Thegman81

Welcome!

Hello, Thegman81, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions.

I noticed that one of the first articles you edited was Draft:Daisy Clover (band), which appears to be dealing with a topic with which you may have a conflict of interest. In other words, you may find it difficult to write about that topic in a neutral and objective way, because you are, work for, or represent, the subject of that article. Your recent contributions may have already been undone for this very reason.

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{Help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! GSS (talk|c|em) 07:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi GSS,

My article/page that I am trying to add to wikipedia is a rock band from the 1960s called Daisy Clover, which did indeed exist. To be honest, the drummer in the band was my father. I believe I should be allowed to add this article as it does abide by the wikipedia rules. I have no help making the article, I have done it all myself, which was not easy as I have never done this before. The image was a newspaper that my father has kept from the 60s, I cropped out the photo with the band members and added it to the article to make it look nice. Can you please arrange to have my article approved or advise me what I need to do to amend it so that it can be approved. There is no conflict of interest. Yes my father was in the band, however I am still just a person trying to add a true and accurate historical topic to Wikipedia.

Hope to here from you soon,

Gino (Thegman81)

Based on the advert you posted on upwork.com, you agreed to share your account log in details with any freelancer who can expand and approve your draft and you also accepted that you are not skilled enough to expand it yourself so can you please explain who you hired to work on your draft? Regarding the image I nominated for deletion please see commons:COM:L. Thank you. GSS (talk|c|em) 10:57, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Wow, how did you even know that my job post on upwork was even me haha wow. Well full honestly as i have nothing to hide, I'm simply trying to share with the world, what I believe to be an important piece of history, in Australian rock. Now, as I was attempting to create this article, at one point I felt that I was in over my head, with all the coding etc. So i decided to ask for help. I have use Upwork to source SEO for a website/ online store once (that is totally unrelated to this article) and thought it might a great idea to find someone in the world to help me. Not realizing that it actually violated any rules. Now, over night I ended up watching more tutorials and with much hard work figured it out myself. I never accepted any of the job offers and about 5 hours ago i even deleted the my job ad. Well before you even made your claim.

I'm not sure how i can prove this to you, I guess I can actually describe in detail how I manage to create/design the draft that you see? Besides, it's really not that fancy.. Geez, I had no idea that it be would this difficult to create an article in Wikipedia.

Now, with the photo. Your link has a lot writing there, can you please just advise what I need to do precisely to have a photo of the band members or is it simply impossible? I have many other photos/images from the late 60s, shall I use a different one? My father has a old scrap book of photos and newspaper cut outs of the Daisy Clover. I obviously can't take any new ones from today.

Thanks and hope to hear from you soon.

Gino (Thegman81)

Thank you for clarifying. I have changed the {{UDP}} tag to {{COI}} as per your message above (see WP:COIEDIT). Please note sharing an account with others is not permitted, and evidence of doing so will result in the account being blocked please see WP:NOSHARING. You've licensed the File:Daisy Clover.jpg photo with {{self}}, which claims that you are the copyright holder of the image, but as you mentioned in the image description that you took this image from The Sun newspaper, the copyright is either owned by The Sun or by the photographer who took the picture. Since you are not the copyright holder, that is not the correct permission to indicate. Wikipedia does not accept images that violate the copyrights of others. It is almost never appropriate to upload an image that you found on some internet website. In general, images are only accepted where the uploader has explicitly agreed to license the image under terms that permit anyone to use the image for any purpose. If you would like to upload an image that you took personally, then please, feel free otherwise please follow the instructions at WP:PERMISSION if you're going to upload an image that you do not own. Happy editing. GSS (talk|c|em) 13:04, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying GSS. Ok I will upload a different photo and please let me know once I have done it, if there is any issue with that one. You have now changed the message at the topic of my draft to 'I may have close connection with the topic'. Yes my father was the drummer of the band which i was honest with you, but should not matter. At the end of the day I am just someone in the world trying to add this information/topic to Wikipedia. If it wasn't me someone else would or could in the same fashion. All if information is correct and true and I have done a good job citing and back everything up. Is there anything actually wrong with what is written that you need me to amend? I'm happy to change or remove things just to have it officially uploaded to Wikipedia. Thank you for your help again and hopefully hear back from you soon. Im not even sure how to sign off on this comment. I'm still learning. hopefully this is correct Thegman81 (talk) 22:08, 22 January 2019 (UTC) >Thegman81<

Signing comments

Anywhere you comment, 'sign' your comments by typing four of ~ at the end. In strings of comments at places like Teahouse and Talk pages (yours, articles, drafts) this makes clear who wrote what. Also, when commenting, type one more of : than what starts the comment preceding yours. This indents your comment one more space than the last. David notMD (talk) 13:58, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi

Hi there, saw the original post at the teahouse, and being a bit of an Australian rock music fan, added a couple of extra refs the other night. Re the photos-It's complicated. If the only pics you have were taken by other people at the time, or published in newspapers, not likely, as anything published after 1923 needs permission from the original copyright holder. But a bigger issue getting your article approved will be that while there is no doubt the band existed, so far mostly all there are as references for Daisy Clover are Aussie Rock fan pages/blogs, Youtube clips (which I'm pretty sure are copyright violations- that is, they haven't been uploaded to youtube by their creators; this means according to Wikipedia guidelines, you can't link/use them) or discogs, none of which count as being what Wikipedia calls WP:RS (independent reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy). However, you did mention there were newspaper clippings. Sources don't have to be online; but you will need the name of the newspaper, name of the article, and day/date it was originally published, so readers can locate it if needed. They also need to meet at least one of the criteria in WP:BAND. As your article mentioned chart numbers and TV appearances, your best bet is locating information in the before mentioned reliable sources that support criteria no.2 Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart, or no.12 Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network.

NB while I was looking through the refs, there seems to be a discrepancy in the timeline- The article says Daisy Clover finally disbanded in 1971, but Chrissy Amphlett was born in 1959. In her bio she says she was 15 when she sang with them, so that would make it sometime after 1974 or so?

I don't mean to be discouraging, and sorry if this all sounds like hard work, but it's much more difficult than it looks to write an article and can be a steep learning curve for new users. If you have any questions, feel free to drop a line at my talkpage. (just click on the talk link after my name) Curdle (talk) 14:24, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi Curdle, I had wrote to you on your talkpage but not sure if you saw it or if did it properly. Here's what I wrote: Hi Curdle! Thank you so much for your assistance! Yes well you're correct, the time line simply doesn't add up does it. My father was the one who was feeding me a lot of the information. As I have mentioned, he was the drummer of the band. Now he may have it wrong, this was 50 years ago and he is almost 70 years old. Perhaps the band was reformed in 1971 not 1970 and from sometime from 1971 to somewhere in the mid 70s Chrissy was in the band. My dad did say she was only 14 when she was with the band, so that would've been 1973. My dad, Nick Kenos and Colin deluca were not in the band at that stage. This can all be amended, that's why it's simply a draft for now. Now as for my sources, I believe that they aren't too dissimilar to the sources/references provided with the Wikipedia article on the band Town Criers, and yet they are uploaded to Wiki?.. Yes I have about half a dozen newspaper/magazine articles from the late 1960s, the only problem is most of them don't specify the dates and which newspaper/magazine. My dad is able to advise the name of the newspaper/magazine but not quite the dates. Do you think that will be a problem? Also, what am I to do with them exactly? Am I to add some of the information from each article to the draft, and then somehow upload it to the reference section? also, wouldn't that be copyright infringement, just like the issue with the photo? I have a couple of private photos of the band which I can safety use. But this is becoming way more difficult than I imagined so I probably wont bother with the photo for now. I just want to see if i can get something approved, something similar to Town Criers article, as they were a similar band of that time. My dad actually has this book https://www.bookdepository.com/Whos-Who-Australian-Rock-Chris-Spencer/9781865038919 and it has a little info about the band. It has an email address which i might email them and see what info or evidence they can help for this Wiki article, what do you think? I have spoken to my dad and he is still in contact with Greg Hunt, but he apparently he isn't well and isn't able to talk properly. Apparently he can still sing the song 'Tell Me' some how! LOL.. My dad is going to contact him and he's wife and see what information they can assist with. See if we can clarify the time line of when the band actually ended. If or when this is actually approved, are you able to explain to be the exact process? I'm not sure how all this works... Thanks again for all your assistance on this matter!:)Thegman81 (talk) 21:57, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

the Town Criers meet criteria no.2 of WP:BAND "Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart", and as the article information is sourced, they have the references to prove it. There are two refs to the "Go Set music charts"- if that book you mentioned has any info about chart positions for their singles, that would work. It might be worthwhile posting something on the Australian Music Project Noticeboard WP:AUSMUSIC (not sure how active that project is though). There aren't any actively mandated against sources either... no youtube link refs (no good unless they come from the "official account" of the copyright owner), no refs to discogs or cat45.com (information in both user generated, so not reliable). Thats 6 refs...Kimbo doesn't really look like a reliable source either - the information is probably good, but you need to find it in reliable sources.

Re the Newspapers..you need both dates and titles; you would add the info to the draft then cite it,(see WP:REFB for examples) as you can't scan and link to them for copyright reasons. Libraries and microfilm still exist, so as long as you have dates and newspaper names, it is possible for someone to go find the originals to verify the information if necessary. Some of the best academic books aren't ever put online, and a lot of newspapers don't put their archives up, so offline books, magazines and newspapers are perfectly acceptable. That Whos Who looks good, if you can get the information from it. Just make sure to note the page number.

There are two ways..most new users go through the article creation process WP:AFC. When you are ready, you submit, someone from AFC checks it over, then its either approved, or sent back with suggestions for improvement so you can fix it. This can take awhile. Main reasons for failure are usually notability not proven, non reliable sources, copyright infringement or promotional language. More experienced users that are familiar with writing articles often just move articles straight from draft to article space, however the new page patrollers keep an eye out for arrivals, and while draft articles are given a bit of leeway, once its in mainspace, if it doesnt meet the criteria, any editor can move it back to draft, tag it, or worst case scenario, nominate it for deletion.

