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Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 28

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August 28

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Leftover Wikipedians by interest

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 16:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Now that category:Wikipedians by interest is cleaned up, here are some stragglers.

Check these categories’ ubercategories for styles (though I couldn’t quite shoehorn the sewing category into category:Wikipedian sewers for obvious reasons). I still haven’t found the determination to tackle the international rugby, soccer, and cricket categories in category:Wikipedians interested in watching sports, though.--Mike Selinker 00:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. There are more motor vehicles on the road than just cars. I think motorists, is likely the better term (and also avoids the issue of truck vs lorry), but I suppose I wouldn't oppose substituting "motor vehicles" for "cars", but only if absolutely necessary.
  2. Category:Wikipedians who like sewing and Category:Wikipedians who like crocheting sound more appropriate.
- Jc37 19:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Five tool players

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Five tool players (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

  • Delete, Subjective. The category refers to baseball players who can "hit for average, power, run well, field well and throw well". There's simply no way to quantify any of these terms in any real way. Unless you choose statistical marks to decide who can "run well" and "throw well" then you're going to have users adding and deleting players at random. And again, who gets to define what "throwing well" is? I say just ditch it, there are plenty of categories for other baseball awards and achievements, such as hitting 500 home runs in ones career Mglovesfun 00:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Latest thinking, that sounds a bit better but only rephrases the problem rather than solving it. Now you're simply going on the opinion one single journalist. Like the phrase that says "Mays was the first five-tool player" well there's a verifiable citation that I've seen on the web, but there might be 1000 journalists out there that disagree. To me it's still POV. Nothing personal but I'm thinking still delete. Mglovesfun 00:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I may just not understand the intent of WP:NPOV, but it was my understanding that documenting POV external to Wikipedia in an objective way is acceptable and even desirable. I thank you for your attention to the revision I made. Erechtheus 01:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I can smell the POV disputes coming if this one stays. — Dale Arnett 08:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Changing vote to weak keep after reading Erechtheus' comments. I can still see a chance of POV problems, but if the category is regularly monitored per Erechtheus, those may be minimized. However, I won't object if the final decision is to delete. — Dale Arnett 00:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • And what happens when Erechtheus leaves or decides to move on to something else? Depending on one person to ride shotgun does not seem like a good justification. Vegaswikian 00:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Isn't that a problem inherent in any article, category, or other item here? It's never a good idea to depend on one person to ride shotgun, which is why we have multiple editors with autonomy. As I understand it, the whole point of a category is to create a standard and apply it. That's what I'm trying to get the ball rolling on in this case. Erechtheus 01:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well editors can watch articles of interest. Editors can watch categories of interest. Editors, can not automatically watch entries in categories of interest. There are a lot of categories that fill up with articles that should be in a different category. Creating a category that seems to be likely to get articles that are not appropriate for it and would be hard for the average editor to quickly determine if those articles belong or don't is problematic. In most categories today any editor can determine with a quick check if the article belongs or not. Vegaswikian 05:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Twittenham 08:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I am the creator of the category. The intent for this category is to list players who have been described by verifiable and proper sources as being five tool players. There should be no POV dispute or NPOV problem with this. If there is a valid citation, the player is in. I have clarified the intent in the category itself. Erechtheus 00:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete I could argue both sides of this, but I think when it comes down to it, it's still POV. What if two credible sports authorities disagree on a player being "five-tool"? I understand the arguments about a standard, but the standard so far as I see it isn't strong enough. If there were some sort of mathematical standard to judge against I'd be all for it - this is baseball, after all. --Colage 04:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. What if two credible authorities disagree about anything? That should be a topic for the player article. As long as there is a viable source that can be cited to, the player is in. Let's remember the purpose of categories -- the five tool player designation is a controversial one, and this category will help users access players who are arguably five tool players to explore the issue. I think the fact that this is an enduring non-quantifiable baseball standard is what makes it so notable and worthy of coverage. We don't give up because of controversy around here -- if we did, there would be no article on George W. Bush or any other figure that attracts both vandalism and better reasoned opposing views.Erechtheus 17:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Nearly all of these players are already listed in the Five-tool player article. The rest should be added to the article before deletion of the category. The article is the better place for this, since it also shows the criticism for the term as well (retaining NPOV as suggested in comments above). - Jc37 19:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Nuanced subjects like this are better served by articles where they can be explained and referenced. - EurekaLott 03:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Children`s television shows

