrs 13:58, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the thing has improved considerably (in my not so humble opinion). And fear not, no "Minogue" or "Kylie" is to be found on the minor planets list... yet. [3] They do have a "(10838) Lebon", which may or may not be named after that Le Bon, which may or may not prove useful when a major minor planet war should erupt between the Kylie Minogue WP crowd and the Duran Duran WP crowd (with the Anne Frank WP crowd cheering them on as innocent bystanders, their minor planet reference safely in the bin). Anyway, moving right along, what are your thoughts about moving this article back to the main article space? While you're recovering from your Minogue overdose, we could keep it here in isolation and (relative) safety, or we could paste it in and let the rest of the dogs gnaw at it as well. :) Either one is fine with me, I guess. I'll also try to address some of my own suggestions over the weekend to see what happens. Cheers. --Plek 15:38, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to leave it here for a few more days, or at least until that lead section is fixed. I want to trim the references down. I think with all the editing some of them are redundant, so I will check them. I've been thinking we should have a quick scan through the album and single articles that link here and make sure they're all right. I don't propose anything major, just fixing any glaring problems. I haven't looked at them though so they may be ok as they are. Then do you think it should go onto Peer Review again, or straight to FA nomination? The more I look at it, the more I think it's better than most of the celebrity articles. If anyone says it needs "a bit more criticality" or "some discussion of, as they say, the music, would be nice", I won't be responsible for my actions. :-)

I've had a go at the lead section. I think it's better than it was was, but I'm sure it could be improved upon. I've also gone through the whole thing from start to finish, and tweaked it here and there, and I'm happy with it. I think it covers everything it should cover, and I don't think there's any fluff left in it. Over to you now. What do you think? Rossrs 16:55, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Yay! We have a new lead section! I did some minor trimming in there, but it's looking good. The only thing that might cause problems is the use of the word "serious" in "she attempted to establish herself as a serious performer and songwriter". I know exactly what you're trying to say with that, but the proverbial typical reader might think that she wasn't serious before, and dumped all seriousness overboard when joining Parlophone to regain her place as flippant sexpot (hotpants and all). On the other hand, I really can't think of anything else to put there, so let's just ignore that proverbial reader, shall we?
• Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems we've had the wrong dates in the section headings for quite some time now. I changed them. Also, the text mentioned Kylie joining Parlophone in Nov. 1998, whilst Kylie.com says April 1999. Changed that as well.
• Finally, I did a complete overhaul of the "References" section. According to the Manual of Style, a retrieval date is only needed when referencing content that's subject to change. Static articles in periodicals don't need it, so I removed most of them. I also reformatted most entries so everything is consistent. I think the section looks a lot less cluttered now.
• I think the article is done. Or, at least done-ish or done enough. It might even be well done, but we won't know for sure until we set it loose. I'd say we go straight to FAC; everything that was said in previous peer reviews and FailedFACs has been addressed, and then some. My congratulations to you on a kick ass piece of work.
• One final thought: I'm entertaining the wild idea of contacting Terry Blamey Management Ltd. and ask them to do a fact check on the article and the discography. Yes, I think it's unlikely we'd get anything more than a canned reply (if that), but if I do get them to read through it, well, there's nothing better than the horse's mouth, right? Is this the stupidest idea in the history of stupid ideas, or do you think it has any merit? Cheers. --Plek 01:43, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• ha! "where she married a whimp". yes she married a whimp and "moved to Brisbane" which is "Neighbourspeak" for "got a better offer and left the show". I happen to live in Brisbane though, and have never seen Charlene when I've been out and about.... Lead paragraph. True we don't want people thinking she flippantly decided to become a sexpot, because I believe that decision was not taken lightly! Have changed "serious" to "independent". Do you think that works? It's not precisely what I wanted to say but it comes close. Other than that - WOW !!!!! I am so pleased with this. Congratulations on a bloody brilliant job! I can't say enough - first Anne Frank and now Kylie! Brilliant!! I'm happy to see it go onto FAC now. Would you like to make it a joint nomination? I was thinking we could work jointly on replying to comments, and keep this page open for discussion between us. Does that sound ok to you?

• My only concern now is if anyone challenges the accuracy of the sales figures quoted, I have no answer. I don't know where they came from or how to verify them? Any thoughts?

• Also, I inverted the "Spinning Around" image. Do you think this is cheating? I found the image a few days ago, then after that I read in La La La about the Vargas influence, so I thought I'd try to find an example of a Vargas to link to. I was amazed when I found one that was almost identical to the screenshot I'd taken. I think it looks better this way, but will change it back if you think it's not right.

