User talk:Zzzplayer/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Archive 1

A bowl of strawberries for you!

Some strawberries for you :) I was doing nothing but was just trying to convey my thoughts. Despite of me being an editor for long, I can be wrong and my views may not be like others think. We may have difference of opinion and I may have annoyed you. It was never my intention to do so so my apologies if I caused you trouble. Hope you'll go a long way on the community and all the best! TheSpecialUser TSU 10:32, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

PlayStation 4: x86 vs RISC

I do like your most recent edit better than the first, since x86-64 is still mentioned, but there are still issues. When you get a chance, read these articles:

• RedGamingTech
• Forbes

The focus here should be on the instruction set architecture. Your comment that it's possible to design a Cell processor with the x86-64 architecture further highlights the point I'm trying to make. It wasn't the Cell's overall design that made it obsolete. It was its reliance on one specific component, the RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computing) CPU architecture specifically called Power or PowerPC in the Cell. RISC greatly contrasts with x86, as the articles explain, and therefore should be the focus of this statement in the article's lead. There's really no reason to mention AMD's APU. If Sony had gone with an Intel x86-64 processor, the difference would have still been the same. --GoneIn60 (talk) 18:28, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

The articles you posted did mentioned x86-64 being a major factor, which I agree, the x86-64 eco system (the dev tools and compilers) are far more mature than PowerPC for the last decade. I like x86-64 and I've to say x86-64 is the best among the four potential candidates (x86-64, MIPS, ARM, PowerPC).

However, the reason to choose x86-64 is not because CISC vs RISC, but because of the specfic processor architecture implementation.

The Forbes article you cited are just his own thoughts and what likely happened and is not based on any direct source (and Forbes is a bad source for hardware analysis and information). Though I agree with his reasoning that x86-64 being the best of the four other candidates.

I think based on your previous comments, you're confusing between "instruction set" and "processor architecture"; these two are seperate things.

Here is a direct quote from Dominic Mallinson (VP, U.S. Research and Development, Sony Computer Entertainment America) at AMD Developer Summit (APU13):

i) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5tBolPan8U

"We made our decision based around what the developer needs and what the gamer wants so we chose a best in class APU" (and the first item they listed in the graph is a "supercharged PC like architecture". The second being x86 CPU and the third is an enhanced PC GPU).

ii) http://www.slideshare.net/DevCentralAMD/keynote-dominic-mallinson

In the slides, it mentioned "...Cost and complexity rose sharply". Is the PowerPC instruction set that's costy and comlex? NO. It's the Cell processor and the processor R&D that went into making the Cell that's costing Sony. By basing the PS4 processor on an already made APU, Sony gets everythings it wants and saves a ton of processor hardware R&D.

This fact is further evident from the other two consoles of the last generation, Xbox 360 and Wii. Both consoles used a processor based on the PowerPC instruction set, but you barely hear as much criticism about development difficulty of these two compared to the Cell.

The old Apple Macs processor uses PowerPC too, you don't hear such criticism either.

You also mentioned "If Sony had gone with an Intel x86-64 processor, the difference would have still been the same". I disagree. It would not because Intel has no mature integrated graphic solution and their graphics drivers typically has more issues compared to either Nvidia or AMD. If Sony would have gone with Intel, which they won't, then they would definitly need a seperate discrete graphics chip solution. Essential two seperete chips would be needed, which would make the console cost more. That's the technical aspect. For the economic aspect, it's even a bigger no. Game consoles are low margin business, Intel have no interest for the type of margin that Sony is willing to pay.

The original sentecne did not state "Moving away from complicated PowerPC instruction set...", it states "Moving away from complicated Cell processor..." because what bugs game developers the MOST is not the PowerPC instruction set, but the Cell processor itself (a specific ASIC implementation of PowerPC instruction set) which features custom SPE cores that are powerful, but requires additional custom coding work in order to unlock the performance.

It was processor architecture implementation, the Cell processor, with custom specialized cores that's costing BOTH Sony and game developers from the last generation. --Zzzplayer (talk) 07:47, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree with many of the points you've made, but regarding one item, I do. x86 and other instruction sets are a type of architecture. Have you ever heard of the term ISA? It stands for Instruction Set Architecture. In this old article from 2002, Ars Technica uses the term frequently to discuss x86 and x86-64. Also taken straight from Microsoft:

"The Intel x86 processor uses complex instruction set computer (CISC) architecture, which means there is a modest number of special-purpose registers instead of large quantities of general-purpose registers."

While I do appreciate getting into all the aspects of why Sony went with AMD's APU (e.g. lower cost, SoC, etc.), the sentence in the lead paragraph specifically focuses on what made it easier for developers. Developers aren't concerned about Sony's bottom line. They want a platform that is easy to code for. The Cell relied on RISC, as did the Xbox 360, but the difference was that the 360 had a tri-core processor capable of 6 simultaneous threads as opposed the Cell's limited 2 threads. To make up for it, the Cell employed SPE's that developers could farm some of the workload to, but of course, this added a lot more code. Hence the reason you always heard about the PS3 being more difficult to program for, not the 360.

An x86 CPU uses CISC, which has "branch prediction" among other advantages, making it the most defining difference between the Cell and the Jaguar. You can talk about the processor's architecture all day – unified memory, SoC, and GPGPU – but what really makes it easier to program for is the x86-64 instruction set architecture. Non-technical readers understand CPU more than APU. It's a widely recognized term. We should keep it simple in the lead and keep the more technical stuff in the body of the article. --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:16, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

First of all, I don't disagree x86-64 instruction set architecture being a major reason, but to write changing from the Cell architecture to the x86-64 instruction set, as the other guy did originally is awkward because the Cell microprocessor itself is not an instruction set, it's a processor microarchitecture. You can't compile your high level C/C++ code to Cell instruction sets, but to PowerPC. There is no Cell compiler, there is only PowerPC compiler. You don't move "processor microarchitecture" to an "instruction set architecture". Hence we have a revised version.

The comparison between the PS3 and Xbox360 processor just shows it's not sufficient to only say "instruction set architecture" because both processors utilize the PowerPC instruction set architecture, but depending on how the designers implement the processor microarchitecture, you can get very different results in terms of easy of programmability.

As for APU not a recognized term for the public, I disagree. The first part of the sentence uses "Cell architecture". So what is "Cell architecture" to most people? are people more familiar with "Cell architecture" than with APU? I doubt. If one can mention "Cell architecture", then another can mention "APU". The APUs to this day, have gone on to sold more than 100 Mil units since its introduction in 2011, that's more units than the PS3.--Zzzplayer (talk) 04:38, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

August 2015

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Suggested topic area

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Welcome! You are receiving this message because we noticed that you made your first edit related to our project WikiProject Video games. We are a group of editors working on improving articles in the scope of this project, and we need your help to meet the project goals. Please come over to our project page to take a look!

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See also section

Please don't include links which are already in the article. See MOS:NOTSEEALSO. - David Biddulph (talk) 11:07, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks; didn't realize. - Zzzplayer (talk) 11:16, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

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