User talk:Urashimataro/Archive08

DYK for Japanese Buddhist architecture

The DYK project (nominate) 00:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Japanese Buddhist architecture

Hi, Taro. I see you are struggling with the citation. I propose the following two citation methods for JAANUS.

1. Uses Harvnb template, in addition to the direct access.
2. direct access only, keeping Harvard citation style.

See below. Which do you prefer?

garan

daibutsuyou

References

• "JAANUS". Japanese Architecture and Art Net Users System.

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:44, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for the input. You are right, I am having trouble understanding that particular thing. I think I understand now. Tomorrow I will fix the citations. Thanks. - Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 13:22, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Komainu

Hello! Your submission of Komainu at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Arctic Night 13:45, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

TUSC token 401548826c9becf78046e73f322ae901

I am now proud owner of a TUSC account!

DYK for Komainu

— Rlevse • Talk • 12:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK nomination for Tō

Hello, your nomination of Tō at DYK was reviewed and comments provided. --NortyNort (Holla) 13:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Tō

— Rlevse • Talk • 18:02, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Keep up the good work! Perhaps you could write more articles about individual Buddnist temples in Japan? Dr. Blofeld 18:27, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for the message. I mean to, but first I need to finish writing the articles for the {{Buddhist temples in Japan}} template. Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 23:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

A-un

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Cultural Properties of Japan

Hi Urashimataro! Sorry for not cooperating on the Buddhism articles. Just wanted to let you know that bunkacho has published new (as of April 2010) pamphlets at the bottom of this site. bamse (talk) 10:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Bamse, and thanks for the info. Sorry for being so late, but these days I have barely the time to breathe, let alone contribute.

About your not collaborating with me, I would lie if I said I don't miss your input, but you know I believe it's good you do what you like best.

That's what I do. I have new material for the Shinbutsu shūgō article, and will start work on it as soon as I can. Take care.- Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 04:38, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Shintoism2

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If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hang on}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion, or "db", tag; if no such tag exists, then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hang-on tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Mhiji 22:22, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

"The existence of Shinto before the Meiji era is contested"

Please read WP:Fringe theories-there is no widespread acceptance of what you are adding.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 06:33, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

"I would rather be a bridge used by everyone than be a statue." -- Nobushige Hozumi

I wonder if you may want to consider the comment I have added at Talk:Kintetsubuffalo#Fringe theories --Tenmei (talk) 14:15, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Please consider the analysis and opinions I have posted here --Tenmei (talk) 17:48, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if it makes sense to speculate that you and Kintetsubuffalo are alike in wanting your contributions to our Wikipedia project to be like a kind of "bridge used by everyone"? --Tenmei (talk) 20:16, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 01:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

My best guess is that both you and Kintetsubuffalo are motivated by the desire to create something which is to be used by people you will never meet.

Do you not recognize that your investment of time, thought and effort is like bridge-building? You are a bridge-builder and Kintetsubuffalo is a bridge-builder, too.

My best guess is that your heart of hearts goal has always been to create a solid and reliable pathway for others to traverse as they come to know and appreciate the subject of any given article — like a bridge, good articles are solid and reliable.

In my judgment, you both are probably a little bit like Nobushige Hozumi; otherwise, you wouldn't invest time in the comparatively obscure subject of Shinto.

I imagine that your dispute pivots on different ideas about the usefulness of these "bridges" to a better and deeper understanding of Shinto.

Using different words: a bridge can be a beautiful work of art, but the true value of a bridge is mesured in the ways in which it is put to good use. Art can be beautiful, but its core value is not measured in terms of usefulness.

In the context of Wikipedia articles about Shinto, I see each article as a bridge; and you have good reason to be proud that your name is included in the edit histories of the articles to which you have contributed.

To me, this was transparent and easy metaphor.

Do you grasp my meaning, or do I need to try to explain again in other words. --Tenmei (talk) 02:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei,I didn't before, but I do now. That is indeed what I am to do. You understood this better than I did myself. Thanks a lot for explaining this to me.Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 02:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Fumihiko Sueki

I'm uncertain about your edit here. I understand that the Western convention is to identify people by their last name; but I also recognize that a great many English language sources are identifying Japanese historical characters by first name, e.g.,

