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Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 November 25

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November 25

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Category:LGBT murderers

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 16:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As with Category:LGBT criminals, this is a grouping not supported by the proposed consensus on race/gender/sexuality categorization -- which is that such groupings should only be permitted if they constitute a unique and distinctive cultural context about which an encyclopedia article could itself be written. It would be impossible to write an article about gay murderers as a distinct phenomenon from straight ones, so accordingly I'm proposing delete in this case. Bearcat 19:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I kind of resent that. I voted for delete on the other one and I'm not any kind of gay rights activist. My reasons there were certainly not gay rights activism as should've been clear. In fact I pretty much stated I voted for deletion on the grounds I'd vote to delete a Category:Promiscuous criminals or Category:Polygamous criminals. I don't see how comparing the three is what an activist would do. If you want positive LGBT categories deleted put them up and I might go for that. (Although I do believe in fairness. If their LGBT status really is related to them fitting a positive category I might vote abstain or keep. I'm going case by case here.)--T. Anthony 07:59, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I can't respond to your impeccable logic CalJW. For those looking for other groups that may have gotten too uppity, suggest Category:Disabled criminals, Category:Environmentalist criminals, or why not kill two birds with one stone via Category:LGBT Jew criminals see List of LGBT Jews for ideas. Just trying to be helpful. -- JJay 22:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: As I've already stated, the tentative consensus in the race/gender/sexuality discussion is that such a category should only be implemented if that combination constitutes a unique and distinctive cultural context about which an encyclopedia article could itself be written. If you want this category to be kept, you therefore need to prove that one could somehow write an encyclopedic article on gay murderers as an identifiably distinct phenomenon from non-gay ones. The onus is not on me to prove that such an article could not be written; it's on you to prove that it could. And it's not about positive vs. negative groupings; there are positive LGBT groupings that would be invalid under this criterion and negative ones that would be permissible. The defining criterion is whether one can actually write an encyclopedic article about the topic. Bearcat 23:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a matter of unease with classifying murderers. It's more that this is maybe not the best way to do it. Categories involving mass-murderers, serial-murderers, rapist-murderers, kidnapping-murderers, murderers by nation, or even murders by non-murdering occupation could maybe be valid. This is more like a random cross section that I don't think improves efforts to categorize. If this were Category:Evangelical Christian murderers I'd be just as strongly against that.--T. Anthony 13:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Added to that most of the murderers in this category are already in a subcategory of murderers.--T. Anthony 06:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wonder Woman supporting characters

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was merge as nominated --Kbdank71 16:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One article. Upmerge and delete. - SoM 19:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Bohemian Grove attendees

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 16:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Groups people based on alleged attendance at San Francisco club retreat. Can't find a similar category and associated bios do not seem to mention club. Do we really want to set up categories based on attendance at Political or social clubs? What's next? Category:Communist Party meeting attendees, Category:Ravenite social club attendees, Category:GLAAD weekend retreat attendees -- JJay 19:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • KEEP IT. Attendance at Bohemian Grove is very informative to researchers about historic public figures and their influence over public affairs of their time and afterwards. Historically, many key decisions affecting global business and politics appear to have been made by attendees at Bohemian Grove, or through contacts made possible there. For instance, at minimum Presidents Eizenhower, Nixon, and Reagan, attended Bohemian Grove in the months prior to launching their successful campaigns for President. Innumerable other examples in other fields exist. The problem then seems that not enough is known about this crucial fact that this category makes easier to know.

There is also controversy about alleged activities inside Bohemian Grove, including public protests, such as it's ban on women and allegations of occult ceremonies. Since these congregations involve attendance by important public figures, and all public figures should be accountable for their actions, figures including both Presidents Bush, other former Presidents, Cabinet Officers, and recently the current Governor of California, etc., this category serves an important purpose of showing in one place who attends these functions.

The above objector to this category states that these names of attendees are "alleged" as if questioning their validity. If he/she wishes to object to any specific names, that is one thing, and if based on objective facts, welcome, but he/she uses that logic to imply that the whole category should not exist. On that basis very few categories in Wikipedia could exist!

