User talk:TFOWR/Sandbox/IB Diploma Programme

IB DP lead discussion

Dumping the exam dates is fine, but somehow the sentence needs to be rephrased such that it tells that each course ends with a written examination. Don't worry about your writing; you've done a nice job. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

It's better. I'd wait for Candy to have a look, and then paste it in. I removed a comma, but for some reason seem to have forgotten how to use commas, or can't always see them, so it might be wrong. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Can't help with the commas - I have an ENGVAR problem with them: I start adapting to serial commas and lose the ability to see comma issues elsewhere ;-) Your removal made sense to me, FWIW. TFOWR 15:49, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I have the same problem. For FAC it's a real problem; for GAN it'll be fine. If we need, I know some good writers to do a brush up, but this is much better than the previous lead. If Candy doesn't check in tonight - huge time difference! - let's just go with it. I'd be very happy not to have this lingering. Need to run, but will check back later .... Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Hey there. Some thoughts:

• "usually consisting of two or three papers" - "papers" could be confusing to non-native English speakers. Perhaps "essays" or some similar word?
• Maybe wikilink sixth form college? As an American I had no idea what that was.

Seems okay otherwise. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I've wikilinked "sixth form college" (catching a typo of mine in the process...), and also "private school", though I'd guess that that's something most readers would understand (at least they're not referred to as "public schools", which I've always found odd...!) Not sure about "papers" - agree we need to change it. Would essays work, or would "exams" be better? "Exams" is a bit vague, I guess... TFOWR 16:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe clarify it to "term paper"? Or maybe "report" or "composition". Hmm. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I've noticed that Cinchbug is active, so have asked him to jump in. I think his content knowledge is the strongest. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Hey, folks! HelloAnnyong, congrats on being given the mop! I'm sure you'll do a great job as an admin.

Is there a particular version of the lead that you all are looking at? I only ask because I didn't see any reference to sixth-formers in that section (though there was at least one later on). As for my content knowledge, well, I guess I'm pretty familiar with the overall DP requirements, but the stuff I know the most about would be the nitty-gritty details of the requirements and procedures within the mathematics courses.

The word "paper" or "papers" refers to examinations (more specifically, "examination papers"). All IB courses require at least two papers and many require three papers. An examination paper is exactly that: a timed examination that all students take under the supervision of a proctor/invigilator. Almost all of the papers are short answer, extended answer/response, or essays, though each Group 4 course has one multiple choice paper. Some subjects like Language A and Language B, in lieu of one of the examination papers, require an oral examination.

All courses require some sort of internal assessment (IA), which is done well before they sit for the exams; in Group 4 (science) these are labs, for language and humanities courses these are usually essays, in art courses there is a presentation of a portfolio of work which is evaluated by a visiting examiner, in music the students record performances to be sent to examiners (though they also have other written requirements, so whether this is taking the place of an exam paper or is an IA is not clear to me), and you can look at the IB Group 5 subjects page to get an idea of what the IAs are like for mathematics. The IAs are completed by the students and graded by the teacher. Then the grades are entered in IBIS (a program for IB Coordinators) and a representative sample of the class is chosen by IBIS (minimum sample size of 6, IIRC, unless of course the class has fewer than 7 students, in which case the entire class is the sample; the bigger the class size, the bigger the sample). This sample is then sent to a moderator to make sure that the teacher is awarding marks properly--if necessary, the teachers marks are raised or lowered (usually the latter), and then a sample of the IAs graded by that moderator are sent to another moderator to make sure that the first moderator is doing his/her job properly (there may also be one more level of moderation on top of that, but I don't remember for certain). Then the final IA score is added in with the marks earned by the student on the examination papers (with the IA comprising 20% of the overall score for the student in mathematics; that percent is a little different for each subject group).

... I don't know if any of that is relevant or not, but, in any case, we've started school again, so I may not have much time to dedicate to this, but I'm happy to help when and where I can. Regards, • CinchBug • 19:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Cinchbug, do you think it would best to write "written examination" for the lead and just leave it at that? Rather than trying to get the terminology right for paper/essay/ etc?

Version being looked at is User:TFOWR/Sandbox/IB Diploma Programme (expanded lead, mostly). TFOWR 19:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, got it. I hadn't realized that I was one "level" deeper in the sandbox. Sure, I think that would be okay, or perhaps "timed written examination" if we want to be a little more precise. Maybe this:

Subjects are assessed using both internal and external assessments, and courses finish with an externally assessed series of examinations, usually consisting of two or three timed written examinations. Internal assessment varies by subject (there may be oral presentations, practical work, or written works) and in most cases is initially graded by the classroom teacher, whose grades are then verified by an appointed, external moderator.

I made a few changes to the sentence about IAs, too. What do you think? • CinchBug • 19:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, good! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:07, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Cool. If I get a chance this week, I'll ask some of the other IB teachers I know to swing by and take a look. We might ask LaMome, too, although I haven't seen her around for awhile.

By the way, TK, how have you been doing? I seem to recall that you originally said that your eye surgery was to be scheduled for September, so hopefully it will be soon? In any event, I hope that you're doing okay and not stressing the ol' eyeballs too much! Regards, • CinchBug • 20:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the support, Cinch. I'm okay with your proposed rewrite above. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

On the basis of everyone violently agreeing, I've added CB's proposed text. Any thoughts on "going live"? TK, you were keen to get this done fairly quickly, I'm easy either way, but I suspect we're pretty much there? TFOWR 21:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking that we might make one slight adjustment (ironically) to what I proposed about the IA sentence. Here's my original suggestion with modifications in bold:

Subjects are assessed using both internal and external assessments, and courses finish with an externally assessed series of examinations, usually consisting of two or three timed written examinations. Internal assessment varies by subject (there may be oral presentations, practical work, or written works) and in most cases is initially graded by the classroom teacher, whose grades are then verified or modified, as necessary, by an appointed, external moderator.

Of course, I don't mean to nit-pick, but the entire point of the moderators is to make moderations when they are required. While the title "Moderator" may seem to imply this, I'm a little worried that readers may not fully understand what they (the moderators) are actually doing--I fear that readers may see them as some sort of automatic "rubber stamp," though that is not a logical conclusion, given their title, of course. (If you wonder why I think this, then please ask me about the "rock or something" story ... ) Regards, • CinchBug • 21:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Updated. CB, you have my permission to edit "my" sandbox ;-) (And agree with the change - makes more sense). TFOWR 21:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Understood, TFWOR. ;) Regards, • CinchBug • 22:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks everyone - surgery in few days & busy at work. That's why I'm not editing, but am thrilled to see this effort. My eyes are really blurry at the moment. The lede shouldn't have any information not expanded in the article: do we mention moderators in the article? If not, then not for the lead. We need to get it done b/c GA reviews aren't usually shelved for very long; if the changes aren't done then the review will close as unsuccessful. FWIW - this entire article is such a group project everyone still editing on wiki will get credit for bringing this to Good article status. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

• I've pushed this into the article - easier to edit, keep in synch with other editors' edits, etc. Might be worth taking a quick look before we ping the nice GAR reviewer... TFOWR 10:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Looks great. I have to work and will off-line but if NastyHousecat (love the name!) doesn't notice it, I'll give a ping later today. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)