User talk:Sm8900/item draft 2

Wiki Council?

Would it not be easier to gather a group of 15 editors and try reactivate the Council, and suggest some amendments to the process, rather than start a new one which risks dispersing the limited number of editors further? Nosebagbear (talk) 18:31, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

this project is here precisely to reactivate the Council. the first step is to create a shared user space where we can discuss ways to do so. Do you think the WikiProject Council will allow me to use their page, to actively begin a whole new structure for discussion amongst editors? believe me, I tried. we were not successful. the fusillade of arrows was deafening. we huddled together under the palace walls, then we were lucky to be able to make a strategic withdrawal with the arrival of six battalions of Highland infantry and dragoons!!! trust me, this bivouac area is the only safe way to prepare ourselves. i do deeply appreciate your reply here. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 18:45, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

@Nosebagbear:, you can simply read the talk page to view the whole discussion. the discussion is still visibile there. feel free to come back here and add any ideas. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 18:50, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Nosebagbear, I'd be happy to adopt any action you suggest. could you please perhaps sign up here as a member, and then let me know how to proceed? I'll do any suggestion you want, seriously. please let me know. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 19:29, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Not really my field of either interest of knowledge, I'm afraid - - I have almost no wikiproject activity so my advice wasn't particularly expert or ongoing (if nothing else, dealing with the more controversial recommendations is sapping most of my time atm) Nosebagbear (talk) 19:31, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Request help with new Council for WikiProjects

notice

==Request help with new Council for WikiProjects==

comments

@Ipigott, Bluerasberry, and Michael E Nolan:, please feel free to let me know what you think of the notice above. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 02:08, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

As I explained earlier, I am not interested in becoming a member of a new WikiProject.--Ipigott (talk) 06:49, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Ipigott, ok fair enough. are you interested in helping me to make WikiProject COuncil active again? i.e. as a forum for exchange and discussion between different WikiProjects? If so how would you suggest that we proceed? thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 11:51, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

In various exchanges over the past week or two, I have made a number of suggestions but I cannot see any of them are reflected in your current document. As I've said before, I think it would be useful to start as follows:

• Specify clearly what you consider to be the shortcomings of the current project
• Suggest how you think these could be overcome
• Ask for feedback from those active at WP Council and any other interested parties.--Ipigott (talk) 13:37, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Ipigott, thanks so much for your helpful response. here is my reply, below. I have copied your points, and then added my replies below each one.

• Specify clearly what you consider to be the shortcomings of the current project
  • the problem is that WikiProject Council is not currently serving as an active forum for WikiProjects to hold active discussions, to provide current updates and information, or to exchange ideas and information.
  • also, another problem is that WikiProject Council does nothing to reflect which WIkiProjects are currently the most active, does nothing to solicit their input, and does not do anything to point interested editors to the WikiProjects that are the most active.
• Suggest how you think these could be overcome
  • these can be overcome by firstly, 1) inviting coordinators and editors from the most active WikiProjects to submit updates, ideas, and information on what their most recent projects are
  • 2) revising the pages of WikiProject Council, to make it reflect what is currrently happening at active WikiProjects
  • 3)adding new pages, or revising existing pages, at WikiProject Council, to create a format or a forum where more editors can add their input, on their currrent efforts.
• Ask for feedback from those active at WP Council and any other interested parties.
  • I will be glad to do so, but first I'd like to let a little time go by. this is partly to let things settle down there again, and also, I would like to get some input from various editors at various WikiProjects, to find out what they would find most useful, before I go back to WikiProject Council with new ideas.
  • I would rather give this process some time, and proceed slowly in order to let others provide input, rather than rushing ahead with this and not giving other folks enough time to add their ideas.
  • you can help, by providing your thoughts and feedback on the ideas and proposals above. if you do want me to proceed, I need just a little feedback or support from you. If I don't have any consensus or input in support, then there is little that I can or should do.

I hope that's helpful. does that answer your questions? I hope you'll please feel free to comment, and add your thoughts on the above thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 18:57, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I think it would be useful to work this into your draft. The draft still looks as if you intend to start a new wikiproject rather than bring about improvements to WP Council.--Ipigott (talk) 08:14, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

@Ipigott:, well both are correct. this WikiPorject is not a full-fledged project per se; in other words, I have no intent to take on a whole new set of editing areas or article improvements here. this WikiProject is here mainly as a sounding board for existing WikiProjects; to serve as a forum and a platform for ideas and information; and also, where we can lay out a set of core ideas for making WikProject Council into a full-fledged resource and active community exchange.

once we succeed in building a core group to reinvigorate WikiProject Council and build it as an active exchange of ideas and information, I would not need to recruit further for this specific WikIProject.

so in other words, this WikiProject has a specific purpose that is narrow and specific in scope. once we reach that point our little group here would continue to exist, but we would only be a jumping-off point for enacting ideas at WikiProject Council; not for a whole new set of projects in this project space.

so that is why i vitally need your support. the whole idea is to empower and to coordinate active coordinators at active WikiProjects here, prior to formulating and implementing ideas to build up WikiPorject Council as a whole.

so based upon that, does that sound better? I vitally need your help. Wikipedia is based upon WP:Consensus and WP:Be bold. I cannot move forward unless I have the vital inpout and support of active coordinators like ourself. would you be able to please join up, and thereby provide some inpout periodically? I would greatly appreciate it. please let me know what you think.

and I do highly appreciate your valuable and insightful reply, above.. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 15:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Be aware of similar efforts

Sm89000 you have excellent skill at project documentation. You produce concise text which communicates your points clearly in the wiki way. Thanks for that.