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 15:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Category:Children's television series. -- ProveIt (talk) 23:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Emerson Representatives

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, as Spam. -- ProveIt (talk) 23:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Middle-earth places

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The result of the debate was withdrawn --Kbdank71 15:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To match the rest of category:Middle-earth places.--Mike Selinker 23:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it makes sense for Star Wars, Pokemon and DC Comics to operate that way because their cats are named for the source material not the setting (world/continent/country). There're Category:Locations in the Honorverse and Category:Places of Morrowind more like this one, which is not called Tolkien places. ×Meegs 15:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I buy that logic. Okay, I withdraw this nomination, and I'll relist the other direction.--Mike Selinker 15:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Scriptwriters

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Category:Screenwriters. -- ProveIt (talk) 23:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Category People and self

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, Charmer Extraordinaire, All-star hunk, Universal Heartthrob and Part-time Wonderboy -- ProveIt (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Festivals of Nepal

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 15:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:Festivals in Nepal, convention of Category:Festivals by country. -- ProveIt (talk) 21:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does "in" suggest they may also take place elsewhere (e.g. in preceeding or subsequent years) whereas "of" suggest they are to be associated with Nepal, thereby to be preferred...?  David Kernow 17:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Culture of Nepal

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 15:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:Nepalese culture, convention of Category:Culture by nationality. I would support a grand rename to match this format, but having one different from the others makes no sense. -- ProveIt (talk) 21:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Superbitches

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting idea, but overly subjective. Unclear inclusion criteria. -- ProveIt (talk) 21:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Imposters of Doc glasgow

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The result of the debate was found deleted --Kbdank71 15:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Imposters of Doc glasgow.

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Category:United States state and territorial flag images

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The result of the debate was Rename. Andrew c 02:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:United States state and territorial flag images to Category:Images of United States state and territorial flags

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Category:Fairtrade settlements

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fairtrade settlements (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

  • note that the editor who nominated this category for deletion did not necessarily assume good faith and nominated it after being asked to join mediation after their actions on another matter. This revision of their talk page shows a formal warning for incivility. The current revision has been wholly edited to remove this prior to their statement that they have left. While this will not necessarily have a bearing on the outcome of the consensus here it is likely that this category was nominated in a hostile frame of mind, one where the best decisions are not always made. In short this category is the victim of a set of disputed edits elsewhere. Fiddle Faddle 14:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this absurd category. It is misleading because it applies to councils more than to cities, and it is ultra-trivial even in relation to the councils. Wimstead 21:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Though the stated conditions under which this category was nominated concern me, Merge to List of settlements awarded Fairtrade Town status in the United Kingdom and then Delete the category. - Jc37 19:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete It is completely irrelevant why it was nominated as all nominations of bad categories are welcome and there are many categories which deserve to be deleted but don't get nominated as it is a lot easier to create one than to nominate one for deletion. Golfcam 20:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Canadian baseball players who surpass 100 RBI's

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The result of the debate was listify and delete --Kbdank71 15:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Canadian baseball players who surpass 100 RBI's (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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category:Games magazines to category:Game magazines

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 15:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To avoid confusion with GAMES Magazine. I'd also be fine with category:Gaming magazines.--Mike Selinker 16:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, consumer magazines and student magazines are those for consumers and students, not about them; the comparison to hobby magazines is clearer. Muddying the issue, there's Category:Sports magazines. MisfitToys 21:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would also support Category:Gaming magazines -- ProveIt (talk)
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Category:History of United Kingdom literatures

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The result of the debate was Rename. Andrew c 02:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:History of United Kingdom literatures to Category:History of literature in the United Kingdom

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Category:Contemporary history of the United Kingdom

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 15:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Contemporary history of the United Kingdom into Category:History of the United Kingdom

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Category:Living child actors & Category:Living teenage actors

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Foreign words

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The result of the debate was rename/merge to Category:Words by language --Kbdank71 15:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Foreign words into Category:English words of foreign origin

