User talk:Tewdar/sandbox/nostra

Discussion

I was about to suggest something along these lines, but good to see that you have already started working on the table :) –Austronesier (talk) 14:40, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Bomhard includes any old thing! 😂 You got any good sources for Starostin (ie not .pngs)? Also, do you know the best way to include notes that are explained just below the table?  Tewdar  15:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Something like {notelist} I guess, but I probably want to give it a special name...  Tewdar  15:37, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

• @Austronesier: - what do you think of the table? I was thinking just replace the summaries I wrote today with that, and delete the phylogeny that claims to be a "fairly representative grouping..."  Tewdar  17:07, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

• Just revert it if you think it sux... 😁👍  Tewdar  17:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

It looks good! Do you know what Pedersen, Illich-Svitych and Dolgopolsky said about Elamite? We could add an extra column for it. –Austronesier (talk) 17:22, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I'd have to check, but I don't recall any of them except Bomhard mentioning Elamite (or "Elamo-Dravidian") as a member of Nostratic...  Tewdar  19:04, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, after reading this edit summary, I can only conclude that you don't count Allan Bomhard as a linguist. 🙄  Tewdar  19:43, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

LOL, I didn't think of wide-rangers when writing this. And I haven't been really aware until recently that Bomhard accepts "Elamo-Dravidian" as a clade within Nostratic.

Btw, I have found this about Dolgopolsky including Nivkh and Elamite in Nostratic (I hope the page is visible for you). I am still looking for the source cited by Greenberg, Dolgopolsky's "On Personal Pronouns in the Nostratic Languages" (1984) to confirm this. –Austronesier (talk) 19:47, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

I think it's in this anthology. Or we could just cite Greenberg, perhaps?  Tewdar  20:14, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Nevermind, I managed to acquire Personal Pronouns in the Nostratic Languages now... will report back. 😁👍  Tewdar  20:28, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Cool! And here is the Introduction to his 2008 dictionary. On the first page he writes: "It is very plausible that there are other members of the Nostratic macrofamily: Chukchee-Kamchadal, Eskimo-Aleut, Gilyak, Elamic (possibly connected with Dravidian) and possibly also Etruscan." This looks like a "maybe" rather than a N for all of these. Maybe put a (Y) in these cells? –Austronesier (talk) 20:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

The more the merrier! I'll try and do it this evening if you don't get a chance. Perhaps we need a {meh} template?  Tewdar  08:05, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

• If there are no better options for "maybe", I guess a yellow background with a bracketed green tick and a note will suffice. Perhaps just a normal tick and a note would do? Alternatively, we could just use colours...?  Tewdar  15:42, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Maybe. Anyway, I'm just wondering if Starostin and Illich-Svitych also lumped Yukaghir within Uralic? It's easy to miss like in Dolgopolsky's Introduction, §1 (Elamite is there too, yeah!). –Austronesier (talk) 16:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, he calls it "Uralic (Uralo-Yukagir)" in "The Nostratic macrofamily and linguistic palaeontology" too. Never EUI, that's all I can say...😳  Tewdar  18:20, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

That book doesn't include Elamite as far as I can tell though (document doesn't support text search so I may have made a mistake... not EUI yet) Perhaps we should make a note if a language is included/excluded in different articles or whatever.  Tewdar  18:28, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Dolgopolsky does however say in that book that his Nostratic dictionary is going to be more comprehensive, so perhaps we should just use that.  Tewdar  18:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we have to go that fine-grained as to track the developing ideas of individual scholars. We should just use the most recent sources. That's why I prefer the latest edition of Dolgopolsky's dictionary from 2012. Uhm...what is EUI? –Austronesier (talk) 18:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

According to Greenberg 'Sifting the evidence' p55, Illich-Svitych did not group Yukaghir within Uralic. Still not sure about Starostin. WP:EUI 🍺🍺🍺 🥴  Tewdar  19:06, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

More precisely, Greenberg says:In the introduction written by Illich-Svitych (1971:61) he notes in reference to Yukaghir that the work of Collinder, Angere and Tailleur, while not allowing us to consider Yukaghir a Uralic language does allow us to consider its Nostratic character. I believe that this agrees with the conclusions of the scholars mentioned by Illich-Svitych who did not consider Yukaghir a Uralic language but rather thought that it was related to Uralic as a whole. So... not sure if this means Illich-Svitych believed in Uralo-Yukagir or not...  Tewdar  19:13, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

LOL, agree about EUI. Also: never do a Wikitongues video UI, like good old Marty 😁.

Illich-Svitych does not see that the correspondences between Yukaghir and Uralic point to a special relationship between these two families. But he says somewhat cryptically that the evidence brought forward Collinder and others "allows to think of a Nostratic character of Yukaghir". I have interpreted this as a kind of maybe for inclusion in Nostratic. –Austronesier (talk) 19:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, that's probably it. A member of Nostratic, but not part of a genetic Uralo-Yukagir family. And without looking, I'm pretty sure Marty must be the Cornish language speaker. Well... better than nothing, I suppose.  Tewdar  19:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm still looking for what Sergei Starostin had to say about Elamite. George Starostin is quite clear about not including it in Nostratic, but that's maybe genuinely his own hypothesis, and not based on his father's work.

Btw, did you know that today is Crackpot Day? First this one, now this poor soul. It's so uninformed that I just stick to WP:DFTT. –Austronesier (talk) 20:12, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, Balto-Slavic and Ramesses III. Somehow I think I can guess what those discussions are about. So I guess editing the Nostratic article is a bit like a holiday for you, then? I find that editing Astérix helps me relax, myself. Happy Crackpot Day, I'm off to drink some Mena Dhu to celebrate! 😁👍  Tewdar  20:36, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

• Hey, I managed to find a copy of "Опыт сравнения ностратических языков" by Иллич-Свитыч! Now, what's the Russian for 'Elamite language' again?  Tewdar  11:22, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

You're asking the right one, since the anti-Balto-Slavic troll thinks I'm a Russian agent 😁! It's эламский, but when searching, just look up until the K because it might appear in a different case form. –Austronesier (talk) 12:54, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

• Hey, благодарю вас! I already worked it out, but I can't find эламский anywhere, not even listed in the abbreviations used. This doesn't prove a negative, but I can't find it. My version doesn't support text search though, and I'm not OCRing that! Do you have, erm, access to the book?

• I'm about to watch that YouTube video about "How To Use NevGen Predictor & Whit Athey's Haplogroup Predictor" 😂  Tewdar  15:51, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

• In the present political climate, I'm not sure if it's best to be a Russian agent or a far-right racist anti-trans conspiracy theorist (which is what I am apparently - hey, you don't think people take my userboxes seriously, do you? I'm not really an absolute monarchist, you know!)  Tewdar  19:05, 23 April 2022 (UTC)