The entries in this category are valid based on documentation from past newspaper articles, published interviews, doctoral thesis', and other research. If there was a way to cite sources for category inclusion, I was not aware of it, but would be happy to conform these entries to such format. If such a format exists, please notify me of it and the link. Please KEEP "Category:Bohemian Grove attendees", leave it alone! Thank you. Nfgii 20:38, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I’m sure Presidents Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan did many things before launching their campaigns. They may have visited Bohemian Grove. Their thinking may have changed as a result of these visits. They may need to be held accountable for their visits. In fact, it just occurred to me, they or other historic public figures may have become robots controlled by the Bohemian Club, or even have been replaced by identical clones created by the Bohemian Club. They may now be owned by the Bohemian Club. This could have easily occurred at Bohemian Grove while other attendees were distracted by human sacrifice rituals or servicing from Gay porn stars, activities discussed in our Wiki article. Think about it. Every leading institution in the USA may now be run by Bohemian Club robots or clones, and the influence may be spreading internationally. Thankfully women are excluded from Bohemian Grove, possibly because they might object to the snuff films being made, but who knows, that could change, meaning Bohemian Club indoctrination could start at birth. As most of the Grateful Dead were members, maybe Jerry's death was faked, because he knew too much. These crucial facts are not widely known among the public. I welcome a discussion of this, but do not try to use logic to imply that these ideas should not exist. Hm, maybe I should withdraw the nom... -- JJay 00:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment It says in the article The club's membership includes many artists, particularly musicians I can't see many, actually, any of those in this category, why? Arniep 01:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per JJay's comments. Also, the comment from Nfgii sounds like this category exists to satisfy conspiracy theorists. OCNative 07:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Cover it in an article. Honbicot 13:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: KEEP IT. (repeating my above vote) User OCNative implies Wikipedia is not for everybody and IS for censorship when he states: "the comment from Nfgii sounds like this category exists to satisfy conspiracy theorists" Apparently, whatever simple factual information (such as this category in question, of simply who attended some event and when) constitutes "conspiracy theories" to him and should be banned!!! OK, is that how it works in Wikipedia, that to get something I don't like banned from it, all I have to do is call it a "conspiracy theory"???? Good little trick, I'll have to remember it.

Seriously, if users like Honbicot and JJay object to an out of the way and unobstrusive category as this being in place and would prefer this same information be inside a separate article as user Honbicot suggests, or within the Bohemian Grove article itself, this is fine with me too. However, this FACTUAL CONTENT that these users seem to object to would then really be more "in your face" in these articles, and in time make the whole articles unnecessarily large. But as it is, it is viewable only by those who specifically look for it because they think its relevant.

User JJay makes what to me appear sarcastic comments about how many people MIGHT interpret the names in this category. He MIGHT be right, or MIGHT not be. My point is, let people INTERPRET FACTUAL DATA on their own. It's not your job, or my job, to do it for them. Nfgii 14:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

    • Above comment edited to reflect the fact that user has already voted above. Nfgii, you get one vote. You can post further comments if you wish, but you are not permitted to vote a second or third or fourth time. 06:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Advertising agency to Category:Advertising agencies

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Should be pluralised in line with naming conventions. Carina22 11:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Rivers of the United States

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Wikipedians in Bucks to Category:Wikipedians in Buckinghamshire

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The result of the debate was Rename. Martin 23:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All the other English "Wikipedians by county" categories use full county names. I wondered why i couldnt' find the Buckinghamshire one... this was why - the one exception to the pattern. Grutness...wha? 11:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Christian scientists to Category:Christians in science

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The result of the debate was Rename. Martin 23:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

See notes on Category:Christian scientists page. Rnt20 10:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Chinese aircraft carriers to Category:Aircraft carriers of China

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Per previous CfD, replace use of country adjective with noun.Joshbaumgartner 06:19, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Sounds better as it is. Carina22 10:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, "sounding better" is POV, and consistency is more important. Radiant_>|< 14:36, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or rename as category:aircraft carriers of the People's Republic of China. The PRC has never, until this moment, had any serving aircraft carrier in its military. Varyag may be being used for military purpose (in a dry dock), while Minsk is part of a theme park. — Instantnood 16:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: That's why I proposed the China category as opposed to a PLAN or even PRC category. The broader category makes it unnecessary to delve into the intricacies of the ownership and operational histories of the Minsk and Varyag, which haven't always been clear or stable. Readers can read the articles to learn the detailed stories. Joshbaumgartner 17:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Unlike submarines, there's little use of aircraft carriers functioning as such outside of military. Both Varyag and Minsk are not being used as aircraft carriers, and Varyag has never been used as such. That was why I suggested to delete the category. If the category is to be kept, it'd better be renamed to avoid possible ambiguity, and to go in line with naming conventions. — Instantnood 21:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The so called convention is wrong. I wish I hadn't started this process. CalJW 21:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete China has no aircraft carriers. It has a former aircraft carrier parked in a theme park and rusting hull in a dock. What, if I write up some articles about the history of the original boats in Submarine Voyage can I create Category:Submarines of Disneyland as a sub-cat of Category:Navy of California? If I browse to a sub-cat of the Chinese military, I expect to find military ships. Not theme park rides or a rusting hull that were military ships for other countries who eventually were retired in China. There are mothballed ships in the US that came from the Eastern Bloc too, there was a former Soviet sub docked in Elliot Bay for several years, but even if they had Wikipedia articles they wouldn't belong to a military of the US category. SchmuckyTheCat 00:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • COMMENT I see no reason not to have Submarines of Disneyland if you can make the submarines in Submarine Voyage notable enough to have articles. A systematic bias against commercial submarines is a bad idea. I don't see why you would have it as a subcat of Navy of California, instead of ships of California (if somesuch category exists). As for military theme-park, if it's a museum display, sure, keep it as an aircraft carrier. If it's a "demonstration" ship, ditto. As for rusting hulks... we have the USS United States, an aircraft carrier that has never been in service, that was never completed, in the aircraft carrier categories, and the HMS Queen Elizabeth never started construction. The Varyag is intact, such as it is, and was not shipped to China to be sent to the breakers, and is owned by Chinese interests. 132.205.44.134 02:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment agreed with above. The category need to be retained because it is a subject people will be looking for information on. They can then read the individual articles to learn the real stories behind these supposed aircraft carriers. There are numerous articles about proposed or half-built ships and the like which never entered service, but they still are notable for researchers. If the category simply doesn't exist, then some may conclude that Wiki has no articles on the matter. Joshbaumgartner 21:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but these ships have other categories they belong to - indeed, that they are better known for. It's not like these two articles will be lost without this category. SchmuckyTheCat 23:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Delete why have a category page for one article? MONGO 09:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Canandian aircraft carriers to Category:Aircraft carriers of Canada

