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Nomination of Demographics of the Western Balkans for deletion
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Demographics of the Western Balkans is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Demographics of the Western Balkans until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
April 2020
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This is your only warning; if you vandalize Wikipedia again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:15, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Yugoslavia
editHi Ripas, thank you for your hard work! Could you make all the tables under Demographics paragraph collapsable? That way it could be cool to have such a long section (which is worthy of its own article). cheers, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 17:17, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi Sadko.Yes, I could, but unfortunately the tables have been deleted. I try to set statistics for Yugoslavia, but they always delete my tables.In these tables, I have published data for both the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but I do not know where I could put it. Can you tell me where to place these tables somewhere on Wikipedia? Maybe on the page Demographics of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but these tables also contain data for the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and it would not be good to separate them. It is better to have all the information in one place. Hvala na komentaru i pozdrav.
Ripas1997 (talk 20:20, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
May 2020
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Please do not remove maintenance templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Demographics of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, without resolving the problem that the template refers to, or giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your removal of this template does not appear constructive, and has been reverted. Thank you. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:27, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
OK,sorry. Ripas1997 (talk 23:30, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Category:Demographics of the Western Balkans has been nominated for discussion
edit Category:Demographics of the Western Balkans has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Place Clichy (talk) 14:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Can you explain why you keep reverting this? The colours are used frequently to indicate low and high numbers. Why is it in your eyes not applicable to the fertility rate in lower than 2,0 and still well applicable to the higher numbers above 2,0? In my eyes colour helps to read a table fast and see the mayor changes. Both blue and red are helpfull, done in good faith and are not vadalizing the article. Waiting for your reply.217.121.17.136 (talk) 11:00, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
There is no need for that. Only blue is enough to mark fertility rates above the replacement level. Everything else is fertility rates above the replacement level and it is well seen. Red is already present in the columns related to natural increase and natural increase (per 1000), and adding red in fertility rates below the replacement level would only create confusion. Ripas1997 (talk 16:38, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
I understand you find it too much red, still to my taste fertility rate impact below 2,1 is underestimated. At fertility rate of 1,8 in 2 generations or about 60 years 40% of the (native) population will be gone and at a fertility rate of 1,6 45 % of the population is gone in 1 generation. Some countries are even reporting below 1,5 and are heading to a steep decline. Fertility rate less than are thus an early indicator of what will happen in about 30 years into future. So red colour for fertility rate expresses this process earlier on.217.121.17.136 (talk) 17:41, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
It doesn't matter much. Data and trends related to TFR are clearly visible even without red, and the lowest TFR is marked in red, so it can be seen when a country had the lowest TFR. If everything were colored red, then it would not be possible to see when the TFR was lowest. There is no red color in the TFR data on any Wikipedia article related to the demographics of countries, so nothing will be missing. Ripas1997 (talk 02:31, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
Also here same question and you also respond why you deleted net migration rate and population growth. These columns give in my view additional information on how many people migrate approximate in a particular year and helps to understand the shift form emigration to immigration that is otherwise only can be seen indirectly by deducting population minus natural changes. 217.121.17.136 (talk) 11:11, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Sources should be cited and the numbers are not aligned. Ripas1997 (talk 16:39, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Deduction of population current year minus previous year is population growth and migration rate is population growth minus natural growth. Is just based on the current numbers presented in the table. So do no see it is not aligned. I can add the calculation in the note.217.121.17.136 (talk) 15:07, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Population data refer to the estimated MID-YEAR population (average population), not to the population at the beginning of the year. Data on external migration cannot be made on the basis of population data in the middle of the year. Some countries do not have data on external migration, so they do not include this data in population estimates, so there is no point in making data on external migration based on population estimates.Ripas1997 (talk 02:31, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
You could also have changed the title of the columns to estimated mid year migration and est. mid year population growth. Still valuable information on population movement even if it is a shift of 6 months, specific in such a long list of data. 217.121.17.136 (talk)
We cannot guess how many migrations there are, based only on population estimates that sometimes know to be inaccurate or incomplete. The data must be accurate, with the source cited. Ripas1997 (talk 10:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
It is not a guess, it is a calculation. The estimation part is only the moment of arrival with maximal deviation of 6 month. Migration is becoming the main demographic driver for developed countries in the last 30 years and seeing how it develops in time year on year per country is a nice way on why the most western demographics are moving not in line with the natural growth or decline or thus not following the fertility rate. 217.121.17.136 (talk) 11:00, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
The data must be accurate and the sources for that data must be stated. Sometimes errors in population estimates occur, so we cannot calculate migrations based on population estimates from these tables, because the data may be unreliable. And there is no need to add those tables, everyone can calculate it for themselves if they are interested. These are unnecessary data for wikipedia tables that only create redundant data. Ripas1997 (talk 13:29, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
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Negative numbers
editWhen you have a negative number you should use the minus sign (−) and not a hyphen (-); see MOS:MINUS "Do not use hyphens (-) or dashes (– or —)." That way the system knows that the minus sign is part of the number. In Demographics of Hungary you've changed lots of minus signs to hyphens which should be changed back. Nigej (talk) 16:24, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
OK, I understand. I didn't know that. But hyphen (-) is used in all articles related to demography... I did not change the signs. I found such a situation. The minus sign (−) is only in 2020, in other years writes (-). I think it's better to stand hyphen (-). When copying this demographic data in Excel, the minus sign (−) is not recognized in Excel, but hyphen (-) is. Ripas1997 (talk 19:05, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- This Old revision of Demographics of Hungary (7 April) did have minus signs but you have now incorrectly replaced them with hyphens. Nigej (talk) 17:56, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
I returned the minus sign (−). Ripas1997 (talk 21:47, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Demographics of Romania
editYour new numbers for the 2020 data cannot be right. Where did you get them? The pdf has different numbers, and also if there was 79,000 births up to June how could there have been 176 thousand for the entire year? Do you consider whether your edits make sense numerically before you make your changes?
