Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1912 suspension of Ty Cobb/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 10 April 2024 [1].

1912 suspension of Ty Cobb

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 15:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... Baseball player Ty Cobb's suspension for going into the stands and beating up a fan. His teammates took his part and refused to play, which resulted in one of the great mismatches of all time, a group of replacement players and the manager and coaches against baseball's World Champions, which went about as you'd expect.Wehwalt (talk) 15:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Can you find a way to work the bit about Cobb being the CF of the Tigers into the first sentence? Currently the very perfunctory first sentence "During the 1912 season (what sort of season?), Ty Cobb (who's he?) was suspended for ten days" reads very oddly without any prior context.

Ty Cobb is among the best-known baseball players of all time, but for his hitting, rather than as a center fielder (a position he played for only part of his career. Still, I've done as you suggest.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Aided by Connie Mack, the Philadelphia owner/manager, they did so" - "they" should be "he" (Jennings) per the previous sentence

Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"teams put additional security into their stadium's" => "teams put additional security into their stadiums'" (the teams did not all share one stadium)

Done slightly differently.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"to attend all four games of the series between the Detroit Tigers and the New York Yankees." - no need to relink Tigers

OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"stating they would not play" => "stating that they would not play"
"five sandlot baseball players" - what's a "sandlot player"? Is there an appropriate link?

Linked.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"with three hits (two on bunts)" - link bunt

Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"on an of the attempted stolen base" - this seems a bit mangled

Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"tried throwing Home Run Baker a fastball, who" => "tried throwing a fastball to Baker, who"

I've kept the nickname but otherwise done as you suggest.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"managed only a walk" - link walk

Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"then Collins bunted a ball" - ah, there's the link for bunt. Move it to the first usage

Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"each of which drive in a run" - wrong tense

Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"urged them got go back to work" - this seems a bit mangled --

OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's everything. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prose issues

I remember reading about this in Strange But True Baseball Stories or something like that when I was a kid, and as such I am pleased to see that we have an article about it. It might make a great movie (yeah, we think fans only started doing things like this since the pandemic). However, some of the prose sounds like it would be more appropriate in a book of that nature, or a baseball history magazine, than an encyclopedia article written under an NPOV policy. And there are other issues:

"By the fourth inning of the fourth game, on May 15, 1912, with the stream of insults continuing and questioning Cobb's racial ancestry, the hot-tempered Southerner had had enough, and raced into the stands, punching and kicking Lucker, who due to an industrial accident had lost eight fingers and could not defend himself." First, there's "hot-tempered Southerner" ... doesn't seem right in Wikivoice (Yes, I know Cobb was infamous for his temper, but this way it reads like a false title more at home in hack journalism). Second, just look at this sentence and how it's practically on its knees begging to be broken up (Pro tip: If you've got two clauses in your sentence starting with "and", it's a run-on sentence).

".. even so mild-mannered a player as Cy Young" Tone issues again.

"Cobb's patience, never one of his outstanding character traits ..." Again, is this the Wikipedia way to say this?

I may have some more things to point out later, but this will do for now. Daniel Case (talk) 19:45, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel Case, encyclopedic descriptions of things that involve emotion can be an issue. I've changed the first two. On the third, the source says, "By the fourth game, May 15, Cobb’s patience, a fine filament under the best of circumstances, was wearing thin." I think it worthwhile to be able to explain that Cobb was not a patient man. The reader should be on notice that Lucker was yelling insults at someone with a short temper and (as is related elsewhere) someone known to be violent. Thoughts?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your improvements are better. Daniel Case (talk) 21:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've cut it to "Cobb's patience was nearly exhausted."

OK. Some other things:

"By 1912, rowdyism in Major League Baseball (MLB) stadiums ..." I am not sure we should use the formalized term as the entity we have long known as MLB did not exist legally until earlier this century—it was the two leagues. Would that term have been in common use at that time? Maybe we should just say "major league stadiums". And was that fan unruliness exclusive to just big-league ball? IIRC baseball at every level at the time had that issue ... they had Ladies' Day for a reason.

The source discusses only the majors. From what I recall from my research for earlier articles, one of the things Ban Johnson pledged in founding the AL was a family-friendly environment, which was one of the reasons he was so anxious to get rid of John McGraw. There doesn't seem to have been much difference between the leagues by 1912.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And while we're on that, would "stadium" have been appropriate for the time, either? "Stadium" makes me think of the 50,000+-seat venues also used for football and rock concerts, where the announcer's voice audibly echoes once or twice à la that scene in Airplane!, that didn't become common until about the mid-'60s or so. Back then, as with both games discussed in this article, baseball was played in "parks" or "fields", per that George Carlin routine. Perhaps "major-league ballparks" is the best way to say it?

Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it necessary to say that Jennings was from Pennsylvania? The only way I see his geographic origins being relevant is if we are trying to subtly justify Cobb's actions not only on the fact of Lucker being an asshole (which, by today's standards too, he was) but by Lucker having picked that specific way of getting under Cobb's skin (which by today's standards of course makes Cobb look even worse, but then again who yells things like this at ballplayers now? This was just a classic "ESH" situation). I think the quotes are enough to show what Jennings understood without needing to tell us he was from the North (and also, it is assuming a lot that Jennings, from Eastern Pennsylvania coal country, was unaware before his baseball career that "half-nigger" wasn't fighting words in many situations ... I think there were very few places in fin de siécle America where people would have been astounded that a man would be set off as much as Cobb was that day (as indeed Ban Johnson seemed to be)).

I've deleted it. Jennings, of course, spent years in Baltimore, a Southern city by the standards of the times. How to describe the insults and the reaction by Cobb and by others is something I'm trying to be very careful with in this article.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, even today, Baltimore is sort of where North and South meet (weren't the stands at Memorial Stadium segregated until '64?) He had to have understood how Cobb would take this. Daniel Case (talk) 21:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Despite Cobb being thrown out in the fourth inning, Detroit beat New York, 8–4." Despite? Somehow, not with Sam Crawford, another future Hall of Famer, in the Tigers' lineup, I don't think they were absolutely helpless with Cobb out of the game. It might provide better context to know what the score was when Cobb was ejected. I mean, if the Tigers were down 4-0 and came back to win, yeah, that might mean something, but if they were up 8-0 and the Yankees fell short trying to come back, well, so what? Certainly this information is available somewhere ...

The box score is here. They were up 3-2 when Cobb was kicked out (the top of the fourth), fell behind 4-3 in the bottom of the inning and then scored three in the top of the fifth and two more in the ninth. I've cut it to simply the final score.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to know, if we could, what Lucker's opinion of Cobb actually was, as expressed to the baseball press, even in paraphrase (I half think it was some variation of that modern jerkass self-justification, "I thought it would be funny ...").

He denied doing more than good-natured joshing, and says Cobb got the wrong guy. Of course, the secondary sources are unanimous against him, but I now give him his say.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would also be interesting to have some idea, now that I've added the inflation templates, how serious the fines were to Cobb and the team. How big a hit was it/would it have been? Because a $1,500 fine, per the inflation adjustment, would be something a modern player would put on his credit card before going back home/to the hotel or airport after the game (and for that reason, naturally, MLB would probably fine a modern player into six figures for doing something like this) What was Cobb's salary at the time? How many games worth of road gate was the team's proposed fine equivalent to? It had to be a serious hit for them to put on a replacement team that got creamed as an alternative.

I got Cobb's salary ($9,000). Thus he was fined not quite a game's pay. One of the SABR article says "Tigers owner Frank Navin anticipated that the players might refuse to take the field without Cobb. He also knew that a forfeit would carry a $5,000 fine, which in 1912 was more than many players made in a year, and potentially result in the loss of the franchise." That's as far as the sources seem to go into the finances of this. Cobb was already wealthy by 1912 and became more so, therefore the fine, even if he had been required to pay it, was nothing to him.

I remember reading that "Maharg" was actually "Graham"—for some reason (probably not wanting to be associated forever with this farce beyond the money). Is there anything in the sources on this?

His SABR biography dispels that myth.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay ... more evidence, as if it were needed, that '70s baseball books meant for younger readers are not reliable sources. Especially when mistily remembered.

Of course, all the SABR piece proves to me (not that it necessitates a change in the article) is that Maharg was born with that name. I do think it's quite possible that at some point some ancestor reversed the "Graham" spelling as "Maharg" is not really that common a name (and "Mahar" is the more frequent Irish last name). It was also not unknown for people to significantly change the spellings of their last names before the 20th century in order to evade prosecution or debt collection, especially when relocating (For instance, I have ancestors who were part of Clan McGregor in Scotland; when they all found themselves proclaimed after the Battle of Glen Fruin they took the name Agor so that they might live to die natural deaths, and it is still used in the family today). I suspect in Maharg's day this might have been more widely understood. Daniel Case (talk) 22:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I admit to reading the same books and thinking the same thing. And I agree, such things were common. Wehwalt (talk) 22:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This might be somewhat OR-ish, but I do think this counts as the first MLB strike of any kind. The Indians' action in the endnote was really more of a walkout ... they chose not to play that game to go to their teammate's funeral. Whereas the Tigers' players set a condition for their return (they didn't win, but they did make the effort), as most workers on strike do.