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Per previous CfD, replace use of country adjective with noun, plus fixing the spelling error. Joshbaumgartner 06:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Brazilian aircraft carriers to Category:Aircraft carriers of Brazil

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Per previous CfD, replace use of country adjective with noun.Joshbaumgartner 05:57, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Barracks ships

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty category. Joshbaumgartner 05:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Sub-Categories of Jewish people

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 15:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A consensus to delete these type of Jewish categories was reached earlier in 2005 [1] and these categories should either have been deleted or not been created in the first place (probably, they were introduced by users unaware of the earlier decision/s), following the consensus to delete reached at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 April 15#Re:Sub-Categories of Jewish people. IZAK 02:58, 25 November 2005 (UTC) Please note: a consensus was reached to delete all Jewish categories which link ethnicity with country not with occupation The original reasons cited are still the same: "The splintering of categories about Jewish people is getting out of hand, and must be tightened. Too many "frivolous categories" (as in "Frivolous lawsuits") for Jews are being created on Wikipedia. The [above] sub-categories about Jews (many of whom did not even care to be identified as such!) are proposed for deletion because they are either empty/orphans, or their contents can correctly be found in other similar categories Category:Lists of Jews of lists -- or of [for example] Category:Lists of Jewish Americans, or they are basically duplicates of "List" articles in categories by country such as Category:Jewish Spanish history that can include the information [if needed]." IZAK 02:58, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above are duplicate votes, please vote below the list.

They're not votes. Go read Roberts Rules of Order. TomerTALK 08:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Jewish Americans

This category should have been deleted following the consensus to delete reached at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 April 15#Re:Sub-Categories of Jewish people.

Category:Austrian Jews

This category should have been deleted following the consensus to delete reached at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 April 15#Re:Sub-Categories of Jewish people.

