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SniperAsset

Joined 20 May 2023
Latest comment: 1 year ago by TornadoLGS in topic Unsourced changes

Welcome!

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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Happy editing! Heart (talk) 03:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Unsourced changes

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Latest comment: 1 year ago14 comments3 people in discussion

Hi. Your edit to 2013 Moore tornado was reverted because you did not provide a reliable source for the change in death toll. In order to stay, you would have to add a reference to a source. See WP:CITE on how to do this. TornadoLGS (talk) 04:21, 27 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

I have the ME’s press release that i will send that documents that they added her to the list of victims as #25. This is personal. My mom is incorrectly considered an indirect victim. Again, Okla ME says she’s number 25. The ME noted in her deaths certificate that she died from blunt force trauma from the tornado. I WILL NOT provide that as documentation. There already is documentation provided, the link to the weathet channel clearly notes that the ME added her as a tornado victim. I do not find anywhere in this page that documents why she is considered an indirect victim. iI will send the press release tomorrow. 24.253.218.66 (talk) 03:51, 28 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
First, I am sorry for your loss. Second, I might have to look through earlier versions of the article to find the source, but I do remember one death being listed as indirect as one person suffered a heart attack during the tornado. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. I believe the NWS recognizes 24 victims including my mom, excluding the heart attack victim you mention. When I gave the interview with the Oklahoman (it’s reference 60) I mentioned the strokes she had and some interpreted those as her cause of death. Which would be an indirect cause of death. I just learned that census.gov mentions two indirect. I will send info via email. 24.253.218.66 (talk) 03:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
How can I send the press release to you? I would ask that it is not used as a reference on the Moore May 20, 2013. While it is a public document, it was sent to a specific audience. I know the victim count was discussed in ME briefings beginnng in early August. Should have saved them but I didn't. I'll see if I can dig them up.
Regarding ME added my mom as the #25 victim, again, the weather channel link specifically states the ME added my mom as #25. There are several other websites that are similar, report the ME added my mom as #25. I can some a couple of those that would help. What else are you looking for to consider my change from with 2 indirect to 25 with one indirect? SniperAsset (talk) 11:31, 30 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Looking at the records listed here, and based on the age mentioned in the article, it appears that your mother is already listed as one of the 24 direct fatalities. The two indirect fatalities were the heart attack and the teenager who committed suicide in 2018 due to PTSD. I'd have to do digging, but I remember the heart attack victim from the days after the tornado, with the death toll (at the time) changed from 24 to 23 +1 indirect. So that person would be listed as one of the first 24. Some media outlets don't distinguish between direct and indirect deaths. As far as sourcing goes, the source would have to be cited in the article for the information to be added there. It's not a matter doubt on any one editor. TornadoLGS (talk) 04:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Here is the press release. I received this from the the reporter who published the article on August 2nd, 2013 in the Oklahoman. I removed the email addresses so hopefully it can send. Note, the ME initially added my mom to the list of victims of the May 31, 2013 El Reno tornado. The last email from Amy Elliott corrected and noted my mom was a victim if the May 20th tornado. Is this sufficient to restore the changes I made to the Wikipedia page, changed from 24 plus 2 indirect to 25 plus 1 indirect? I feel that I've provided enough information to justify restoring my changes. Especially since there doesn't seem to be any compelling sources to keep it the way it is. If this is not enough, let me know what else you need.
------------------------
Got this from the medical examiner this morning. I wanted to share with you. Your mother's name has been added to the official May 20 list.
Diana Baldwin
Senior Reporter
The Oklahoman
405-475-3675 (office)
405-990-0361 (cell)
From: Amy Elliott [email removed]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 9:39 AM
To: Diana Baldwin
Subject: RE: May 2013 Tornado/Storm Update
Amy Elliott
Chief Administrative Officer
901 N. Stonewall
OKC, OK 73117
Phone: 405.239.7141 x232
Fax: 405.272.4045
          • Please note my new email address. [email removed] *****
This email (and attachments if any) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this email is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return email and destroy all copies of the email (and attachments if any).
From: Diana Baldwin [email removed]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 9:23 AM
To: Amy Elliott
Subject: RE: May 2013 Tornado/Storm Update
Would you send the updated May 20 list? Thanks.
Diana Baldwin
Senior Reporter
The Oklahoman
405-475-3675 (office)
405-990-0361 (cell)
From: Amy Elliott [email removed]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 9:20 AM