• Contacting Terry Blamey? I think that's inspired. I'm doubtful as to how they would reply but it would be interesting to see. I have heard KM say that she gets on the internet and is aware of things like "Kylie forums" etc, gets on and looks at them. How cool if she read through it... :-D ... But how unlikely. I say go for it! Mind you, I can't see them being happy about the Washington Post comment or the Pia Zadora comparison. (Those things are oddly missing from Kylie.com!) But it's not going to hurt to do it, is it? This has turned out far better than I ever expected. Again, thank you! Rossrs 07:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• (Insert a pensive "hmmm..." here) I don't think manipulating imagery (or data in general) to make a point is such a good idea when writing an encyclopedic article. Or any article, really. I know it's a fairly insignificant alteration, but as a matter of principle I reverted it. People will most likely notice the resemblance either way.
• About the sales figures: Well, the organisation that should be responsible for announcing such figures is the IFPI. Instead, they seem to have degenerated into a rather scary posse, responsible for launching oxymorons like "copyright theft" into the public vocabulary, bent on eradicating the Public Domain, bullying governments around the world to implement "copyright reform" through "fair trade agreements", and generally trying to circumvent judicial law to form their own private copyright enforcement army. The whole group seems like a blatant example of corporatism run amok to me. (Takes deep breath to regain composure). I guess I'll never be able to write something neutral at IFPI. Anyway, those sales figures are only available from them after paying several hunderds of Pounds. I guess we'll have to go with what we have. If someone objects, we can always remove or edit things.
• About the page move: I've been reading a bit about moving pages on Wikipedia. It looks like just copy-and-pasting the sandbox over the original article is frowned upon, because it destroys the edit history. Also, because the move target (i.e. the original article) isn't empty, we can't just use the "Move" function to merge the two. Finally, because of the Everyking edit, the two versions have overlapping edit histories. All this means that we probably need admin help to merge the two together (a move of this talk page just might be in order as well). A request to do so should be posted at Wikipedia:Requested_moves. Because I wouldn't dare to move anyone else's sandbox (I only play in it), I'll leave the honours to you ;-).
• After the move is done, a joint FAC nomination seems OK to me!
• About contacting ZeBigBoss: When the article is back in place, I'll draft a mail to them and will let you know. In any case, I'll clearly state that the article is supposed to be a neutral assessment, including both positive and negative criticism. I'll hope that will soften the blow a bit:-). --Plek 15:18, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Image manipulation - yes it's undesirable. I started rethinking it almost as soon as I did it. Thanks for reverting it. Sales figures - you've eased my mind. If someone challeges it, we edit/delete and don't waste time trying to justify them. I like that! I've read through the page move info. My interpretation is that in copying and pasting from one article to another you lose the edit history of the article being copied from, in this case - this sandbox edit history. Is it important that it be kept if we've agreed that we're happy with the rewrite as it now stands? I mean, it would not damage the integrity of the original article's history, and the sandbox history in my opinion is just between the two of us, and not of any concern to Wikipedia. I understand them frowning on what would essentially be merges between two individual articles with individual histories, but this would only lose our own edits here, which we could refer to if necessary because the Sandbox history would still exist. With some other articles I've worked on, (and I did it not even thinking it might cause a problem) I copied the whole thing into a WP document, edited it at my leisure and then copied and pasted it in its entirety back into the article. (making sure nobody else had edited it in the meantime) When I did a compare edit, it showed the differences between versions as normal, and didn't lose any history. All that was lost was my own thought processes between edits, which I didn't think important anyhow. Am I interpreting this correctly? Or have I totally got this wrong? I'm not sure. Reading Wikipedia:Requested_moves I'm not sure how to ask for the two things to be merged,and I'm not even sure it's necessary, especially when it says there that requests are discussed for 5 days. What do you think? I also read through Wikipedia:Duplicate articles. Either way, I don't want to move the talkpage. The current Talk:Kylie Minogue page has enough of my mindless ramblings without adding a whole lot more for posterity! :-) Anyway it's very late and I'm not thinking clearly. I have to go to sleep and will be back tomorrow. Hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend. Cheers. Rossrs 16:15, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