Category:Jewish American actors
Category:Jewish baseball players
Category:Argentine Jews
Category:Jewish Canadians
Category:Hungarian Jews
Category:Jewish Mexicans
Category:Jewish chess players
Category:Jewish musicians
Category:Jewish classical musicians
Category:Jewish film directors
Category:Jewish scientists
Category:Jewish visual artists
Category:Jewish philosophers
I understand your objection to the Jewish American category, as some people included do not identify themselves as a Jewish American. However, this applies to all the (ethnicity) American categories so I propose that either all the (ethnicity) American should be renamed Americans of (ethnicity) descent to remove any problem with giving a person a label which they do not apply to themselves or make those new categories and only put people in the (ethnicity) American categories when we are absolutely sure they identify as such. Arniep 14:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The second idea would really be a matter of debate, again and could be POV for certain individuals because we are not sure. However, I'm not sure exactly why you think Karl Rove is a good example. He's something like 1/4 Norwegian, and just because he's spoken about it doesn't mean he thinks of himself as "Norwegian". Obviously, for most of the people in ethnicity based categories, we wouldn't even know about their ancestry unless they've somehow identified themselves as such publically.Vulturell 18:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment That is not what is being said at all. People are merely stating that it is perhaps not a useful distinction to make at such fine levels through the categorisation tool, but rather these distinctions are better suited to lists. I don't see anyone suggesting Category:Jews for deletion, where such people as you accuse Wikipedia of decreeing not Jewish can be suitably categorised. Hiding talk 16:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
comment As I said before, Jewish people have a cultural identity akin to that of nation so they should be allowed their own occupation categories as nations do, otherwise we discriminate against Jews who lived before the creation of Israel. Unfortunately, the Jewish lists are being deleted with the reasoning that the equivalent categories exist so there seems to be a bit of a mess here. Arniep 17:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
comment Category:Jews is not very helpful; it would get too big and cumbersome if it were the only appropriate category. - Poetlister 22:45, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Arniep, stop your silly arguments please, see Category:Lists of Jews, this has nothing to do with Israel, and everything to do with not repeating information listed in categories already. IZAK 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Categories and lists are different things, even if arguments overlap. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 08:48, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Rachel: are you saying that it makes to have double categories, such as these here and also Category:Lists of Jews? IZAK 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe people don't care about the others. - Poetlister 22:45, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I wish they would. On any objective assessment the overall category structure of wikipedia is much more important than the arrangement of wikipedia's coverage of Jewish issues. This is a clear case of systemic bias towards a focus on certain sensitive issues rather than overall work on creating a general interest encyclopedia. CalJW 11:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep for all. Same goes for every other religion. -- JJay 21:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The names of these people already exists in Category:Lists of Jews not nominated for deletion. IZAK 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment: What part of Strong Keep do you not understand? Are you calling me stupid? I want more of these lists and categories for every religion that exists or has ever existed. Put then in duplicate or triplicate. I don't care what religion or what list. If there is any religion in the title I vote strong keep. Every possible permutation works for me- List of Christian American employees- good stuff and an obvious keeper. List of living Buddhists- tells me what I need to know. Keep It. Strongly. I have already outlined this policy. The list could be empty- still strong keep. I voted strong keep today for an Amish bakery. Why? Amish, that's why. It could have been Unverified list of some non-notable Quakers. Same thing. I am fed up with having to vote every day on Jew lists, then Catholic lists, then back to Jew lists, with some Christianity lists thrown in for spice. Sometimes the same list over and over, submitted by anons, new users etc. etc. Is that clear? Is there something else you'ld like to badger me with?-- JJay 07:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • JJay: A lot of what you say here runs counter to the present way things work at Wikipedia. If you will list categories in "duplicate or triplicate" then they will most definitely be nominated for deletion (of duplicates/triplicates...in fact I am doing so right now), no question about it. "Every possible permutation" is not encyclopedic and not notable and not scholarly, this is not Google, we are trying to cut back on Internet clutter and organize information, not add to the craziness of the web. An empty list is an orphan and will be deleted. If you think that "everything goes" then it sounds more like a blog (?), but I doubt that Wikipedia will tolerate having tons of repeat, useless, or empty space on it. If you don't enjoy voting about something, so then don't. No-one is obliged to stick around and vote all day on subjects that drive them bats. IZAK 08:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment: You are right to point out my error. I actually didn't mean duplicate or triplicate. I meant duplicate or triplicate squared. I want carbon copies of the results. I didn't mean "every possible permutation". I meant to say "every possible permutation + sincere attempts at the impossible". With and without content. Wasn't that clear from my previous examples? Try this logic out. I did not create these lists. I do not use these lists. I have never contributed to these lists. Religion does not even interest me very much. But I want more lists. I want them kept as strongly as anything can be kept. I may employ a service to warn me if any item with a known or unknown religion in its title is nominated, so my Strong Keep can stand proud and brave at the head of the pack. If Wikipedia has to hire temp workers to man the shredders 24 hours a day to get rid of the excessive religious lists that now clog the hallways and byways at Wikipedia HQ, like a diseased heart, well so be it. I call them as I see them. Thank you. No-one is obliged to nominate these lists. Have I questioned whether they enjoy it? Do you enjoy browbeating me with your authoritive knowledge of Wikipedia