User talk:The Four Deuces/Archives/2021/November

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UK's head of state

Howdy. I think if you were to argue that the British monarch is not the United Kingdom's head of state? It might be a very tough sell. GoodDay (talk) 01:35, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, as I said, head of state is not a concept in law. Coke and Blackstone never mentioned it and there are no UK statutes. It's just a concept that arose in the 1960s to draw equivalence between kings and queens in monarchies and presidents in republics. In fact they carry out similar roles and receive 21 gun salutes. When the U.S. president visits the UK for example, he is treated as an equal to the Queen, while PMs are not. But English law does not consider the Queen to be the head of state, but the personification of the state. A prosecution in the UK for example takes the form of "Rv." Treaties are between the Queen and the foreign state. The national anthem is God Save the Queen. Subjects swear allegiance to the Queen. But Americans don't swear allegiance to Joe Biden or ask God to that he may long reign over us. TFD (talk) 01:56, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, Canada's constitution doesn't mention 'head of state' either. Also, to really set one's hair on fire, the US president is called 'chief of state'. Then there's the emperor of Japan, etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 01:58, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Right. Head of State is not in the constitution of any Western country, but is a concept from the 1960s to group presidents and sovereigns together. There is some similarity between the office of the King of Sweden and the President of Finland. They are highest in protocol, get 21 gun salutes, receive ambassadors, open parliament, etc. But it's hard to apply the concept to Commonwealth realms, because they have two people who conceivably could be described as head of state. I wonder what Mies thinks about this? TFD (talk) 02:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh jeez. I wish Skyring would adopt Mies' habit of disappearing for several months. Not sure which is the bigger headache, the advocate of the Monarchist League of Canada or the advocate for the Governor-General is head of state in Australia. PS - Imagine the damage those two could create, if they ever joined forces. GoodDay (talk) 02:21, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, are you running around all over Wikipedia complaining about me? A look at your contributions - and I've only glanced at it - and I see you running to at least three different people making what an impartial observer might call a personal attack. I really wouldn't mind if you used the established wikiprocess. You know, reliable sources, NPOV, and so on. The problem is that with you it is all OR. Regardless of your opinions, the facts seem to be swinging against you. The Queen is the head of a notional Australian monarchy but there is no law saying that makes her head of state. Malcolm Turnbull, head of the Australian Republican Movement for many years, spent the Nineties steadfast in his public declaration that the Queen was the head of state and the only way we Australians could get an Australian as head of state was to remove the Queen.

As Prime Minister in 2016, he specifically said that the Governor-General was the head of state. I hadn't heard that until this morning when you began edit-warring to get it removed from Monarchy of Australia. This is literally a game-changer. This, I suspect, is where the Governor-General and five State Governors found the impetus to describe themselves as heads of state, starting a few years ago. This isn't something I made up, nor is it some join the dots conspiracy theory. This is real people saying real things. The people actually doing the job. When the Prime Minister and the Governor-General are both saying that the Governor-General is the head of state, I don't see how you can realistically pin that on me. I was as surprised as anyone else to discover the change in position.

NPOV requires that we give it adequate coverage, I suggest. Otherwise our readers are going to be wondering why the government says one thing and Wikipedia says another. And, if you have some problem with my on-wiki behaviour, I'd prefer that you take it up in an appropriate forum, rather than go sneaking around trying to canvass support. I see an inference here that I might have made an edit. I didn't. Happy to have a checkuser look at this. Again, you want to complain about me, get your facts straight, do it in the right place. Please. --Pete (talk) 04:45, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I didn't suspect it was you logged-out. I prefer to believe that you wouldn't try such a thing. GoodDay (talk) 05:31, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

(TFD) Nitpicking. Harris was acting president for 1 hr & 25 minutes on 19 November 2021. GoodDay (talk) 15:06, 24 November 2021 (UTC)