Tartridrad

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October 2022

Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia. However, please do not use unreliable sources such as blogs, your own website, websites and publications with a poor reputation for checking the facts or with no editorial oversight, expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, that are promotional in nature, or that rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions, as one of Wikipedia's core policies is that contributions must be verifiable through reliable sources, preferably using inline citations. If you require further assistance, please look at Help:Contents/Editing Wikipedia, or ask at the Teahouse. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 04:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended confirmed restrictions

Hello,

Please be aware that all articles related to politics, ethnic relations, and conflicts involving Armenia, Azerbaijan, or both—broadly construed and explicitly including the Armenian genocide—are subject to an extended confirmed restriction. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh I saw my last edit deleted again. I read your explanation now. Older source was originated from interpretation of one Author. We can find hundreds supporting arguments to this author or opposing arguments from different authors. Modern authors can't be absolute source of truth. However, I inspected declaration, writing and statements of Enver Pasha and I couldn't find any quote from Enver Pasha that he blamed Armenians for the defeat against Russians. This idea comes from retrospective viewpoint to history and contradict with statements and views of Enver Pasha. I understand that we should write articles considering politics, ethnic relations and conflicts today. However, distorting facts just sake of modern political situation isn't correct way to approach history. I think my edits should be re-added. Tartridrad (talk) 04:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

According to this source, it was privately that he blamed Armenians. And this source provides a citation for a private discussion where Enver blamed Armenians, in "Siyasal Anılar" by Hüseyin Cahit Yalçın. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:13, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh Debate isn't Enver's words to his friends in private. Source of debate is that whether Enver and his comrades used propaganda method to accuse Armenian population for defeat at Battle of Sarikamish. Yesterday I couldn't find book of "Siyasal Anılar" by Hüseyin Cahit Yalçın, it is old rare book. I will share my idea after finding this book. Tartridrad (talk) 05:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay. I removed "publicly" from the article. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Please revert your edits on the Sarikamish article. These are unreliable WP:PRIMARY sources such as a dairy you are using, which contradict the secondary sources written by historians. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh These sources are written by commanders who served in the battle. Hafız Hakkı Pasha, commander of 10th infantry corps and commander of 3rd army from 10 January 1915, Ziya Yergök commander of 82nd infantry regiment, Şerif İlden chief of staff of 9th Corps. I didn't write Arif Baytın, commander of 29th division during the battle, he was taken prisoner like Şerif İlden and Ziya Yergök. I personally inspected these 3 sources carefully and Armenians were mentioned frequently but these sources never said or implied that they lost the battles because of Armenians, thus we must take action against Armenians. These books are translated to English and you can check that there isn't even one implication that claim of secondary source has any supportive evidence.

I can revert the change but I am sure that claim of historian is originated from inductive reasoning contradicting with real events. Tartridrad (talk) 04:56, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

These would not be considered reliable sources because of WP:PRIMARY and WP:OLDSOURCES. You would need to find a modern historian that claims Enver never blamed Armenians (and not a "historian" that also denies the genocide). Please revert yourself, because what you're now doing is edit warring (WP:EW). --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:42, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh I have modern historians (for instance Sarikamish Operation by Yavuz Özdemir and another source with same name by Nurhan Aydın, they were written in the last 30 years). These historians support my point on the other hand they had a lot of mistakes in their books, I personally determined these mistakes and wrote correct information in place to this article. You can trust me more than any historian in this topic because I read all of books written by historians focused on Battle of Sarikamish and I saw that they used certain sources and I read these sources, observing that they misinterpreted a lot of details (that's why these modern works are in conflict in tens of subjects. I solved all of conflicted subjects with my assessment using all sources together) and many times these misinterpreted details resulted in broad misjudgements.

Russian sources in agreement that Winter condition effected very little to development of battles and it should be considered that result of battles stems from great tactical decisions by Russian commanders especially General Yudenich and his staff. On the other hand, Ottoman sources said that Winter condition costed huge casualties and

In regard to incorrect information in modern sources, I used Caucasian Battlefield by P. Muratoff and W. E. D. Allen for size and movements of Russian Army because it was well documented and described in detail. On the other hand, information about Ottoman army in the book of P. Muratoff and W. E. D. Allen lacks majority of Turkish sources because name of commanders in the Ottoman army is mostly wrong. They wrote that commander of 9th Corps commander was Mustafa Fevzi Çakmak (later chief of general of Turkey) and commander of 11th Corps was Abdülkerim Pasha. I had compared this with Ottoman Sources and all Ottoman sources wrote that commander of 9th Corps was Ahmet Fevzi Big (they have same secondary name, Fevzi but they are different person) and commander of 11th Corps was Ziya Kutnak (Abdülkerim Pasha appointed commander of 11th Corps later). There were a lot of basic mistakes in P. Muratoff and W. E. D. Allen book in relation to Ottoman side.

When all's said and done, I used method of Comparative historical research. I didn't copy and merge sources together, writing this article.

Returning to the subject of Enver, Talat and other Ottomans leaders opinions and propaganda methods regarding Armenian Genocide, I couldn't find any records that Enver and Talat blamed the Armenians for the defeat of Battle of Sarikamish. If you found, I will accept that I was wrong about this subject but I don't accept misevalution of historian or historians contradicting with Enver's statement and Ottomans newspaper controlled by Ottoman leaders especially by Enver and Talat Pashas. Tartridrad (talk) 08:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any sources explicitly saying Enver didn't blame Armenians, or sources that just fail to mention Whether he did or didn't? Because you need sources saying he didn't. Interpreting sources that don't even mention it is original research.

"Enver blamed the defeat on the Armenians"

"For this crushing defeat Enver and Talaat blamed the Armenians"

"Met with disastrous defeat, Enver reportedly blamed disloyal Armenian volunteers under his command"

"Enver blamed the defeat on the Armenians"

"The Young Turk authorities falsely accused the Armenians of fomenting a general rebellion and pointed to what they termed the Armenian role in their defeat at Sarikamish"

--KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:53, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh Sources I wrote you mentioned battles and Enver's speechs in detail. They addressed Armenians frequently in Bergmann (7-21 November 1914) Offensive, 1 month earlier than Battle of Sarikamish. They wrote that Armenian soldiers mostly deserted to Russian side or to their hometown. Remaining Armenian soldiers deserted Russian side during Bergmann Offensive, giving important intelligence to Russians. Russians attacked Turkish 33rd Division on 17 November, gaining information that 33rd Division is weakest Ottoman Division holding too long line of defense. However, all of these information are for Bergmann Offensive because numbers of Armenian soldiers diminished the almost zero in Battle of Sarikamish (22 December 1914-17 January 1915) as well as Enver Pasha ordered Armenian soldiers pulled from front and be recruited in rear services. That's why Armenian soldiers weren't mentioned in Battle of Sarikamish in these primary sources (chief of staff of 9th Corps Şerif İlden, commander of 29th Division Arif Baytın). Enver Pasha made tens of statements, declaration and announcements about Battle of Sarikamish during World War 1.

As for your main question. You said that do you have a source that specially say Enver didn't blame Armenians for the defeat. I didn't read a sentence in any primary sources that Enver didn't blame defeat for Armenians because this is not up for debate. Enver Pasha never blamed Armenians for defeat at Sarikamish, thus no primary source at that time said that Enver blamed Armenians for defeat of Sarikamish. That's why any source argued about role of Armenians in Battle of Sarikamish. With your logic, I can prove that you are a neutron star because in your life, you never said that you aren't a neutron star. Tartridrad (talk) 11:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)