policy? I have voted, I have tried to respond to your inquiries, I hide nothing. Good day. -- JJay 08:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment Pointing out now, as I always will, that EVERY SINGLE OTHER ETHNIC AND RELIGIOUS GROUP HAS A DOUBLE LISTING IN THE SENSE THAT YOU TALK ABOUT. If you don't nominate at least one of those for deletion before (as no doubt you will) you re-nominate the Jewish cats separately, I will remove any new Jewish-related CFD by you on grounds of Extreme Annoyance.Vulturell 08:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Excuse me, will you also undo what was voted and decided upon in Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 April 15#Re:Sub-Categories of Jewish people? The fact remains you have TWO categories for Jews as in the case of Category:Jewish Americans and Category:Lists of Jewish Americans which is ALSO (i.e. it doubles as) a CATEGORY of Jewish names. No other group has this, and it's not needed, as other groups don't have it. Other ethnic/religious groups do not have this. Are you about to ignore all the users who are expressing themsleves on this page and do something BEFORE the expiration of a VfD? I will ask for arbitration then. IZAK 08:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • Obviously things have changed since April 15th, since right now the "Keep" votes outnumber the Deletes. Back then there wasn't a single "Keep". Category:Lists of Jews is NOT A LISTING OF NAMES. It's a LINK to various Lists. Not its own category. We don't add names to this category, just lists. That's the difference. What I said was that I would remove any FUTURE CFD's on these same Jewish categories (I.e. separate ones) by you, not the ones under current discussion because I am tired of you relentlessly nominating Jewish categories exclusively.Vulturell 08:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • Whatver the outcome of the vote here, we will all abide by it as per our rules. However I do not get your "threat", what "AFD"s are you talking about? What kind of statement is that? Why are you using threats? How often do I get involved in "AFD"s? You are insulting my skill as a Wikipedian and my devotion to maintaining a high standrd for its articles. Stick to the point of the present CfD will you and we'll cross future bridges when we get to them. IZAK 08:40, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • I am not talking about these CFDs or the outcome. What I am saying is that no doubt, based on this discussion, someone is going to CFD these categories AGAIN (separately this time) in the very near future and I am not threatening, I am stating as fact that I am going to remove that future AFD on grounds of extreme annoyance at this special attention to "cleaning up" Jewish categories, attention which is not given to any other ethnic or religious category or list.Vulturell 08:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • Errr, this page is for C fD (C ategories for deletion) and NOT A fD (A rticles for deletion) which has its own section/page on Wikipedia. No wonder you are getting me confused. You are mixing up cfd with afd. So you are saying you will be on the lookout for the categories and/or for articles? Or both? (I guess since "Lists" go under "articles" you are getting confused.) Anyhow, as I have said before, I am not proposing that "Lists" be deleted. I think that lists are neater work better than categories in many instances. But others may differ. Just we don't need double categories for the same people for now. IZAK 08:52, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
                • I was talking about removing any upcoming CFD's from these same categories that are nominated right now. I also said that if you want to nominate Category:Lists of Jews go ahead because it isn't actually a list and I don't care about it. In my opinion the category "Jewish Americans" is better than a List.Vulturell 08:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. — Instantnood 21:58, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Please be reminded {{cfdu}} should be used instead. — Instantnood 22:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep for all. - Poetlister 22:45, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep for all. Please not that the consensus was not to delete all sub-categories of Jewish people but instead to delete their sub-sub-categories, for example Jewish American actors/baseballers/writers, etc. --Vizcarra 23:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why, you already have Category:Lists of Jews? IZAK 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • The same can be said about most lists and categories. The purpose of keeping them as categories is for navigation. The purpose of lists are to include people, objects that do not have a wikipedia article yet. Both lists and categories have different purposes. And I feel you are being overzealous by responding to every "keep" vote with a mention of "why if we already have lists". You've made your point. Let people vote. If we don't have these sub-categories (by nationality) the Category:Jewish people will grow so large it will be useless. --Vizcarra 12:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep for all. This is what categories are for. LISTS are useless User:Ejrrjs says What? 23:29, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think so. (all) Lists are a poor substitute of database functionality (they allow for redundancy, lack of consistency, etc.). Categories are a step in the right direction. User:Ejrrjs says What? 07:09, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree completely. If I had to chose one I would pick the categories. Categories and the people's entries are tied together nicely (but the lists and entries aren't), and you can't add someone completely non-Jewish like John Updike (who I've seen added - and removed myself from a Jewish list) to a category like "Jewish Americans" without the regulars on his article noticing and taking it down as non-factual. Also please nominate the other lists (Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans) for deletion if you do the Jewish lists. I am not making an ultimatium here or anything, I am just asking you politely because those lists suffer from the exact same problems as the Jewish lists and are also better in category form, and because we have to be consistant and not keep any of these lists around if we delete one or a group.Vulturell 07:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all of the "Jewish American such-and-such profession" categories, if they are being used at the expense of including Jews with other Americans. Jewish culture in America is not that distinct from American culture in general. I certainly agree with Hooperbloob about making sure these are added to the corresponding "American such-and-such profession" categories. Perhaps retain Category:Jewish American: I suspect that if we get rid of it, it will simply resurface, anyway. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:29, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