• Hideyoshi did this
• Ieyasu did that

Is there a WP:MOS-J which addresses this naming issue? Compare Kenzaburō Ōe#Writing about his son, Hikari? --Tenmei (talk) 01:48, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Tenmei. I am not aware of any convention, but I find it unusual to call a person by their first name in a biography. It is true that English sources are identifying Japanese historical characters, but Sueki is a contemporary figure, and we do not call Jun'ichiro Koizumi by his first name in the article. I didn't mean to be blunt and I hope I didn't cause offense. --Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 02:42, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Koizumi was a good example. For now, my tentative plan is to use Ichimatsu Tanaka as a style model for modern biographies. This means selecting the last name as an alternative to a series of pronouns. This wasn't a question I considered actively until you noticed my mistake in Fumihiko Sueki. I guess my default mode is somewhere in the Heian period; and I trip over myself in writing about the people who live in our times. In a way, this is a funny kind of mistake to make. Please join me in smiling about it. --Tenmei (talk) 07:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry. I know how you work and I am delighted we can collaborate smoothly. Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Tokyō

Just discovered the tokyō article and had no idea that there was so much one could write about it. Great job, thanks! bamse (talk) 09:45, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Bamse, genki? I didn't know it was such an interesting subject either until I started researching. That's where the fun begins ... Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 03:59, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi! Just wanted to let you know that I started List of Important Intangible Folk Cultural Properties. It is still a bit rough, but will hopefully improve over time. bamse (talk) 20:54, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

WP Japan in the Signpost

"WikiProject Report" would like to focus on WikiProject Japan for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Other editors will also have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 04:11, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost article on WP Japan is scheduled to run this Monday. In light of the recent earthquake, is there anything else you'd like to request from our readers? If so, feel free to add the new information to the "anything else" section of the interview. -Mabeenot (talk) 17:45, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Signpost article

The WikiProject Japan Signpost article scheduled for this week was postponed in light of the earthquake, tsunami, and ongoing nuclear crisis. We would like to publish the interview within the next couple weeks with updated information that takes into account the events in Japan. Please take an opportunity to return to the interview page to answer some additional questions located at the bottom of the page. This is also an opportunity to revise any previous answers if you feel the need. We hope to bring your story to a wider audience. Thanks again for your participation. -Mabeenot (talk) 03:38, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Credo

Hi! Not sure whether you are interested or whether it is useful as a reference source for you, but you might want to sign up at WP:CREDO. bamse (talk) 11:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC) Done. Thanks. Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 11:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Nio

I don't know what to make of the A-un guardian figures at Todai-ji. It is clear that

• Ungyo is traditionally represented as having a facial expression with a closed mouth , and
• Agyo is conventionally represented with an open mouthed expression

See images of Todaiji Nandaimon (東大寺南大門) here.

Can you help me grasp the nuance? Was I mistaken in considering Bishamonten and Komukuten as alternate Nio? Both have lips which are pressed together in frowns, but the meaning seems plain.

As you may have noticed, I restored the sentence you deleted because the pair are explicitly mentioned in the JAANUS articles about "Niou" (仁王) and "A un" (阿吽). For me, this remains a minor mystery. --Tenmei (talk) 16:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Tenmei. Genki? As soon as I have time I will fix the hitch to the satisfaction of both of us. I thought the article A-un was clear, but I guess not. A fox with an open mouth is also an Agyo". All "agyo" means is "a shape". Take care --Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 18:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Quote

Hi, Tenmei. This is what the JAANUS article says.

At the entrance to a Shinto shrine, there are often two lion-dog shrine guardians *komainu 狛犬, one with mouth open and the other with mouth closed. *Niou 仁王 (two kings) guardian figures are found at either side of a Buddhist temple gate, in the same poses. 'A' and 'un' represent the beginning and the end of all things, or inhalation and exhalation, respectively. The expression with the mouth open is known as *agyou 阿形 and that with mouth closed as ungyou 吽形. Examples include the stucco Niou from 711 guarding the central gate *Chuumon 中門 of Houryuuji 法隆寺 in Nara.

It seems clear to me that this passage fully supports my interpretation (note agyo and ungyo in the lower case), but I admit that it's a minority view. It makes so much sense however that I am sure it's correct. Just see the meaning of the two names: why should the term apply ONLY to the Nio, who by the way already have a name? In their case, Agyo and Ungyo can be only nicknames. Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 07:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

IMO, you are always correct. This is my default POV as a general rule. At "A un" (阿吽), click on the hyperlink for "Niou" (仁王). Perhaps you might be persuaded to reconsider or refine your opinion in light of the images? Please note

• in the open-mouthed agyo (阿形) position, we can make out the shape of mouth saying a (あ)
• in the closed-mouthed ungyo (吽形) position, we recognize the shape of mouth saying

I wonder, did you notice that the New York Times citation in this section of Todai-ji has been expanded to include a brief a text excerpt? --Tenmei (talk) 20:23, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Tenmei. I did notice the quote from the NYT. Yesterday at JAANUS I found these definitions.