We are live! I have moved the sandbox content to Kylie Minogue. In the end, I just did a copy-and-paste; I think your arguments for doing so are sound. Luckily, I didn't forget to re-enable the categories. Replaced the sandbox's content with a redirect, just to avoid confusion (remove at will). I've also typed up a brief summary of all the things we changed on the main article's talk page. See: Talk:Kylie Minogue#Major edit of February 20, 2005. And that concludes this sandbox session! Kylie will return... --Plek 17:48, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Whew! A job well done. I've had a look and it's already had a couple of edits. Seems very weird for someone else to be editing it. Thank you for doing the move. I like the way you've summed up the changes on the talk page. Very clear. Now we just have to see how it's received by the masses!  :-) Rossrs 21:52, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Notes and bits and pieces that might be useful

I found a book called Kylie Confidential in a bargain bin today so grabbed it. Awful title (it's going to look very convincing in References), but at first glance might have a few good things. I think it might wrap up the gay icon thing nicely because it has a whole chapter on it, which I'll have to read through.

Also - no idea what to do with it, but a quote from Pete Waterman on Minogue c. 1988 "I found it amazing that she was outselling Madonna four to one, but still wanted to be her. Everyone wanted to be Kylie Minogue except Kylie Minogue, who wanted to be Madonna". Interesting mindset.

Thought maybe any stray thoughts or links could be jotted here.

"Gay icons usually have some tragedy in their lives, but I've only had tragic haircuts and outfits." this appears on several sites

Kylie the icon, the gay icon, Stock Aitken Waterman etc maybe some good ideas in here, plus some quotes.

www.apeculture.com/music/kylielive.htm Her name is Kylie, She is a showgirl On A Night Like This tour

VH1 interview mentions Brigitte Bardot, also - very good - she lists some of her musical influences, Jackson 5, Donna Summer etc.

variation on the gay icon quote hmmm this one pops up on a few sites too.

and this is what our article looks like without pictures  :-(

BBC article, shame it's not very good

Seattle Weekly article very good, and contains good quote about what Minogue thinks she's best at.

Blamey email

Well, with Wikipedia as flakey as it has been the last few days, I'm not surprised that my mail didn't get through. Here it is. Could you check my writing, please? My spelling and grammar are usually okay, but I occasionally mess up my prepositions and idom. Any other comments: just pour your heart out. Thanks! --Plek 16:26, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

hmmm ... some of us would be more eagerly awaiting Ms Minogue's "Showgirl" tour, if we had been able to purchase tickets before they sold out. Perhaps you could add something like "my friend in Australia would be much obliged if you could see your way to sending him two tickets for Ms Minogue's Brisbane show..."

Seriously, you write English far better than I do. I would only change the little bit about appreciating someone looking at the article. That part is not quite right, but to insert "it" after "appreciate" makes it technically correct but still awkward, so I think just saying "we would be very grateful" would be better. Top notch email! Rossrs 08:51, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

Dear Mr. Blamey

I am writing to you on behalf of the Wikipedia project <http://www.wikipedia.org/>, to seek your help in checking the factual accuracy of our articles on Kylie Minogue.

Wikipedia is a multilingual project to create a complete and accurate open content encyclopaedia. It is collaboratively edited by volunteers from around the world. The English-language version may be viewed on the Web at <http://en.wikipedia.org/>. It currently has close to half a million articles on-line, serving as a source of information to many, and also used by other Internet sites (for example: Google and Answers.com) to provide answers to their users’ queries.

Over the past few weeks, a group of editors has been hard at work to improve Ms. Minogue’s article, which gives an overview of her professional career and of the reactions to her work by the press and the public. Being an encyclopaedic work, the article is written from a neutral point of view, which means that a balanced account is given of both positive and negative criticism. Secondary articles, mainly concerning her albums and singles, have been edited and expanded as well.

Our goal is to bring the main article to “featured status”, which represents the highest standard of quality on Wikipedia. The main article can be found at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylie_Minogue>, and links to the discography are located at the bottom of that page.

While we have taken care to cite the sources of all the information mentioned in the article, we would be very grateful if a knowledgeable person from within your agency could check the articles for factual accuracy. Finding publicly available, authoritative and accurate record sales figures proved to be especially difficult, so any input from you on that subject would be greatly appreciated. Of course, any other comments would be most welcome as well.

Should you be able to check our work and find any inaccuracies, please indicate so in your reply, if possible with pointers to a publicly available source. We will take care to incorporate your comments and correct the offending statements.

In any case, I wish you, Ms. Minogue, and her crew the best of luck with the upcoming Showgirl tour. Many of the people who contributed to the article, including me, are eagerly anticipating her show. We hope our work on Wikipedia will do justice to the achievement of an amazing performer. Thank you for your time and consideration.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours sincerely

signed