Comment: Anyone who voted with a some insulting comment about the alleged anti-semitism of other editors is violating WP:CIVIL, WP:FAITH, and generally being a schmuck. Just stop it!
I can sympathize with whoever made that comment because they are most likely tired of the weekly nominations of these categories and lists. Obviously, based on the votes above, these categories aren't getting deleted. Yet you know that in about two weeks to a month they'll be nominated for deletion again (probably in a couple of days, actually, as we can now expect separate nominations for each category). And again. And again. It's boring and stupid and pointless and I'm sure that whoever made those comments is just as tired as I am of this process, which miraculuously only ever seems to involve categories relating to Jewish people. I really hope they nominate an Irish, Albanian or Norwegian category next time too. The Presbyterians category wouldn't hurt either.Vulturell 08:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe Jewish categories and lists keep getting nominated because they have the most numerous amount of pointless articles? Also, most Jewish lists that have been nominated recently HAVE been deleted - it's only these categories that (from the looks of it) won't because they are all grouped together. IMO, Category:Hungarian Jews and Category:Austrian Jews seriously needs to go. There was already a deletion of a duplicate Austrian jewish list recently - I can't believe there's yet another duplicate article. StabRule 10:35, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly! There are two aspects here. There are so many more Jewish categories than any other ethnicity/religion, that if you throw a dart you're practically assured of hitting one. But also, I think some deletion nominators find something wrong with this very multitude, and that unconsciously (or consciously) prompts them to try to prune some of the individual ones that seem excessive. You can't nominate an Albanian category for deletion if it doesn't exist in the first place. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The goyim have not been completely excluded- let's not forget all the Catholic lists that have also been nominated recently. This is all fairly sickening and is driving people away from the wiki. I feel like citing Martin Niemöller here but that might not be kosher. -- JJay 16:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the problem here seems to be that there are categories AND lists for Jewish people. But that is also the case with Albanians, Norwegians, etc. However, the Albanian caegory more or less has 3 people on it (the two Belushis and Eliza Dushku) and I have to say it is more or less complete (Dushku said in an an interview "I'm the one" when it comes to Albanian celebrities, I think she forgot the Belushis). It is true that there are more famous Jewish Americans than Norwegian or Albanian Americans, but it doesn't mean their category has to go first.Vulturell 18:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There might well be more famous Jewish Americans than Norwegian Americans, and certainly than Albanians. But there are far fewer Jewish Americans than there are Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Polish Americans, or Mexican Americans (even if you limit things to the "famous" ones). And yet those other groups have barely any categories associated with them. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the case for Polish-Americans, although you are correct about Irish/Italian. Those groups have all have a separate list i.e. "List Of Irish-Americans", etc. and they have plenty of categories including the obvious "Italian-Americans", "Irish-American Politicians", etc.Vulturell 08:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
According to a quick search [2]:
In 1970 [...] statistics for the Polonia coming from the same source are 4,941,000 Americans of Polish descent (2.4% of the population)
So maybe "far fewer" is a slight overstatement for Polish Americans, but definitely fewer Jewish Americans. Neither group has had much new immigration to the USA since 1970, but I'm pretty sure the birth rate of Polish Americans has been slightly higher than for Jewish Americans since 1970 (and there's been a moderate Jewish emmigration, but essentially no Polish emmigration). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 08:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nono I don't think you understood me. No doubt there are more Polish-Americans but I am saying there are less NOTABLE Polish-Americans. For example, I am huge actor/movie buff and I've added the "Polish-Americans" cat to just about every actor of 1/4 or more Polish descent - and there are a lot less people than "Jewish American actors".Vulturell 08:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Of no informational value, potentially stigmatizing, often not supported by fact. JFW | T@lk 20:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, I guess. Seems like reasonable info for an encylopedia.Herostratus 03:51, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes and it's enough to have these names already included in Category:Lists of Jews. IZAK 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • You know, I just love how you keep saying that. Yes, these names (well, most) are included in the lists as well. Just as the people under Category:Irish-Americans are included in "List Of Irish-Americans", Category:Roman Catholics in "List Of Roman Catholics", etc. I also just love how you managed to exclude any of those lists or categories from your ever-watchful, deletion-minded eye.Vulturell 06:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Again, Vulturall: It is you that is confusing things. I am not talking about deleting the "Lists" of anything, but when in fact there is also a CATEGORY for Jewish lists, as in Category:Lists of Jews we DO NOT need to have the Jews mentioned TWICE in categories: For example to be once in Category:Jewish Americans and then a SECOND time in Category:Lists of Jewish Americans. I say keep the latter, and delete the former, because these individuals do not have to be mentioned twice in categories of who is Jewish when just once will do. IZAK 08:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't think you get it. The names are NOT MENTIONED in Category:Lists of Jews. Lists of Jews is just a link to, indeed, the various Lists of Jews. Thus the names are mentioned TWICE, once in the category "Jewish Americans" and once in "List Of Jewish Americans". Category:Lists of Jews is just a LINK to the various "List Of Jewish Americans". The same for Irish-Americans, their names are mentioned TWICE, once in the list and once in their cat. Please stop trying to make Category:Lists of Jews seem like a THIRD time that the names are mentioned. It's just a navigational tool.Vulturell 08:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • WHat you call "just a navigational tool" is a matter of interpretation and familiarity with using Wikipedia. Any intelligent user will be able to do a search on any name and see where they belong, first on the list, and then with the list as part of category they can search for more names and lists. I am not underestimating the intellignce of Wikipedia users, whereas you seem to want to create zillions of categories for a few