If someone is going to provide and rationale for the status quo, let me tell them that vast majority of contributors are not expert linguists and eventually screw up any smart division, with so many foreign words here to come. E.g., Category:Latin words is an vast abyss or abysmal vastness. `'mikka (t) 08:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Illuminati

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The result of the debate was rename/merge to Category:Marvel Comics Illuminati members --Kbdank71 15:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Illuminati to Category:Marvel Illuminati

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Category:Polish music competitions

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 15:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Polish music competitions to Category:Music competitions in Poland

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Category:USHL players

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 15:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:USHL players to Category:United States Hockey League players

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Category:Former child actors

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Former child actors (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Category:Sittacene

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 14:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Sittacene (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Category:Online games

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The result of the debate was relisted here, internet games was not tagged for deletion. --Kbdank71 14:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Online games into Category:Internet games

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Category:Khyber Teaching Hospital

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Review and convert to article. -- ProveIt (talk) 06:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Wikipedians by technology

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 14:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Two templates: Wikipedians who use X, and Wikipedians who play X (games only). I didn't like the past tense on category:Wikipedian home computer owners 1975-1990 or its subcategories (as there may well be current users of the Commodore line, say), so I'm for putting them in with the other systems. I haven’t touched Wikipedians by website, Wikipedians by software, or Wikipedian programmers yet.--Mike Selinker 04:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. to category:Wikipedians who use 1600x1200 screen resolution
  2. to category:Wikipedians who use computers with AMD processors (computers with) - You use the computer, the computer uses the processor : )
  3. to category:Wikipedians who use Bluetooth technology
  4. to category:Wikipedians who use the Sega Dreamcast (use vs play) - one uses the device to play games. Though the cat itself says "own" in the description, so perhaps use -> own.
  5. to category:Wikipedians who use dual monitor configurations
  6. to category:Wikipedians who use personal computers
  7. to category:Wikipedians who use personal digital assitants
  8. to category:Wikipedians who use Powerbook G4 notebook computers
  9. to category:Wikipedians who use computers with Intel processors
  10. to category:Wikipedians who use Zen Nanos or MuVo N200s - They seem to be roughly the same thing with a branding difference?
  11. Oppose renaming category:Wikipedians who contribute in cybercafés (in -> from, would be fine). A user doesn't use the building as one uses a pencil. I suppose that you could say category:Wikipedians who frequent cybercafes but that's not how the cat is defined.
  12. to category:Wikipedians who use Macintosh computers
  13. to category:Wikipedians by computer brand,
And I have to agree: You deserve thanks for taking on this task (looks around to see if I happen to have a barnstar or something in my pocket somewhere : ) - Jc37 20:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again. I amended all nominations to reflect your suggestions, except the "play Dreamcast" one (all other videogame systems are "play"). I'm withdrawing the cybercafe one; it seems qualitatively different from the rest. I also don't know how you want the "computer brand" populated, so I left that one alone.--Mike Selinker 23:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I still am in favour of in -> from for the cybercafe cat name. Perhaps a separate listing?
I standardized the naming of each. Hope this helps. - Jc37 23:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Citytv network shows

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The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 14:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Citytv network shows to Category:CHUM television shows

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Category:Consumer electronics companies

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The result of the debate was Rename. Andrew c 01:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Consumer electronics companies to Category:Consumer electronics retailers

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Category:Fictional rivalries

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The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 14:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional rivalries to Category:Fictional rivals

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Category:XBLA games

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 14:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:XBLA games to Category:Xbox Live Arcade games

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Category:XBLA 360 games

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 14:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:XBLA 360 games to Category:Xbox 360 Live Arcade games

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Category:Archaeological sites in Britain to Category:Archaeological sites in the United Kingdom

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 14:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

as per naming convention Mal 05:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Create Category:Archaeological sites in the United Kingdom.
  2. Add Category:Archaeological sites in England, Category:Archaeological sites in Scotland, Category:Archaeological sites in Wales, Category:Archaeological sites in England, and Category:Archaeological sites in Ireland (and any other cats appropriate) as sub-categories to that.
  3. Rename Category:Archaeological sites in Britain to Category:Archaeological sites in Ancient Britain, and add it to Category:Archaeological sites in the United Kingdom. - Jc37 19:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support rename to ...UK, but oppose strongly Category:Archaeological sites in Ancient Britain. Ancient Britian is not a place. Any articles there should go in the appropriate subcategory by place Category:Archaeological sites in England etc. We have separate time categories such as Category:Late Antiquity, Category:Roman Britain, Category:Neolithic, Category:Mesolithic, etc. already. Bejnar 04:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:People who exploit the deaths of dead American soldiers in political advertisements

