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Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 September 23

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September 23

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Art museums and galleries

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 14:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rename

Category:Art museums and galleries in the UK to Category:Art museums and galleries in the United Kingdom
Category:Art museums and galleries in the U.S. to Category:Art museums and galleries in the United States
Category:Asian art museums in the U.S. to Category:Asian art museums in the United States

∞Who?¿? 23:21, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Handbook of Texas citations

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The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 14:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't seem very useful; simply adds a category to pages that have the Handbook of Texas as a reference. What links here on the template will do the same. Delete. --SPUI (talk) 22:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Maldivean music

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The result of the debate was Delete deleted as empty. ∞Who?¿? 08:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty, marked for deletion on Sept 13 by User:Oblivious but not listed here. --Kbdank71 16:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Maldivean sport

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The result of the debate was Delete deleted as empty. ∞Who?¿? 08:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty, marked for deletion on Sept 13 by User:Oblivious but not listed here. --Kbdank71 16:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Maldivean culture

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The result of the debate was Delete deleted as empty. ∞Who?¿? 08:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty, marked for deletion on Sept 13 by User:Oblivious but not listed here. --Kbdank71 16:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Hotels of Arizona

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:11, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty, marked for deletion on Sept 10 by User:Ddespie@san.rr.com but not listed here. Delete. --Kbdank71 15:57, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Hanna-Barbera's Cartoon Corral

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The result of the debate was Delete deleted as empty. ∞Who?¿? 08:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty, marked for deletion on Aug 26 by User:Ddespie@san.rr.com but not listed here. Delete. --Kbdank71 15:44, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Cardinals (birds)

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The result of the debate was Delete deleted as empty. ∞Who?¿? 08:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty, marked for deletion on Sept 14 by User:Snafflekid but not listed here. Delete. --Kbdank71 15:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Lists of municipalities of Mexico

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The result of the debate was Delete deleted as empty. ∞Who?¿? 08:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is a redundant and empty subcategory. Lists of municipalities are already located in parent category. -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 13:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Doctor Who wars

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Very few wars have been seen in Doctor Who (unlike Star Trek or Star Wars) major enough to warrant anything more than a stub article, or have information that cannot be redirected the appropriate episode/story entry (I have redirected the sole other entry, Kaled-Thal war, to History of the Daleks, which has all the same information and more). The only war that has had a major impact on the series, and thus is notable, is the Time War, and that's just the one article, which I have re-categorized under Category:Fictional wars. There is little to no scope for expansion in this category and it should be deleted. khaosworks (talk • contribs) 11:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:New Amsterdam history

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The result of the debate was merge with Category:New York City history --Kbdank71 14:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New Netherland was the colony, New Amsterdam (present-day New York City) simply a town in the colony. The colony of New Netherland extended from New Amsterdam (present-day New York City) and western Long Island up the Hudson River valley as far as present-day Albany, and also included much of the present-day state of New Jersey. This category should thus be renamed to Category:New Netherland history, because the category should of course be the colony. It looks rather peculiar to see "New Netherland" listed as an article in the category "New Amsterdam history", when it should be the other way around -- "New Amsterdam" should be listed as an article in a category "New Netherland history". I have the feeling that the original creator of this category might have mistakenly thought that New Amsterdam was the colony.

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LAUSD cats

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 13:37, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:LAUSD and Category:LAUSD schools

converted to {{cfru}} ∞Who?¿? 07:00, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Buried in Kensal Green Cemetery

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 13:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty obvious that the articles will be about dead people, not treasure hoards or dogs' bones, but think renaming to Category:People buried in Kensal Green Cemetery will remove a certain awkwardness. CalJW 05:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Non-standard visitor attractions categories

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 13:32, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All the categories in Category:British visitor attractions by locality are in the same form except:

CalJW 05:00, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment In principle I agree that all the Birmingham, England categories should be renamed "... in/of Birmingham" to match the naming policy in the article namespace. However, this was discussed previously - the archive is at Category talk:Birmingham - after Category:Birmingham had been created for articles about Birmingham, Alabama. The decision was to leave Category:Birmingham as a disambiguation cat and create Category:Birmingham, Alabama for that city. Almost all the subcats for Birmingham, England are already called "...in/of Birmingham, England" so the visitor attractions subcat should follow that usage. You'd have to raise a separate umbrella CfR if you want to re-open the whole issue. Valiantis 16:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Universites and colleges in Turkey

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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted as misspelling, see log. ∞Who?¿? 22:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Universities" is misspelled, there's already a Category:Universities and colleges in Turkey, and the one article in this category can be placed into that one. Kamezuki 04:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Totalitarian dictators

