WikiHelper2134

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Barnstar for your edits to Fusion power

		The E=mc² Barnstar
		I came back to Fusion Power a few months after working on it myself to find some editor had completely reorganized and reworked this topic, adding a load of historical and other information, and giving it a whole new look that was way beyond that which it had before. I think it was you, and I see you've done a lot of work on other fusion-related topics too. I was very impressed - well done! Looking forward to seeing it improve further still! FT2 (Talk | email) 16:58, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes It was me. I spent a couple of days re-working the topic. I really hope that it is unbiased. The main thing was reorganizing the history section by year - not by topic or theme. That way, it become accessible for other editors to add material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.0.90.170 (talk) 03:44, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Fusion Power

Why did you remove the word thermonuclear from the tokamak section of Fusion Power? Tokamaks contain a plasma at thermal equilibrium so it has a meaningful temperature and it relies on this temperature to achieve fusion so the word thermonuclear seems entirely appropriate. Devices like the Farnsworth_fusor achieve fusion by giving nuclei high velocities by non thermal mechanisms so cannot be described as thermonuclear. I might be rusty - it has been a while but I am curious about why you think thermonuclear is incorrect. Mtpaley (talk) 23:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I am sure it was to make it more readable. It was clearly important to you. Change it back.

Nomination of Phoenix Nuclear Labs for deletion

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Lets hash this out

This seems like as good a place as any. You said on your fusion page:

"Lawson Criterion and the triple product. The two issues should be separated, John Lawson wrote about the energy balance not a triple product."

The original paper contains a basic discussion of what we would now call the triple product in equation 4 and the following paragraph. His statement about the difficulty of fusion specifically references it. Although he uses a different R, the totality of the statement "a useful reactor T myst exceed 10^8 degrees and nt must exceed 10^16" is, IMHO, a description of the triple product.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are two concepts here, the energy balance and the triple product. My concern is the statement that they can be separated, and that Lawson didn't write about it.

So to abuse experimenter effect a bit, let's see what the greater world says about all this:

• this page at EUROfusion says "The genesis of Lawson’s Criteria is simple enough – he calculated the requirements for more energy to be created than is put in, and came up with a dependence on three quantities: temperature (T), density (n) and confinement time (τ). With only small evolution thanks to some subtle changes of definition, this is basically the same figure of merit used by today’s fusion scientists – the triple product, nτT."
• this definition from the same site states "Lawson’s Criteria specified a minimum value for the product of three parameters, plasma density (n), confinement time (τ) and temperature (T)."
• HyperPhysics defines the criterion in terms of triple product.
• this presentation from Lehigh does the same.
• as does Rochester.
• the CEA combines the two concepts,
• although this one doesn't,
• but then this one does.

While hardly rigourous, overall it would seem that "the field" considers the two concepts to be flip sides of the same coin. While I would agree that the current article on the criterion is not all that it can be, I would argue against separating these two concepts too firmly.

Maury Markowitz (talk) 15:03, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I apologize it took me several months to see your message. I agree with your statement that most fusion researchers see the Lawson Criteria as setting a minimum density, temperature and time. The tokamak and ICF crowd uses this as a way to excuse lots of fusion approaches - and justify their funding, so this is a really important concept.

The original paper did start with an energy balance - which many people are unaware of - and yes it moved to a triple product. This has become a "minimum" triple product in the past 60 years. But, I think the balance is a more important concept, because it connects lots of problems seen in modern fusion research: plasma loss by conduction, energy lost by radiation, device efficiency and fusion rates. But - admittedly - that is just a opinion. In my opinion, using the energy balance is a much more comprehensive way to measure fusion approaches, then the triple product.

I cannot argue this position fully because I do not have enough information. For example, I do not fully understand the steps to take this energy balance to a minimum triple product. I suspect that there are assumptions built into those steps (for example assuming that you can only capture a maximum % of the energy from a fusion reactor). I also would love to see the measurements connecting radiation loss to confinement, plasma composition and temperature - which would be critical for finding a minimum set of conditions. I have some documents I want to read which I hope can explain this better:

1. Wessons' tokamak textbook walks the reader through the steps

2. Irvin Lindemuths' 2009 paper: "The fundamental parameter space of controlled thermonuclear fusion" American Journal of Physics 77, 407 (2009); doi: 10.1119/1.3096646 By Irvin R. Lindemuth and Richard E. Siemon

3. Re-checking Lawson's original paper

I called up Dr. Lindemuth, who spent a long time thinking about this and in his opinion the triple product had been oversold. He told me: "it is not clear that: reaching minimum triple is a guarantee that a concept will work and that not reaching a minimum triple will guarantee that a concept will fail".

But, I need some time to research this idea some more. I would also add that if you surveyed a group of fusion graduate students, or physics students they would tell you that lawson means a minimum triple, without knowing why. WikiHelper2134 (talk) 22:52, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

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RESPONSE

Hi, I have the permission from Dr. Peter Bagryansky who works on the Gas Dynamic Trap:

we agree to provide written consent for the use of drawings and photographs. Please tell me how to do it. Attached please find a couple of pictures more. You can use them if you see fit. With kind regards Peter Bagryansky

I will adjust the reference and forward on the info. WikiHelper2134 (talk) 14:21, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

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