million Jews. IZAK 08:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • If you don't like this navigational tool nominate it for deletion. I don't really care because it's NOT A LISTING OF NAMES, it just makes it easier to navigate. If you think it doesn't make it easier for smart people go ahead and nominate that category (as in Category:Lists of Jews for deletion). All I want is a cateory called "Jewish Americans" (which already exists and which I doubt will be deleted). I realize there is also a "List of Jewish Americans", but I have no strong feelings towards it because that's the case with the Category "Irish-Americans" (i.e. the info is duplicated in List of Irish-Americans"). That's all I want. It's not unreasonable because if the category "Jewish Americans" is deleted than Ben Stiller would only be listed under "Irish-Americans" which is not completely accurate without the Jewish Americans category also there and the same for Jennifer Connelly and so on and so on. You can't take one of these categories out but leave the rest.Vulturell 08:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. These reproducing sub-categories often represent the worst of Wikipedia. We don't use a consistent definition of who is Jewish, we've no idea what sources were used by the articles listed or what definition those sources used, inclusion in the cats is potentially stigmatizing, we're categorizing as Jewish people who may not self-identify as such, they have no informational value, and the number of sub-categories makes things hard to find, when the point of categories is meant to be to help people find things. I'd delete all the Lists of Jewish ... (philosophers with blonde hair who smoke Camel) for the same reasons. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all that already have a list - like List of Jews in visual arts, List of Jewish musicians, List of Hungarian Jews, List of Austrian Jews, List of Jewish Americans OR delete the corresponding lists and keep the categories. Strong delete for Category:List of Jewish classical musicians <--- way too specific. StabRule 06:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • comment This vote was made as a personal attack on me, because this user is a multiple sock puppet user whose been carrying out a campaign against Jewish lists, he specifically singled out the classical musicians category because I created it. Arniep 13:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
No I singled it out because about 10 other lists exist exactly like it - and it's way too specific. I also would like for you to act at least minimally more mature as I have explained to you perhaps 100 bazillian times that I have not sockpuppeted (in fact, you introduced me to the term) and don't do anything to spite you - in fact, you certainly do much more to spite me. StabRule 21:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete plenty of lists covering these same people for the most part.--MONGO 09:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep - a list does some things a category can't, and a category does some things a list can't, so saying "delete this category because there is a list" is clearly faulty reasoning. I believe that the entire VfD situation for religious categories and lists has gotten absurd, with no attempts whatsoever to establish a remotely consistent, orderly schematic for what lists and categories are worth keeping and when in these situations. I propose a massive vote on this issue in the style of those Gdansk/Danzig votes and other much-needed consensus polls to determine what we should and shouldn't aim to keep and thus keep the VfD pages from being daily flooded with countless ambiguous, isolated, disorganized, and poorly-reasoned-out nominations for religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation + x. Otherwise we'll just keep going in circles and waste valuable time that should be spent improving our important categories, lists and articles, not going back and forth and back and forth over which to annihilate. -Silence 12:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. If someone is in a category for Americans, and Jews, and Visual Artists, it is pretty easy to figure out that they are a Jewish American Visual Artist. If others insist on subcategorizing to such a degree, then you end up with x*y*z subs where x is the number of countries, y is the number of religions, and z is the number of professions. Oh, and of course we can throw in a few more groups like gender and sexual orientation just to knock the number of further. --StuffOfInterest 13:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the sensible ones, delete the frivolous ones. For instance, keep Jewish-Americans or Jewish Physicists, delete Jewish left-handeds. (for example only). Gzuckier 22:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. Since the site already has numerous categories for the ethnicities of people, the above categories are completely appropriate. -- Crevaner 22:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I believe there needs to be some sort of consensus on hopw to structure the category tree with regards to categories such as these if, judging by the consensus above, they are kept. I personally would prefer to see a whole new category branch, "ethnic group" people in "area", so rather than Jewish chess players we have Jewish people in chess. This could then be placed in Category:Chess rather than in Category:Chess players and also in a Category:Chess players by ethnicity and Category:Jewish people by occupational area. This would also allow for categories such as Category:African-American people in music and so on and so forth, and help keep the category system as useful as possible. Otherwise I feel we are over-categorising, and possibly woirking against the purpose of informing, by having such categories as Category:Chess players subdivided by ethnicity, which is the logical conclusion if the current scheme continues. The point of the categorisation is surely to classify as usefully as possible, and allow for such classification to be presented as usefully as possible. Surely it makes sense to have a category which simply lists all people who are chess players? Hiding talk 14:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Category:Jewish American actors, Category:Jewish baseball players, Category:Jewish chess players, Category:Jewish musicians, Category:Jewish classical musicians, Category:Jewish film directors, Category:Jewish scientists,Category:Jewish visual artists, and Category:Jewish philosophers—occupation-by-ethnicity categories are unnecessary and useless without annotations to describe what the relationship was of the ethnicity to the occupation, if any. There likely were a few people whose Jewishness had an academically meaningful impact upon their baseball careers, but that's not going to be true of all Jewish baseball players. Annotated lists are the only way to seriously document such things rather than merely grouping them together in a classificatory ethnic fan club that ignores the need for relevance and comparative importance. No vote as to the others. Postdlf 02:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all, I don't think any subjects should be categorized by their ethnicity. Or is this a religious thing? --maclean25 05:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.