Agyou:

A statue of a figure with its mouth open. Usually seen on one of a pair of guardian kings *Niou 仁王, or guardian lion figures, set at temple and shrine entrances.

Komainu:

In the early Heian period (9c) the two statues were clearly distinguished: the figure on the left, called shishi 獅子 (lion), resembled a lion with its mouth open *agyou 阿形; the figure on the right, called komainu 狛犬 (Korean dog), resembled a dog with its mouth closed ungyou 吽形.

At this point it's clear how things stand as far as Jaanus is concerned, and I remain convinced the site is correct. Also, if you search Google for Agyo Komainu or Ungyo Komainu in Japanese, you find plenty of such quotations. However, it's also clear that it's JAANUS against a thousand different English sources, some relatively authoritative (the NYT is not, I am afraid). So we need confirmation from a TRULY autoritative source. It's not so much that I need to convince you, as that WE need to discover without the shadow of a doubt how things stand. I tend to distrust sources in English, but at the moment I am not in Japan. Were I there, I would go to the public library and consult the Nihon Daijiten. As things are now, I will have to wait until I am back. Let's leave things as they are, for the time being. Dooes this sound fair to you? It goes without saying that this is just a gentlemanly discussion among friends who respect and trust each other.Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 08:30, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

This is a trivial matter -- no cause for worry. The quibble is perhaps categorized as a discussion about pondering what is better or best. This exchange began over a question about one sentence only in Todai-ji. At some point in the future, perhaps the process of collaborative editing in some other article will re-animate our focus on this small topic. --Tenmei (talk) 12:54, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Visiting kami

Hi! Do you know whether marebito is the same as Raihōshin (来訪神)? If not, should there be an article on Raihōshin (or is the topic covered by some other article)? bamse (talk) 21:03, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Bamse. I am sure you checked the Japanese article ja:まれびと, which mentions Raihoshin in a funny way (来訪神のまれびとは神を迎える祭などの際に、立てられた柱状の物体（髯籠・山車など）の依り代に降臨するとされた。). I need a couple of days to think it over. --Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 18:46, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, I hadn't checked the Japanese article. EoS Marebito and EoS Raihoshin sound very similar to me as a non-expert, with the only difference I can see being: "kami" vs. "spiritual entity". BTW, I stumbled upon that term in the course of working on this list. I am thinking of adding an extra column describing the type of festival: "visiting kami"/"harvest"/..., but not sure yet whether that would be a good idea. bamse (talk) 19:45, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree, they do sound like the same thing, and that would explain the quote from Japanese Wikipedia. About the extra column, why are you not sure yet whether that would be a good idea? Sounds good to me.Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 06:55, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

So you think that I could link the Amahage of Yuza to marebito? As for the extra column, I will wait until the table is complete (30 entries) to see whether it makes sense, i.e. whether the number of categories ("visiting kami"/"harvest"/...) is sufficiently small. bamse (talk) 10:16, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Certainly sounds like it. I would go ahead.Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 10:22, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. bamse (talk) 17:48, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Cultural Properties of Japan 2

Hi! Are you still interested in CP? Maculosae tegmine lyncis is very interested in CP and already did quite some good contributions to some articles. Maybe we could join our forces somehow and have a common place to discuss any issues on CP. What do you think? In this discussion, I was just wondering whether Living National Treasures are "Cultural Properties" and whether they should appear in the Template:Cultural Properties of Japan or not? Would appreciate your input. bamse (talk) 21:54, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Left feedback. About collaborating, I am interested, but I don't have much time (family problems). I will give my input, though.Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 07:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Of course feel free to enter any of the discussions on our talk pages or elsewhere, undo incorrect edits, etc. bamse (talk) 19:20, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

If only in this Ryūgū-jō time really did stand still… I've learned a lot from your articles, thanks, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 21:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi, MTL, and thanks for the link. For the life of me, can't remember ever having been there, but if they say so ... :-). Seriously, now, hajimemashite, and may we collaborate in the near future. Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 08:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Hello again, Bamse was asking, and it would be relevant for The Dog Pillow, why there are so many 'dog' parodies of classic literary works (bit like doggerel). Apparently you might know something about the cultural value of the Japanese canine... Thanks! Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 02:09, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Alas, I do not. Sorry for not being of help. Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 06:15, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Thought that you might have read something in the course of working on Komainu. bamse (talk) 08:42, 19 May 2011 (UTC)