I wish for you to enjoy yourself in wiki in a sustainable way. I advise you to avoid overly exerting yourself and pace yourself for longer term slow conversation rather than quick results. You have been here for 10+ years and lots of edits so you already have seen people come and go. I wish for you that you engage in this project over the long term.

You have identified an interesting challenge which perhaps we can call on-wiki community organizing. It is a real problem, and a scalable process to make online organizing easier would increase impact and engagement several fold and have a real global impact on the knowledge environment in Wikipedia and beyond. The idea you have is directly on a real problem.

Be aware that many people have addressed this challenge and burned out before you. The situation is not a shortage of good ideas and potential solutions, nor have their been failures of well organized attempts, nor is the challenge unsolvable or untenable. I think that there is a solution, and that it does lie in someone like you producing documentation, recruiting a community of about 5 volunteer collaborators, putting in the usual volunteer amateur Wikipedia community effort, and discovering a solution through wiki community process over a period of months. The challenge is tempting, but I am also wary of so many people in the past being stressed over the development of it.

Consider surveying other Wikipedia community organizing efforts. Here are some options for examination:

• Most-edited WikiProjects query for English Wikipedia
• meta:Wikimedia movement affiliates, which include off-wiki community meetups and mixed on-and-off wiki meetups
• Wikipedia:WikiProject X, an effort to support WikiProjects with tools for community management
  • and its excellent, useful, and direct grant report
• d:Q4099686, Wikidata entry for WikiProject Medicine, a highly organized WikiProject and including non-English links to various language versions of the project
• I drafted in-person organizer role suggestions at Wikipedia:Meetup#Basics_for_beginners, but I feel these apply to online organizing too. My own feeling is that organizations, on or offline, without 1 different person in each of these 4 roles rarely can be sustainable.
• Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team, concept of a WikiProject originates in this project to put Wikipedia on CD. The tracking functionality is still based here.

My guess is that most WikiProjects, probably 90%, fail to recruit a community base of 5 people who contribute 20 minutes a month to the WikiProject. The same is true for off-wiki affiliate organizations. These community organizations probably have an average setup time of 40 hours. The reason why many Wikimedia community members push back on community organizing is that volunteers not infrequently set up a community project, invest lots of time in it, fail to recruit a community base, then drop out of Wikimedia projects. No one wants this cycle of dissatisfaction for anyone. When there is a relevant on or off wiki community organization, and people join it, then that community often enjoys the collaboration and the organizational structure.

As a practical goal, I recommend setting a target for 5 participants in any wiki project which has intent to make change at scale.

I appreciate the enthusiasm here and wish all success for this project. I can answer questions or be an occasional adviser if that helps. I am unable to engage regularly here. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:03, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

@Bluerasberry:, thanks so much. I very much appreciate your insights above. and overall, I basically agree almost completely with all of your points above. yes, it is better to move slowly. and yes, i hope to simply assemble a core group. I am proceeding step by step, one editor at a time. please note though, if I don't get any individuals to support this effort, then basically it will not be able to proceed. so any person who can help me disseminate these ideas to others can be of great value. but anyway, I do understand, appreciate, and agree with basically all of your points above. I do appreciate your insights, and look forward to discussing further. i will keep you posted. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 18:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sm8900: You commented at WikiProject: prefix at the Village Pump. This just closed, not in favor of having a WikiProject name space. This is a perennial proposal. I think everyone desires community organizational tools but also lots of people have observed lots of failed attempts after large investments. Best wishes identifying what has and has not found success in the past.

Regardless of whether you go all the way with this proposal of yours, I encourage you to polish it enough to push it from userspace to Wikipedia: space so that it enters the record of public discourse. I do not know what the ultimate solution to the challenge is, but I expect that it will involve identifying and surveying many proposals of this sort. If you publish then you contribute to the discussion in which eventually we find the solution. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:50, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

summary of ideas for page revision

Below is a new summary of some of the ideas that I am currently working on. pinging some editors, in case they wish to comment. @Ipigott and Bluerasberry:.

I would like to revise the main page for WikIProject Council. Below are some of the key points and possible changes.

• Make article easier to edit; remove decorative section heads, and restore links to edit each sections
• Add information and links on resources and pages that provide data on which WikiProjects are currently most active.
• Add links to pages where editors can actively comment upon and discuss which WikiProejcts they are currently active in.
  • This can be existing pages and forums, or totally new ones
• Add information and links on general Wikipedia resources, where new editors can find help and information.

thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:51, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

notes section

reserved for notes on items.