User talk:Usernamekiran/Eladio del Valle

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Latest comment: 7 years ago13 comments3 people in discussion

@Ad Orientem and Location: Hi,
I have been working on this since ages (a previous draft was deleted). But because of natural/general mood swings and forgetfulness, I could never finish it. Both of you have knowledge of this field, and both of you create content.

Do you think Valle deserves an article on wikipedia? If yes, would you please help in it? Thanks a lot for consideration. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

Members of national parliaments or legislatures are usually treated as presumptively notable, so there is that. But as with all things on Wikipedia it comes down to reliable source coverage. I'd not introduce any conspiracy related stuff unless it is cited to, or at least referenced in one or more reliable (non-fringe) independent secondary sources. Do you have sufficient RS sources to write a quality article about the man? None of the sources cited in the draft look RS compliant to me. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Ad Orientem: that's where the problem lies. I don't know how to define reliable, and fringe source. That's why I didn't work on/publish this article like I did with QKENCHANT, and John J. Hicks.

But there are a lot of discussions regarding Valle as Jim Garrison wanted to interview him during trial of Clay Shaw, and becuase of the same reason he was mentioned in Kevin Costner's JFK film.

There are some websites that state he was actually murdered almost at the same time as of David Ferrie, and some other websites state it was just a rumour/prank by Valle's journalist friend.

I want to stick to truth/facts and nothing else. I mean, I do not want to create nor take part in hoaxes, rumours, and tinfoil hat theories. And yes, I realised they were definitely not "reliable sources" that's why I haven't published the article yet, even though he was politically notable person as per wikipedia standards. —usernamekiran (talk) 20:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

I completely agree with Ad Orientem. If you are looking at the conspiracy angle, I don't see any coverage in what Wikipedia considers to be reliable secondary sources. He may appear on page 805 of Bugliosi (per what I see on GoogleBooks), but I really doubt that there is enough there on which an article could be created. Your best bet is to shoehorn mention of him in some existing article IF there is reliable secondary source coverage of him. Regarding the political angle, there could be something there in non-English sources but I can't help you there. -Location (talk) 20:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) Well let's start with Garrison. He's a very controversial figure that even most conspiracy theorists tend to avoid citing. As for Oliver Stone's movie, it was brilliantly directed, well acted and very entertaining. But as history, it's pure 100% solid gold bull $---. I would read WP:RS to get an idea for what we look for in reliable sources. If you want a reliable source for Kennedy Assassination material I would take a look at Vincent Bugliosi's book Reclaiming History. Finally I would be careful about writing a biography of someone with a view to making it about the Kennedy Assassination, especially someone whose alleged connection is minimal. If this is all you can come up with for an article I doubt it would survive AfD. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) @Location and Ad Orientem: yes, I agree with you on that one Location. I mean, I already tried to search a lot for his connection with the assassination, and his friendship with Ferrie. But it doesnt seem to exist. There are a lot of contradictions too. I am not even sure about his "torture and murder by spilitting open his skull with axe". I think Bugliosi made just a passing reference to him. I need to find a softcopy of that again lol.

But cant we add content to the article explicitly describing the confusion, and rumours surrounding Valle? I mean, even if they were blatant hoaxes/rumours, they made it to newspapers, and Garrison did try to interview him. Plus he was an MP.

Thanks a lot for the WP:RS suggestion, and other suggestions; but i could never read it completely in thr past

i will try reading it agian though. And no, i was not citing the film as a reference lol. I meant/I mentioned it because i think the film is one of the big reasons why there are discussions regarding Valle on internet. I apologise for the confusion. —usernamekiran (talk) 20:47, 23 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Location and Ad Orientem: hi, I changed the content of the article completely. Do you guys think it is encyclopaedic now? Also are these sources reliable?

I'm ambivalent about Find a Grave, but as long as the only thing being cited is the actual burial spot it might work. The other two are not RS sources.

The above comment is mine. I forgot to sign. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

I have seen many errors in Find a Grave. I do not consider it to be reliable, but sometimes I see things that point me in the direction of reliable sources.. Last I recall, various discussions at WP:RSN pointed in the direction of it not being reliable. DiEugenio, working with the premise that there was a JFK conspiracy, would not be considered a reliable source. The third source is self-published and therefore would not be considered reliable. -Location (talk) 19:28, 24 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Location and Ad Orientem: thanks for the input guys.

But now the article, in its entirety, states:

Eladio del Valle was a Cuban congressman, and a senator during the reign of Fulgencio Batista. He went into exile when Fidel Castro came in power in January 1959.
During his investigation into the assassination of John F. Kennedy case, Jim Garrison wanted to interview Eladio del Valle to obtain information against Clay Shaw. However, he was unable to find him.

I couldnt find reliable sources, would you please do that? —usernamekiran (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

I don't think you are going to find enough reliable sources to build an article about this guy. This one may have a brief mention but I cannot access it: https://newspaperarchive.com/independence-examiner-may-24-1968-p-12/. -Location (talk) 21:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

Sadly I concur with Location. I just scanned several dozen pages of a Google search and I pretty much came up empty. Almost every discussion of the man that I found in English comes from patently non-RS sources. Fringe might be a better descriptor for most of them. Sometimes in life you are just not going to hit the ball and this looks like one of those moments. If I were asked to characterize this person from a Wikipedia standpoint, I'd say he is a borderline notable person (solely by virtue of his political career) who has gained some peripheral attention in various fringe conspiracy theories. But those theories, and particularly his role in them, have gained virtually no discussion in independent reliable sources. Absent in depth independent reliable source coverage the subject of your article appears to fail WP:GNG and WP:BASIC. As unpleasant as it may be for you, I think it's probably time to pull the plug on this. The only possible recourse, and I think it's a long shot, is to look around for Spanish language sources. Unfortunately my Spanish is execrable and I would not be of much help. But I will tell you that the few I looked at all looked pretty fringey to me. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Location and Ad Orientem: yeah. I think it is time to give up. Thanks for the help though.

And I apologise for bothering you two so much with this. Thanks again. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

No worries. That's what we are here for. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

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