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The result of the debate was Delete. ∞Who?¿? 02:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC) Inherently POV. - SimonP 02:36, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Calling this Inherently POV is inherently moral relativism, as if one person's dictator could be another person's non-violent pacifist. We are not that incapable of making judgements.--Silverback 14:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete agree with nom. ∞Who?¿? 03:26, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Well I assumed there was a similar cat like Category:Dictators, however there is not. Dictatorship mentions an Absolute Monarchy, but no cat for that either. If you take a look at Category:Forms of government, it shows several forms, but I could not find anything remotely close. It is odd that we do not already have a cat to cover this. So possibly rename Category:Dictators. I do not think that Category:War criminals would cover the rule of a land/governement. ∞Who?¿? 06:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete CalJW 05:00, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to Category:War criminals. There is not a category that accurately groups people like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. There should be some way to do this while still remaining neutral. -- Dave C.talk | Esperanza 05:45, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or at least rename. There should be a category where we can have these despots. --Ezeu 06:18, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Inherently POV --Jiang 06:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete --Haham hanuka 07:11, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Delete See Talk:List of dictators Wizzy…☎ 07:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. No way to make this NPOV. Shanes 08:15, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As nominator. --Tony SidawayTalk 08:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep,dictatorships can probably be considered totalitarian if they forcefully suppress emigration or if they murder or imprison opposition, or minorities or intellectuals. These actions demonstrate the fascist presumption of total control of individuals lives. This seems quite workable, the main problem appears to be when dictatorial powers are shared by an oligarchy as in the USSR, because dictator, in english at least, is usually reserved for one man rule. Perhaps there should also be a totalitarian oligarchy category.--Silverback 12:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Surely dictator is well-defined enough to not be POV?! I'm thinking that in my understanding, all dictators are by definition totalitarian or they are not dictators, but that's a side issue, really. I specifically oppose the war criminals suggestion: that most dictators are/have been suspected of war crimes is unhappy coincidence rather than part of the job. -Splashtalk 14:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    I almost want to agree that the most of them are totalitarian in nature, but it would still seem POV, I think just "Dictator" pretty much covers the ground, as well is broad enough for others. (And it's not a job, its an adventure). ∞Who?¿? 16:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    all dictators are by definition totalitarian or they are not dictators, but that's a side issue, really No, they are not. Look up the definition of the terms in a reliable textbook or sourcebook on politics (not Wikipedia), such as the Oxford Dictonary of Politics. 172 | Talk 19:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Well depending on the dictionary totalitarian and absolute power are synonymous, but they can mean two different things. I think there is POV either way. But the fact that we can define those two terms seperately shows that it is NPOV. There is an inherit problem with populating these type of cats due to POV, but I feel there is a point where some "rulers" would fit w/o disagreement. I see that Category:Dictators has been deleted twice before, which is understandable reading the comments here. However, at one point someone had to have been labeled that or the word itself would be useless and not on Wikipedia. ∞Who?¿? 22:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Totalitarian dictator is a different animal than the ordinary dictator. The ordinary dictator may just be one man rule resulting from a military coup, but not have much control over the populace because he hasn't engaged in terrorism or suppression. I guess totalitarian is to be distinguished from petty corrupt dictatorships that much of the third world used to be famous for.--Silverback 18:28, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. --Kbdank71 15:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete and salt the earth it once walked upon. There is no way this can ever be NPOV. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 16:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    As evidence, I added several names who were unquestionably totalitarian dictators (certainly as much as the names previously added). Someone (an anon FWIW), immediately reverted the page of Anastasio Somoza Debayle. I'm not going to edit war over that particular dictator. But the category provably devolves into Category:Totalitarian dictators who do not have active supporters among Wikipedia editors.
    As further evidence, one of the "keep" voters seems to be "gaming the system." S/he put the cat tag on Fidel castro, which is not the same page as Fidel Castro, but a redirect to the correct spelling. I kinda presume the thought here was that regular editors would never let the cat stay on the real page; but it could be snuck into the category through a subtle misspelling. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Why oppose a category because the real problem is a clique or cadre. Let's not avoid the real problem. Fidel Castro fits the definition of totalitarian dictator, and also is one of the totalitarian dictators that has active supporters among Wikipedia editors, strangely a significant part of his support is from those who do not think communism is compatible with a state, and who also object to Cuba being categorized as a communist state instead of socialist. I guess he is a socialist who just happens to try to kill people who try to excape, who puts the opposition in prison, and who won't let the families of those who have escaped join them in their chosen country. As for gaming the system, I didn't do anything there I won't do to the actual page later on. It was a legitimate edit made in good faith. If you reverted it, I hope you can make the same claim. I'd be happy to debate the issues with you.