User talk:Sabrebd/Sandbox2

Hi! I think I'll need to do this step by step, partly because it's a complicated issue and partly because my time over the next few weeks is likely to be limited and restricted to occasional short visits online - school holidays!

Re the first paragraph:

• Imported recordings from US servicemen were important, but so were records brought over by merchant seamen, particularly in Liverpool and also other ports (London, Newcastle, Belfast etc. - also important was the connection with Hamburg), and (perhaps particularly) the visits from US blues performers such as the American Folk Blues Festival and those invited by Chris Barber and others.
• Saying that the Liverpool and Manchester scenes were "very similar" would cause riots even now! The cities were (even more so then than now) very different, and fierce rivals. Liverpool was much more of a cultural melting-pot (and, many would say, much more innovative) than Manchester, particularly because of its role as a major international port.
• Not sure about the importance of the "Brill Building sound". Obviously US pop of the time had an influence, but in many ways the young British musicians of the time actively rejected that style, while respecting the musicianship of many of the performers.

I'll carry on when I have time. Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments so far:

• I'm sure I can source something about merchant seamen, left out because it tends to be associated with Liverpool and beat music.
• Trying to distinguish Liverpool and Manchester beat scenes (from the latter Freddie and the Dreamers, Herman's Hermits and The Hollies) from the much more R&B based scenes elsewhere, but I think this can be better phrased.
• I will check the sources again over Brill Building sound.

Cheers.--SabreBD (talk) 10:57, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

It just occurred to me - what do you think is the best way of addressing the overlap with British blues? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:49, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I think we can run with Richie Unterberger's definition as a difference of emphasis, with blues being more "purist". If we do a stand alone article we can include a summary of that in British blues article (I had this in mind as I wrote) and I think what we have on this page covers some of the problem, although perhaps it needs to be more explicit. On a minor point, if its going to be an article, perhaps it is worth mentioning a few more outliers like Tom Jones (singer), who started as R&B, before he moved off into pop - I'd be intereted to read what you have to say about that and anything else that should be included in a longer piece.--SabreBD (talk) 14:46, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I have produced two versions, a longer one for an independent article and a shorter one that can be a summary in the rhythm and blues article (and perhaps other relevant articles). It would be great if you could cast your eye over these, although we can always edit them on the page of course.--SabreBD (talk) 22:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Apologies for inadvertently editing your sandbox - I absentmindly thought I was looking at the article itself - sorry. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Its no problem, the other day I started editing the article thinking it was my sandbox. I've undone the edit to stop me getting another bot message about misuse of a non-free image. As you can see I have done some work on the post 1970 section. I managed to pull something together on the mods, but seem to have run out of steam after that, pretty much like the genre I suppose. So if you have any suggestions they would be really welcome.--SabreBD (talk) 07:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm only able to edit intermittently at the moment - other commitments - and then I'm away next week, so I was waiting until you'd "finished" and added your paras to the article before, maybe, tweaking it a little. I'm also keeping an eye on when it's likely to go on the main page at DYK, when it will get several thousand hits - that won't be for several days. If you'd like me to tweak the sandbox I could do that. One of the points I thought I'd raise was the word "Decline" in the heading. Although there was a period when not many bands played R&B in the early 60s sense, what I think happened was that the musicians themselves moved into other areas - not just "blue eyed soul", but the whole then-developing area of rock music as a whole - and the audiences picked up more on the records themselves. Shows like Mike Raven (useless article! - now improved, I hope - what an extraordinary life!) on the radio helped, and then the Northern soul scene developed, with a huge emphasis on playing the original records themselves. As I mentioned earlier, this, and the growth in researching the origins of the music, was very much a UK thing and I think needs to be mentioned in the article. So, R&B didn't "decline" so much as lead on to, and be assimilated within, other genres, until the 70s when the pub rock thing started. Another detail would be to mention Bill Wyman along with Jools Holland as a latter day performer (neatly closing the circle with the early 60s scene!). Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

All good suggestions, I agree over decline, and will get Rogets out if something better doesn't come to me. Your suggestions will give me something to work with, then, as you are short of time, you could tweak it afterwards. Having said that, I am will be only intermittently editing myself, but I am keen to get this one done before I go away myself the week after you. (Thankfully not the same week - or who would revert all the vandalism?).--SabreBD (talk) 09:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I decided to post this to the article in the end on the grounds you can tweak it on the page when you get back. I totally agree about including Mike Raven and his ilk, but I was unsure where to put them. I thought perhaps they should go at the start of the article, but it is difficult since they had quite long careers. Something to think about.--SabreBD (talk) 18:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)