To: [email for news, media outlets, e.g. KFOR, weather channel, latimes, cbsnews, abc, washpost, etc]
Subject: RE: May 2013 Tornado/Storm Update
Correction, Ms. Begay was a victim from the May 20 tornado.
Amy Elliott
Chief Administrative Officer
901 N. Stonewall
OKC, OK 73117
Phone: 405.239.7141 x232
Fax: 405.272.4045
          • Please note my new email address. [] *****
This email (and attachments if any) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this email is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return email and destroy all copies of the email (and attachments if any).
From: Amy Elliott
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 8:57 AM
To: [email for news, media outlets, e.g. KFOR, weather channel, latimes, cbsnews, abc, washpost, etc]
Subject: RE: May 2013 Tornado/Storm Update
The office of the Chief Medical Examiner can confirm twenty three (23) fatalities from the May 31, 2013 tornados and storms. These victims include eight (8) children and fifteen (15) adults. Thank you.
NAME
AGE
RACE
GENDER
CAUSE
1
WILLIAM ROSE O'NEAL
67
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
2
TIMOTHY SAMARAS
55
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
3
CARL RICHARD YOUNG
45
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
4
RICHARD HENDERSON
35
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
5
MARIA POL MARTIN
26
H
F
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA TO THE HEAD
6
REY CHICOJ POL
17days
H
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA TO THE HEAD
7
CORY DON JOHNSON JR
3
B
M
DROWNING
8
DUSTIN HEATH BRIDGES
32
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE INJURIES
9
PAUL SAMARAS
24
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
10
FLORINDA SANTOS TECUN
34
H
F
PROBABLE DROWNING
11
SAMUEL CIFUENTES SANTOS
33
H
M
PROBABLE DROWNING
12
BRANDON SANTOS
8
H
M
PROBABLE DROWNING
13
ALEX CIFUENTES SANTOS
4
H
M
PROBABLE DROWNING
14
CHRISTOPHER SANTOS
4
H
M
PROBABLE CLOSED HEAD INJURY
15
LESLEY SARAT-SANTOS
7
H
F
TRAUMATIC ASPHYXIA
16
TIMOTHY SHRUM
21
W
M
DROWNING
17
TERRA SHRUM
3
W
F
DROWNING
18
JAMES TALBERT
65
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE INJURIES
19
BRANDIE KAY PERRY
40
W
F
DROWNING
20
DORENIA HAMILTON
79
B
F
PROBABLE DROWNING
21
YOLANDA SARAT-SANTOS
34
H
F
TRAUMATIC ASPHYXIA
22
DESTINY LOVE SHRUM
4
W
F
DROWNING
23
KATHRYN BEGAY
90
AI
F
BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA TO THE HEAD, SEQUELA
Amy Elliott
Chief Administrative Officer
901 N. Stonewall
OKC, OK 73117
Phone: 405.239.7141 x232
Fax: 405.272.4045
          • Please note my new email address. [] *****
This email (and attachments if any) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this email is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return email and destroy all copies of the email (and attachments if any).
From: Amy Elliott
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:33 PM
To: ' [email for news, media outlets, e.g. KFOR, weather channel, latimes, cbsnews, abc, washpost, etc]
Subject: RE: May 2013 Tornado/Storm Update
Importance: High
The office of the Chief Medical Examiner can confirm twenty two (22) fatalities from the May 31, 2013 tornados and storms. These victims include eight (8) children and fourteen (14) adults. Thank you.
NAME
AGE
RACE
GENDER
CAUSE
1
WILLIAM ROSE O'NEAL
67
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
2
TIMOTHY SAMARAS
55
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
3
CARL RICHARD YOUNG
45
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
4
RICHARD HENDERSON
35
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
5
MARIA POL MARTIN
26
H
F
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA TO THE HEAD
6
REY CHICOJ POL
17days
H
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA TO THE HEAD
7
CORY DON JOHNSON JR
3
B
M
DROWNING
8
DUSTIN HEATH BRIDGES
32
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE INJURIES
9
PAUL SAMARAS
24
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA
10
FLORINDA SANTOS TECUN
34
H
F
PROBABLE DROWNING
11
SAMUEL CIFUENTES SANTOS
33
H
M
PROBABLE DROWNING
12
BRANDON SANTOS
8
H
M
PROBABLE DROWNING
13
ALEX CIFUENTES SANTOS
4
H
M
PROBABLE DROWNING
14
CHRISTOPHER SANTOS
4
H
M
PROBABLE CLOSED HEAD INJURY
15
LESLEY SARAT-SANTOS
7
H
F
TRAUMATIC ASPHYXIA
16
TIMOTHY SHRUM
21
W
M
DROWNING
17
TERRA SHRUM
3
W
F
DROWNING
18
JAMES TALBERT
65
W
M
MULTIPLE BLUNT FORCE INJURIES
19
BRANDIE KAY PERRY
40
W
F
DROWNING
20
DORENIA HAMILTON
79
B
F
PROBABLE DROWNING
21
YOLANDA SARAT-SANTOS
34
H
F
TRAUMATIC ASPHYXIA
22
DESTINY LOVE SHRUM
4
W
F
PENDING
Amy Elliott
Chief Administrative Officer
901 N. Stonewall
OKC, OK 73117
Phone: 405.239.7141 x232
Fax: 405.272.4045
          • Please note my new email address. [] *****
This email (and attachments if any) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this email is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return email and destroy all copies of the email (and attachments if any).