Its also highly preferred that editors with a COI go through AFC to ensure neutrality etc. One of the problems with having a COI, is that being familiar with the subject, there will be a whole lot of information (likely the most interesting bits too) that you cant use, because it wont be published anywhere- you have to be careful it doesnt sneak into the article. You can sometimes get good leads, editors must only write what can be cited to an independent, reliable source.

I found this [1]- one of the photos is Daisy Clover...now if you happen to have that clipping, there's a name and date for it. Actually, that link may be enough to say they performed there,although the clipping itself would be better, and might have a bit more info about them. There are also a couple of other books, but they are at the State Library of Victoria. Curdle (talk) 23:24, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your help Curdle. I have done some work on the article. I know some things may need to be changed still but I believe it is looking better. Are you able to have a quick look at it please? Thegman81 (talk) 13:28, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Your thread has been archived

Hi Thegman81! You created a thread called Help with getting my article approved at Wikipedia:Teahouse, but it has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days. You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please create a new thread. Archival by Lowercase sigmabot III, notification delivery by Muninnbot, both automated accounts. You can opt out of future notifications by placing {{bots|deny=Muninnbot}} (ban this bot) or {{nobots}} (ban all bots) on your user talk page. Muninnbot (talk) 19:00, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Daisy Clover (band) has been accepted

Daisy Clover (band), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

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Dan arndt (talk) 13:48, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Congratulations

Sorry for not getting back to you; I didn't have your talkpage watchlisted, so didn't realise you had left a message. But looks like you didn't need my help anyway! Good work! Curdle (talk) 22:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi mate. Yes and thanks! well i wasn't able to upload the photo of the band which would've made a nice touch. Some guy deleted it. I reached out to him as to ask why and what is involved in have a photo, he never responded. It was a photo from a newspaper cut out that my dad has from 1969. It no longer has any copyright on it. Its from 50 years ago. Any advice on getting a photo up or do think i should just be happy with the current result? My dad has a couple private photo of the band that he took but they were in 1968, just before they got popular. Thegman81 (talk) 23:32, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Usually photos have to have been published before 1923 I think, to be out of copyright, although there's also something about 70 years after the death of the author, but not sure when that applies. Generally, as Wikipedias servers are in the US, they tend to go by US law. Its all a bit convoluted, but then copyright usually is. Have a look at WP:NUSC for some light reading...

An album cover in an article about the album is allowed under "fair use", but not in an article about the band. see [2] For fair use, you upload the pic locally (that is straight to Wikipedia, not Wikimedia Commons; Commons only accept totally copyright free stuff) in a lower pixel form. But then again..see WP:NFC#UUI"For some retired or disbanded groups, or retired individuals whose notability rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance, a new picture may not serve the same purpose as an image taken during their career, in which case the use would be acceptable." So possibly you could argue fair use for a band photo?

You could try asking here [3]...it looks like that's where the editors with an interest in copyright are. I'm not up on the finer points of fair use, and don't want to give you an incorrect answer.

If your dad himself took the photos, they should be fine-as long as he uploads them to Commons under his own account and identifying them as own work-that way he is personally giving permission/donating them to Wikipedia. However, if they were published anywhere else, or taken by anyone else things get tricky, as where they were published may be able to claim copyright. Once you release something to Commons, its legal for anyone to use it, even to print it out onto teatowels/collect into a book on bands of the 60's and publish it without asking you, etc, as long as they credit Wikipedia. Most professional photographers want much more control over their photos; even non professionals can object to someone potentially making money from their images, that's why Wikipedia is so strict on copyright. Curdle (talk) 22:09, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Wow, thank you so much for your assistance and advise! I will look into all of that!:)Thegman81 (talk) 23:45, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Noticeboard discussion

I just wanted to let you know that you are welcome to comment in this noticeboard discussion at ANI[[4]].Mountain157 (talk) 01:03, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Tartary

I can do it for you, but you'll need to read WP:BEFORE, and provide a really good deletion rationale ("no sources" is not good enough, as sources obviously exist). Let me know if you do want to carry on. Black Kite (talk) 08:35, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi Black Kite, thank you for you response and assistance in this matter. I had a read through WP:BEFORE page. My self and others have had a crack at improving the Tartary article by adding citations/references to make it more solid. They keep getting removed by Wikipedia administrator. To this date, the article simply has no citation/references. I don't believe there are sufficient sources to validate this article being posted on wikipedia. There was also sufficient time by which there was a 'wiki header' alerting: 'This article does not cite any sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (February 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)'. I believe it is time that the article is deleted/removed until someone can provide creditable sources for the existence of Tartary and what it was exactly. Thegman81 (talk) 00:41, 17 April 2019 (UTC)