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The result of the debate was DELETE utter rubbish. -Doc 13:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People who exploit the deaths of dead American soldiers in political advertisements (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Category:Kurdish inhabited regions

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The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 14:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Kurdish inhabited regions (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

  • Delete, Hopelessly pov category with a vaigue definition (the traditional Kurdish-inhabited area is not a verifiable/reliable region (by whoes standards will we determine borders?)). A similar nom was a delete. Two previous nominations of this very category (nom 1, nom 2) was a no consensus. --Cat out 01:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • If kept or no consensus, rename to Category:Regions with a Kurdish majority.  David Kernow 02:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC), converted to request 17:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as per previous discussions. Calsicol 09:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but Rename per David Kernow; for a stateless people whose traditional domain is divided among several modern states, such a category is useful. The analogy of Hispanic inhabited regions is inapt. "Hispanics", however defined, do not constitute a single stateless ethnic group with a traditional range, any more than "Europeans", "Muslims", "Blondes" or "Females". The Kurds constitute, as few other ethnic groups do, a stateless population that is separated by modern borders; a similar usage is made for Catalans, where regions of traditional Catalan regions now in France are categorized under Catalonian as well as French categories. Carlossuarez46 16:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no defined kurdish region though. Some would draw the map to include certain cities while others do not. This category is as redundent as "Blonde inhabited region". Hispanics are stateless in the US. They do not own any of the states right? They were seperated from mexico in a sense. --Cat out 17:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Wrong-O Kitty-Cat! Hispanics, however you define us, are no more stateless than French-Americans, German-Americans, or any other hyphenated-Americans are. If Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Iraq would give Kurdistan its independence this category might be unnecessary because we could all look on a map and know what Kurdistan means. However, use of WP to continue the cultural genocide of the Kurds is not proper. Carlossuarez46 17:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    So where is this "Hispanicistan"? Nevermind. Aren't Native americans a stateless peoples? Shouldn't we tag their "traditional regions" (all of US and parts of canada and even mexico) under a grand category? How about Aztechs or romans? Why is being stateless in any way relevant to how we categorise?
    This is a cfd, a "cultural gencide" can't happen here. This isnt a matter of "culural genocide" or your political opinons (I could care less for both of them). The category is simply redudent and an article is the proper way to talk about where kurds are a majority (which itself is a seperate dispute as no demographical data exists).
    --Cat out 17:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into an article, and Delete. See the introduction in Navajo Nation for a similar example. - Jc37 19:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I had put Milas in as a joke and it is still there after four months. Cretanforever
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Category:Fictional Toilets

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The result of the debate was speedy delete flush Tim! 08:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional Toilets (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Category:Nikaya schools