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return email and destroy all copies of the email (and attachments if any). SniperAsset (talk) 15:30, 7 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Okay, I found one source for that [1]. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:43, 31 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Keep in mind, the NWS can have a different count of victims than everyone else. Since June 1, 2013, that count has been 1 less than the Medical Examiners count. If Wikipedia wants to publish the NWS count then please make sure it is documented as such. The count is 25 as recognized by the Oklahoma Medical Examiner. They did the autopsies on EVERY victim. They decided to count the heart attack that the NWS does not. My problem is with the "and 2 indirect victims". Which means my mom is considered an indirect victim. People pay attention to what is published by Wikipedia. There's no doubt in my mind, that by publishing 24 + 2 indirect victims, my mom and the suicide, others have also published that information because they saw it on Wikipedia. The ME determined my mom died from blunt force trauma to the head from the tornado. I wish I could take back my mention of the 2 strokes she suffered in my interview with the Oklahoman. I think people see that and think she died from the strokes. The strokes were a result of the skull fracture. Her doctors had to decide what to treat - the skull fracture or her high blood pressure, heart condition.They rightfully chose the skull fracture. That changed her medication which played a part in her suffering the strokes. The weather channel link mentions the medical examiner raised the toll to 25. That is already posted by wikipedia as a reference. I can provide 2 more articles from news outlets that mention the same press release. I cannot find how to attach the press release. And when I do provide it to you, I ask that you not post it as a reference. While it is a public document, it's was directed to a specific audience. SniperAsset (talk) 01:34, 2 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
I tried to cut/paste the press release but I cannot reply because it's a press release. It has email addresses. Wikipedia blocks it. The upload file functionality looks like a file I upload is available to all users. So I'm stuck. SniperAsset (talk) 01:55, 2 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Sorry for the late reply. I haven't really been on Wikipedia lately. I think there really is some confusion over what we're arguing about. But it appears the discrepancy is over the heart attack victim, not your mother. You mention that the ME's death toll has been one greater than the NWS count since June 1, 2013 but your mother passed away on August 1. Based on the article history, the first mention of an indirect fatality was on May 29. A list of the ages of direct victims given here includes a 90-year-old woman as one of 24 direct fatalities. So, again, she is already listed as one of the direct victims. As far as I can tell, the timeline of the death toll works like this:
Initial death toll (after erroneous reports are corrected): 24
As of May 29: NWS death toll is 23 +1 indirect. ME death toll is 24
Death of Kathryn Begay on August 1, 2013. NWS death toll is 24 +1 indirect. ME death toll is 25.
Suicide of Xavier Delgado on May 6, 2018. NWS death toll is 24 +2 indirect. Not sure how the suicide counts for the ME. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
So the ME death toll counts the heart attack from the initial 24 bodies recovered, but the NWS counts it as indirect. When your mother passed in August, she was added to the direct death toll. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for getting back, was just thinking about messaging you. I provided the ME press release. I'm not sure what else I can do.
(1) The ME has declared 25 victims. The ME did autopsies on all victims, the 24 that died on May 20 and my mom after she died on August 1st. This number includes the heart attack victim. That victim should be considered a tornado victim and not an indirect victim.
(2) I have provided the press release as compelling documentation that my mom should be considered a tornado victim and the number of victims should be reported as 25 and not 24.
(3) The NWS is the only organization that does not recoginze the heart attack death that I am aware of. My mom is included in the NWS number.
(4) Either way my mom should be acknowledged as a direct victim and not one of the two in the statement "(plus two indirect fatalities)".
(5) I am requesting to change the wording "killing 24 people (plus two indirect fatalities)" to "killing 25 people (plus one indirect fatality)".
(6) I am not aware of any documentation that argues against what I am requesting. None is provided by Wikipedia on the page in question. I do not know where "(plus two indirect fatalities)" came from.
(7) Last May 20th, the 10 anniversary, all three primary Oklahoma City TV stations reported 25 victims.
(8) it is critical that it is changed as other reporting of number of tornado victims will use whatever is documented by Wikipedia. It has already happened.
- Again, I'm not sure what else I can do. If there is, please let me know. SniperAsset (talk) 02:27, 10 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
(1) Heart attack victims are generally regarded as indirect since they were not injured by the tornado itself. This has been the case with other tornadoes (However, of further review, I couldn't find direct mention of a heart attack, only that mention of an indirect death was added on May 29.)
(2 and 4) I have stated several times now that your mother is already included in the direct death toll. When she died, the direct death toll listed on the Wikipedia article was increased from 23 to 24.
(3) Other organizations frequently do not distinguish between direct and indirect deaths. It is a similar case for the Joplin tornado.
(5) At this point I do actually want to look into the first death documented as indirect
(6) I will take a closer look at the article history. I will start a thread on the article's talk page; that might get more editors on board in regard to that death.
(7) See point 3.
(8) Other sources aren't all using Wikipedia, as indicated by the reports you mentioned. TornadoLGS (talk) 04:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
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