Only the one source gives credit to the Indians for the first strike, so I'm going to lose the footnote and go with the majority.

Daniel Case (talk) 06:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've done or responded to all those now.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I took the trouble of changing "partisan" to "partial" ... that seems to fit better as the former word is really about politics or debates, not what was going on here. Daniel Case (talk) 05:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Daniel Case (talk) 05:35, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PCN02WPS

"accident about 1910, and subsequently did odd" → remove comma
"During pregame fielding practice Cobb muffed a fly ball" → I would say to link "muffed" but I don't think there is a good thing to link it to (other than Muffed punt, which is football-specific). Maybe for clarity for non-sports-familiar readers we should change "muffed" to "dropped" or something?

Linked to the entry in glossary of baseball terms

"perhaps Davy Jones, or Sam Crawford" → I think the comma after "Jones" is unneeded
"Cobb was kicked out of the game, but was allowed to remain" → remove comma
Consider linking "Georgia congressional delegation" to United States congressional delegations from Georgia

I guess, though it seems pretty far afield to me.

"regarding his ancestry, and stated that" → remove comma
"Jennings and his coaches Deacon McGuire and Joe Sugden" → Sugden links to the wrong person
"shirts off their backs and they were signed to one-day" → "they" seems superfluous here

I think if you don't say "they", there is a risk of confusion as to who is meant.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

two-time defending World Series champions" → link World Series
"the future Hall of Famers" → link "Hall of Famers" to National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum
"In the top of the first inning" → "top", as it is currently linked, is not anchored to anything in the Glossary page; recommend changing the section in the link to "Top of the inning", which is an entry in the glossary
"with three hits" → link Hit (baseball)

It is linked further up in the article as a statistical category in which Cobb led the league

link fastball on first mention
Ditto for foul ball
"walked to load the bases" → link Glossary of baseball terms#bases loaded
"Maharg was unable" → this sentence is a little long; at one of the commas, I would recommend breaking the sentence into two
"Catcher Lapp threw to first in an attempt to pick off Maney" → link pickoff
"bases-loaded double, and was himself" → sort of awkward wording, recommend a full stop after "double" and beginning the next sentence with "He was himself"
"who was picked off first base" → reads like there might be a word missing, perhaps "picked off at first base", or "of first base"?

No, that's correct. See for example Herb Washington.

"Since Sunday baseball was illegal" → "Sunday baseball" redirects to "Sunday sporting events", you can anchor the link to the "Baseball" section
"Detroit had a record of 13–14" → unless there is a prior instance of a record being given, add {{Win-loss record}} here
"won their next four games, but finished the season" → remove comma
"assistant trainer for the Philadelphia Phillies, and was allowed" → remove comma
"In 1919, he was one" → I think you can get rid of one of the two instances of "1919" in this sentence - my recommendation would be to just start the sentence "He was one..." and let the "1919 World Series" link stay intact and tell the reader what year it happened

I enjoy reading about old sports so this was an enjoyable one. Nice work! If you've got the time, I have an old sports-related FAC here that could really use some eyes. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll look at it. All done or commented on here. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Everything looks good, happy to support the nom. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 23:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review

Image placement and licence seems OK, one image lacks ALT text. Are The Sun (New York City) and Statmuse a reliable source? Bleacher Report doesn't seem to be a very good source. Everything else seems fine. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Sun was a serious newspaper, according to our article on it. Statmuse is reliable for statistics. I've eliminated Bleacher Report. All three images have alt text. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments

Bak, 1994, needs a publisher location. (Dallas)

Actually, I intended to omit locations from all books. I don't consider them helpful in this day and age.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:LEADLENGTH could the lead be condensed to 2 or 3 paragraphs; the current 4 are all very short.

OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could the lead be condensed. I think it could be condensed with little loss of information.

OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The replacement players in the Tigers dugout". Apostrophe?

I think there is no apostrophe. See for example, this.

I am unsure if I am being gently ribbed. Leaving aside the stylistic title, from page 11 of the same book "from inside the Tigers' dugout": note the "' ". Gog the Mild (talk) 23:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to "Detroit dugout".--Wehwalt (talk) 10:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"in the aftermath of Cobb's suspension, almost all teams provided ushers." Assuming "ushers " refers to Usher (occupation), how did this reduce heckling? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. I think in the sport context, the role of an usher is broader than that. To quote from the article you linked, "Ushers are also expected to help with security and to ensure that only people with proper authority have access to backstage areas. Ushers also monitor the crowds and can summon security when needed".--Wehwalt (talk) 22:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the point, but can we convey this to a non-North American reader somehow. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source is not very vocal on this point, so I've excluded the word "ushers" and simply said they complied with Johnson's request. Wehwalt (talk) 11:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.