These are the first preliminary data for 2020, which were published in August 2020. I set preliminary data for 2020 and preliminary data for 2021. The data published in the newer monthly bulletins for 2020 are later revised data.
Data for january-june 2020: https://insse.ro/cms/ro/content/mi%C8%99carea-natural%C4%83-popula%C8%9Biei-70
Thanks. But then we should reference this link as well.
This is the link for that month. Links for all months can be found in the link set in the current vital statistics, so that link can also be found there. There is no need to put links for each month separately, then we would have to change the links every month. In the posted link, the data for all months are in one place.
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Migration rates
editThank you for removing incorrect datas for migration rate and population change rates. I've noticed the issue on a lot of article on demographics, but I've only changed a couple of them for this matter. Givibidou (talk) 17:46, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
You're welcome. Timelapse1 (talk) 23:37, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
As you already stated yourself annual population estimates data may be unreliable. But I do think there is a need to add those tables and graphs, as migration is key impact to population growth and decline in most countries for the last 20 years certainly and are thus interesting data for wikipedia. In response to your critisme, I switched to % instead of absolute figures so less emphasis is given on the absolute number and more on the relative impact on change of population in a country over time. So incorrect numbers is not the correct description of the discussion, relevancy is. How do you see this? Kind Regards 217.121.17.136 (talk) 10:51, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello. The most important data are given in that table. I agree that the migration balance is important, but it is necessary to give accurate data on the migration balance, and not to derive those data based on population estimates that are not very accurate. Population estimates refer to the average population, ie the population in the middle of the year, so it is not possible to determine the size of the migration balance based on that. It is not possible to determine the migration balance in that year on the basis of data for the population in the middle of the year. In some countries, data for the population was mistakenly set at the beginning of the year, instead of the middle of the year, but again, that doesn't change things. Timelapse1 (talk) 12:14, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Demographics of Spain
editHello, I don't understand why you have deleted 2 whole columns from a table in Demographics of Spain. Those are figures that can be useful for some readers, and you give no clue about why they are unnecessary and inaccurate. I also see that you have made similar deletions for other countries, and that you have discussed them in this page, but still I don't see the need for such drastic measures. Please explain it. --Jotamar (talk) 23:06, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Hello. I will post the answer I gave in the conversation above this.
The most important data are given in that table. I agree that the migration balance is important, but it is necessary to give accurate data on the migration balance, and not to derive those data based on population estimates that are not very accurate. Population estimates refer to the average population, ie the population in the middle of the year, so it is not possible to determine the size of the migration balance based on that. It is not possible to determine the migration balance in that year on the basis of data for the population in the middle of the year. In some countries, data for the population was mistakenly set at the beginning of the year, instead of the middle of the year, but again, that doesn't change things. Timelapse1 (talk) 12:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, so the figures are not exact, however they're still valid as a rough approximation, especially since the alternative is "no data at all". Why not move the deleted columns to a new table and warn the reader that the figures are "based on an extrapolation" or something like that? --Jotamar (talk) 23:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps it is better to present data on the migration balance based on extrapolation as a graph, as presented in demographic articles for some countries TFR, population and natural increase. Timelapse1 (talk) 17:13, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Demographics of North Macedonia
editHello, I think that the table that you created for "Total population" is a little misleading. Up until 2021, the censuses are for "Resident population" only. In 2021 census they counted the "Resident population" (1 836 713) and additionally "Within the Census 2021, it was possible for Macedonian citizens living and residing abroad more than an year to self-register through a web application that was available on the Census website." 258 932 citizens used that option (24.55% declared themselves as Macedonians, 66.42% as Albanians, 4.78% as Turks, etc.). Note that the percentages of these 258 932 citizens are quite different than the ones from the resident population. That's how the amount rises to 2 095 645: [1] I think that we should rename "Enumerated population" to "Resident population", base the calculations on that amounts as they are comparable and mention in a note that in 2021 additional citizens were counted. What do you think about that? --StanProg (talk) 09:00, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
[2] Look at page 49. Total enumerated population is 2,097,319 and total resident population is 1,836,713. Earlier censuses included data abroad, and this census provided data on permanent residents and data on population abroad separately. This is similar to the Croatian census. [3] Timelapse1 (talk) 11:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- The enumerated population differs a little (due to the 1 674 "foreigners temporarily present in the Republic of North Macedonia for less than 12 months"), but that's not the issue. The earlier censuses included only the so called "Resident population" which includes people that are working abroad for up to 12 months prior to it's conduction. It did not included the ones that are more then 1 year abroad. You can see that at: [4], p. 14. The previous census results are comparable to the 1 836 713 from the 2021 one. In the 2021 one they decided to add the 1+ year "non-resident" ones, but as a separate number (according to [5] p. 49 they are 258 932). I'm not aware how Croatia did their census, but this is not related to the North Macedonian one. The "Resident population" participation in the census is obligatory, while the "non-resident" one is optional, that's why the enumerated population in the table is not comparable. An alternative is to keep the "Enumerated" column but to rename the "Permanent population" to "Resident population" and to add there the numbers from the previous census, which are actually used for the growth and density calculations. --StanProg (talk) 10:33, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
OK, you're right. I changed the table as you explained, only I deleted the column with the enumerated population, I think it is unnecessary. Thanks for the constructive remark. (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
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