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The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus (articles moved back) --Kbdank71 13:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Replaced by the more suitably named category of Early Buddhist Schools, which will be more easily understood. Nikaya Buddhism is a very rarely used term, with which many people are unfamiliar. Early Buddhist Schools rings a bell immediately, and is frequently used.Greetings, Sacca 07:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to already be deleted? - Jc37 19:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody moved all of the contents out and into Category:Early Buddhist Schools.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Much breath is spent by Buddhists arguing over which school is genuinely more antique, with the implication that this would make that school more right. It is undesireable to take sides by declaring some schools "early" to the exclusion of others. I will agree that "Nikaya Buddhism", despite having the advantage of being quite neutral, is not a very familiar term. That said, I don't think "Early Buddhist Schools" is really significantly better known; it's only recognition factor is that people know the words "early", "Buddhist", and "school" individually.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • These arguments between schools in Buddhism are not about the 'oldness' of the schools, but about whether the actual teachings of the various schools represent the whole of Buddhism. I suggest we look at the historical side, and we can clearly see that the early schools are in fact the early schools, so why try to hide this fact by giving it an unknown name that nobody is familiar with? Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism is perfectly open to the fact that the early schools are in fact the earliest schools in that these schools were there before the Mahayana and Vajrayana. They are also open to the fact that some of Mahayana teachings are in fact new and not contained in the early schools - both these facts are in fact a fundamental part of the teaching of Mahayana/Vajrayana. I would just like to keep things simple. If we can't call the early schools early any more because of some imagined sensitivities concerning the 'oldness' of the schools, we can indeed only give them strange names like Nikaya (and forget about the Agamas, I suppose ?).
    • Also the list of the early schools are contained in the article Early Buddhist Schools, and it was never tried to remove this information from there, and this information being there did not generate any arguments or discussions. The reason is that this infomation is simply not disputed, it's a historical fact recognized by scholars and all buddhist schools. Also the article 'early buddhist schools' appears as a link on the 'buddhism' template; again no arguments about it, it's just not an issue, and now readers understand what is being discussed.
    • Greetings, Sacca 06:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This subject has been discussed a bit in the past on Talk:Early Buddhist Schools, mostly just with myself and Sacca as the participants. The problems with the term "early Buddhist schools" are two: first, the term "early" here is defined fairly arbitrarily to exclude the Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna schools. If one were to use a different date, say 800 CE, then we would include almost all of the major Indian Mahāyāna schools, the Nyingma of Tibet, early Zen, etc., etc. The second problem with "early" is that it implies that the subjects are static, i.e. that they are inherently early and did not participate in the subsequent development of history. With regard to the extinct ancient schools of India, this may be an acceptable simplification, but it is misleading when used to describe the surviving Theravada school, particularly as this forms a key part of that school's polemic.
Incidentally, I'm not sure where you got the idea that, "Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism is perfectly open to the fact that the early schools are in fact the earliest schools in that these schools were there before the Mahayana and Vajrayana." Certainly, reading their literature, one gets the impression that they think their doctrinues came out of the mouth of the Buddha himself.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 04:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I feel your interest in the early buddhist schools schools is very much based in a defensive attitude, of trying to prevent any possible (misguided) criticism towards Mahayana or Vajrayana. But there are many reasons for which people might want to group the early schools. Some of the early schools themselves made a list of the schools, after this it was done by the Mahayana (who excluded themselves naturally), and they called the early schools 'Hinayana' (which translates as 'the low vehicle'). Recently the term Nikaya Buddhism came into being as a name for the filosophy behind the early schools, at least that's your version of it. The early schools have also been referred to as early buddhism. The commonality between these terms is that they all refer to these early buddhist schools. At the time (350 BC to about 50 AD) they would in all probability have seen themselves as 'the buddhist schools', since their commonality is that they all try to represent Buddha's teaching, as opposed to the Brahmanical schools or the Jain schools.

Mahayana does not claim it was present as school before the 1st century AD. Thus its traditions state some scriptures were hidden or kept underground (for about at least 500 years) by some dragons, and these scriptures were then taken up to the human world around the 1st century AD, so that the Mahayana teaching could be introduced to humanity. So that's how Mahayana claims it is a later school, about 500 years after Buddha. And that also explains why Mahayana made this long list of 20 different Hinayana schools (early buddhist schools), which were already existing at the time when Mahayana came into being. Generally, the Mahayana scriptures were written into Buddha's mouth at least 500 years after the death of Buddha, or at least that's the accepted opinion amongst scholars. They see the story of the dragons as a myth, not reflecting the truth of what really happened.

Vajrayana states that the early schools were part of the 'first turning' of the teaching of Buddha, Mahayana was the second turning, and Vajrayana itself was he third turning. These turnings happened in time, so the early schools came first as the first turning, after that the Mahayana as the second turning, and the Vajrayana came third. This is basic Vajrayana, as I'm sure you are aware, and the Vajrayana tradition take pride in being the third school or turning, since they believe it's the best and most complete version of the three. You see, your defensive attiude is not even necessary.

Your last remark (starting with Incidentally...) is quite clever, but also misleading. I'm sure you're aware of the dating of the Mahayana scriptures (after 1st century CE, most are well into 2nd, 3rd and later centuries), but reading your sentence very closely I can see you avoid saying anything definite.Greetings, Sacca 08:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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