--Silverback 18:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    And this is exactly why the category is so awful. Proponents of specific political positions, like Silverback, are more than happy to game the system to get as suggested criticism of their disfavored figures. (C'mon, sneaking in a cat on a misspelling is "good faith"! I have a bridge I'd like to sell you). There's no hint of a definition underlying category membership. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 18:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    I gave a hint when I voted.--Silverback 19:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. - Gilgamesh 16:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete. A category to be useful must have an exact definition. The same problem as with category:villains, which was eventually agreed is good only for fictional characters. While in some cases there could be a consensus, in most cases there will be not. mikka (t) 17:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, reluctantly, and purely for the sake of avoiding the 1001 edit wars such a category will inevitably provoke, and which in itself would be a worse thing for wikipedia than not having the category, SqueakBox 18:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Inherently POV. Classifying regimes is the business of political scientists, not Wikipedia editors. And political scientists always disgree on what totalitarianism is, when to apply it, and even on whether or not it's a useful concept. This category inevitably leads to original research and POV. 172 | Talk 18:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Until the discussion concludes, would you mind repopulating the category? Unless the category to be deleted is non-controversial – please do not depopulate the category before the community has made a decision. Thanks. --Kbdank71 19:30, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Repopulating the category would be a violation of the two most important Wikipedia policies: NPOV and no original research. 172 | Talk 19:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    172 is correct here. Most CfD's concern administrative questions, but are NPOV either way. Whether Category:Songs about cheese is worth having might be debatable, but it's not a POV political agenda to list a song that way. For some cats like this one (and, e.g. the successfully CfD'd "Political correctness") listing an article is inherently "commentary by categorization". Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 19:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Is it your contention that zero articles fit in this category? Carbonite | Talk 19:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    We all have our pet lists. There are some we could mutually agree on. But doing so would be esablishing that we both share a POV, and would establish nothing more. This was all thrashed out on Talk:List of dictators. Wizzy…☎ 21:04, 24 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Carbonite-- yes, zero articles fit in this category in accordance with NPOV. There are a number of influential Soviet experts that even question the application of the concept of totalitarianism to Stalinist Russia, which comes closest to the historical approximation of totalitarianism of any regime. So there fails to be the scholarly consensus holding a single regime to be totalitarian-- even Stalin's Russia, needed to make this categorization from a neutral point of view. I point this out despite my own perspective. I personally think an understanding of totalitarism is valuable in many areas of research. 172 | Talk 17:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Agree with above keep comments Carbonite | Talk 19:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Category:Dictators has already been created and deleted twice [2] [3]. This category has the same problems and deserves the same fate. —Charles P. (Mirv) 20:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Who is and is not a "totalitarian dictator" is not widely agreed-upon, and it is not a binary attribute, so simply isn't appropriate for categories. Basically, what 172 said. CDC (talk) 20:44, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Controversial and opinion-based. This will never be useful. - Nat Krause 08:22, 24 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as "hopelessly POV", as we generally call it. James F. (talk) 18:33, 24 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Cats shouldn't be used for commentary, as per Lulu; it's also a total (and totally unnecessary) flytrap for vandals. Ziggurat 21:02, 24 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Inherently POV RustyCale 22:38, 24 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete POV. Jobe6   01:38, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This is considerably more problematic than Category:Dictators, and should share its fate (as many times as necessary). Alai 12:58, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. In many case it's already contentious to decide when a ruler is a dictator, to decide when a dictator is totalitarian is simply POV Aldux 13:05, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The combination of two loosely defined terms here has resulted in a very loosely defined category, and this ambiguity lends itself to POV insertions. siafu 22:35, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: inherently POV. -Sean Curtin 04:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I have no idea why people are calling this "inherently PoV" — the notions of totalitarianism and dictatorship are perfectly clear and objective; I wonder if there's some confusion concerning what PoV means, or over the meanings of the terms? Perhaps the problem is that they're often misused (like "fascist" or "Nazi"), but that's not a reason to delete the category. User:172 has claimed (on very thin evidence) that "most political scientists" disagree over what counts as totalitarianism; from my reading that seems simply to be false. Perhaps some people are worried that certain articles shouldn't be in the category; perhaps they're right, but that's a reason to take them out, not to delete the category (I think that a number of people in Category:Philosophers shouldn't be there, but the idea that it should therefore be deleted is absurd). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:37, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • the notions of totalitarianism and dictatorship are perfectly clear and objective Pure nonsense. If any country is categorized as "totalitarian," there will be scholarly opposition, and not because some academics like objective truth while others can get PhDs with the intent of distorting truth, but because there isn't even a single definition of the concept, let alone a science for applying it. A good summary of the long-running controversy over the totalitarian model is offered in Shela Fitzpatrick's "Politics as Practice: Thoughts on a New Soviet Political History" found in the Project Muse database. [4] I am not making the case on behalf of the social theorists and political scientists who reject the various totalitarian models of Arendt, Brzezinski, or Kirkpatrick; but I am pointing that given the fact that there is debate, taking one side over another would be a violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Further, if professional political scientists can't agree on whether or not even Stalin's Russia was totalitarian, this call is well outside the realm of Wikipedia editors, given the policy against "original research." 172 | Talk 15:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Scholars may disagree, but the man on Kampala's streets in 1978 knows what totalitarianism and dictatorship is. Not calling a dog a dog is POV, and refraining from calling a dog a dog for fear of controversy is pusillanimous. --Ezeu 19:42, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • We can call a dog a dog. But the problem with the category is a separate matter. The regime that the dog ran might fit into the category of authoritarianism rather than totalitarianism-- social science terms that are meant to be applied carefully in formal sources like encyclopedias. In the final analysis, this hardly makes the authoritarian ruler any less of a dog; so paying attention to scholarly standards does not come with the cost of being pusillanimous, as you seem to be suggesting. 172 | Talk 00:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the cat should go (delete), since from working at Belarusian related articles, many people in the West agree that Lukashenko is a dictator, but people from the CIS nations think he is great or not a dictator. It is a POV laden term, such as terrorist. As my friends use to say, One mans dictator is one man's beloved leader. Zach (Sound Off) 23:56, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, NPOV first and foremost. --fvw* 00:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I'm not sure if this is still a live vote, but the category is ridiculous - not everyone even agrees that the term totalitarian is appropriate for any regimes. Even for those who feel it is appropriate, only a tiny number of people would actually be universally agreed to fit - maybe as few as 2 (Hitler and Stalin). john k 00:04, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete -- Total POV. I agree w/ Silverback and many other voters that one person's dictator can be another person's pacifist. Svest 02:22, 2 October 2005 (UTC)  Wiki me up&#153;[reply]
  • Delete -- It could NPOV, if people would stick to scholarly definitions, However there are too many people adound that won't do this. When I came across it, the only "member" was Suharto. A dictator, certainly not a nice guy, but hardly totalitarian. Str1977 15:05, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... obviously I agree with the conclusion of "delete". But the example seems weird to me, Suharto was certainly totalitarian by any definition other than Kirkpatrick's "US allies don't count" one. Certainly his inclusion makes a lot more sense than the infinitely absurd listing of Lenin (or Castro), whom the Kirkpatrick anti-Communists want "just because we don't like them." But then, I think of "scholarly" as Arendt or Reich's frameworks, not as the crappola of Feith or Wolfowitz's capriciousness. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 16:22, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Suharto is considered authoritarian under Juan Linz's framework. I'm not sure if I know his political leanings, but I'm under the impression that he's a moderate European social democrat, and hardly a Reaganite. Suharto did not have an elaborate guiding ideology and bring all institutions of society under state direction, so I'd learn toward Linz's approach myself... At any rate, we can agree to disagree; this should just go to show everyone why the category is not workable on Wikipedia! 172 | Talk 18:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, 172, you could write the missing Juan Linz article on WP, so that we can see what this fraemework he proposes is. I confess I don't know his work, since my doctorate is in social/political philosophy rather than political science or sociology. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 18:26, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I wasn't aware of that. I thought there was an article... Good suggestion. 172 | Talk 18:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note please do not depopulate this category until it is properly listed on the Cleanup section. The discussion is closed but remaining listed to allow time for any disputes on the closing decision. ∞Who?¿? 02:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Ecclesiastical state

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 13:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This category only exists to further the POV-pushing attempts of User:67.124.49.20, User:208.57.91.27, User:Johnski, and User:Samspade. It has been populated only through edits that have deliberately sidestepped the process of reaching consensus on the issue of Dominion of Melchizedek. If we were to keep it, it would be a small category with little potential for growth. Jdavidb 02:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Guinevere Jones episodes

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The result of the debate was delete --Rick Block (talk) 02:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All its content are articles with out info and probaly going to be deleted those articles in VFD so after that the category is going to be useless Delete --Aranda56 01:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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