Category:Puerto Rican Baseball Players to Category:Puerto Rican baseball players

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. Martin 22:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Name is currently out of compliance with similar categories. --Nlu 20:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Spouses

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Spouses of whom? The category name itself is not useful, and there are no standards listed. The people classified in the category itself should suggest that the category is not useful. Strong delete. --Nlu 21:17, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

&Delete. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I populated the category for two reasons: (1) There are people who, absent this category, would have no significant category -- Sara Dylan, Virgina Poe, etc. I mean, how else are you going to categorize Sara Dylan? Now, if people like her shouldn't BE in Wikipedia, that's another issue; but if they ARE, they ought to have a cateory. And, (2), the category, while somewhat trivial, is not utterly so, IMO.

Category nomenclature is a problem, as Spouses is too broad, People who are notable primarily because of their marriage to a notable person is too long, and anything else would be unclear. I don't have an answer to that one.

Instantnood -- that would this category. Soltak, Nlu, Mkill, Vulturell -- would a nomenclature change as proposed above be sufficient? Ejrrjrs -- it that is true, the category has the benefit of presenting a number of articles which, perhaps, should be deleted, if so you may wish to use it to nominate a number of articles to AfD; but as noted, the articles DO exist, perhaps the category should also? JJay -- True, one problem with the category is that it contains two types of people: people who are really ONLY notable for the connection to and influence on their spouse (Sara Dylan, Patti Boyd, Clementine Churchill, etc.) and people who have SOME notability on their own but (1) they only obtained their notability because of their spouse (Lindy Boggs, Yoko Ono, Martha Mitchell, etc.) or (2) their spouse is much MORE notable and their connection to their spouse is an IMPORTANT part of their notability (Peter III and indeed most royals, Linda McCartney, etc.) Herostratus 00:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

First ladies have their own category, so they needn't be included here. Hillary Clinton is a US Senator and so too notable on her own to be included here now anyway. Herostratus
Comment: But Lady Di does belong here? Should Hillary have been here, but then removed when she became a Senator? Or is this category here in readiness for when Hil takes command, since I doubt we have a category for first men? Is this knowledge really even necessary? -- JJay 03:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment exactly, the category is pointless it serves no useful purpose whatsoever. Arniep 03:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overly broad categorization that could technically include, at a stab-in-the-dark guess, about 85% of the people with Wikipedia articles. A lot of people here are already notable enough on their own, and not just as the spouse of someone more genuinely notable. At the very least, rename to Category:Spouses of notable people if this is kept, although my personal inclination would be to delete. Bearcat 07:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete Because. Sethie 07:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I created the category as a parent for other categories; I didn't expect it to be populated with individual articles. Renaming to something like Category:Spouses of notable people, and having the description limit the category to articles to people who are famous largely for being spouses seems like it might be better. tregoweth 09:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not useful ike9898 14:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Herostratus again. tregoweth I did not know that. When I found the category it had 2 or 3 articles in it (besides the subcategories). Couple comments:
    • The category is not intended to include people who are notable on their own but happen to also be married to a notable person. I should think that's a fairly straightforward proposition.
    • I'm not sure it's an irretrivably POV category, provided that a good text description is written into the page. However, this might require the removal of people who WERE notable, but only because of who they were married to (Martha Mitchell, Lynne Cheney, Melinda Gates, Linda McCartney, Lady Di, etc.), because that could be POV I suppose, although I would think with good faith it should be pretty easy to figure out who belongs and who doesn't. But whatever.

(And probably others who aren't yet in the category.)

Now, the question I have is:

  1. Should the above articles be deleted? Quite possibly the answer is YES, I don't have an opinion on that now. (And then you would have consideration of mistresses such as Megan Marshak also.
  2. If the answer is YES, obviously the category goes too (unless retained as an umprella for tregoweth's subcategories, and so stated).
  3. But if the answer is NO, should the category go anyway, or should it be retained? I don't really know, I'm just asking. But if does go and the articles stay, those articles will have no categorization at all, except for "xxx Births", xxx Deaths", and "People from xxx", which normally would be seen as insufficient categorization, I think. (Well some would be categorized under "The Beatles.)

Herostratus 02:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.
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