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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1964 Illinois House of Representatives election/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 27 January 2024 [1].

1964 Illinois House of Representatives election

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Nominator(s): Elli (talk | contribs) 19:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the time in 1964 when Illinois elected their entire State House at-large. In a twist no one expected, politicians played politics, leading to a redistricting deadlock and this fascinating election, the only one of its type. This is my first FA nomination and I hope y'all enjoy reading and reviewing it as much as I enjoyed researching and writing it :) I'm on holiday break the next few weeks so I should have plenty of time to respond to comments; also happy to provide digital copies of the offline sources if anyone needs them. Elli (talk | contribs) 19:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Airship's flyby

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Welcome to FAC. Quick note: is it possible to format that lengthy table in the analysis section so that it is collapsible? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure; did that now. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Generalissima's review

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I'll take a look at this and see what problems or issues I can find.

image review

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Eddie891

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  • I'll have a read through hopefully in the next week ish. Eddie891 Talk Work 18:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " it did not provide any method of enforcement" What would a method of enforcement been? Do you mean it didn't specify when/how the redistricting would occur?
    • Basically, if the legislature didn't redistrict, there was no recourse in the courts, and no other mechanism for redistricting to take place. So, the legislature could choose not to redistrict and they would not be forced to. I've added "should the legislature fail to do so" to the end of the sentence -- hopefully that's good enough? Not sure how to phrase this best without being clunky. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with courts continuing to allow this practice" What does this mean? How did the courts 'allow it?
  • "A constitutional convention, approved by voters in 1918, aimed to deal with the issue" Where does this appear in the source? It's also not clear to me which issue you mean by 'the issue' here-- the broader lack of redistricting, or just the under-representation of Cook County. I see "allowing cook county representation in the State House of representatives on the Basis of Voting Strength" which would, I guess, address the latter but not the former
    • The relevant part of the source is on page 292: "...the 1921 general assembly was content to allow the constitutional convention then meeting to wrestle with the difficult problem of representation. Voters overwhelmingly rejected the proposed constitution in 1922...". Elli (talk | contribs) 03:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a reason Keogh is red-linked and Fergus is not?
  • "for periodic reapportionment of the Senate, but it did provide that for the House's 59 districts." periodic being?
  • "in one legislative chamber, but limit its representation in the other, but these proposals died due to strong bipartisan opposition from downstate politicians." I don't believe you've mentioned or established another chamber yet.
  • "for if the legislature failed to redistrict." was there a timeframe on this?
  • "have districts that would cross include parts of both Chicago and its suburbs" Maybe just "...would include parts..."
  • "Democrats responded on the same day with a plan to instead have districts" I think the relevance of this is predicated on understanding that democrats are concentrated in cities, so would have been in favor of this, but that would not be clear to someone just reading the article-- if that was the case in Chicago at this time
    • Yeah, this was the case. I guess the thing is, it's so self-evident to political observers that it's often not described explicitly? So mentioning that this would give Democrats a political advantage would be SYNTHy given that the sources I'm using don't explicitly say it (though obviously a party isn't going to propose a plan that wouldn't give them some advantage). So not sure how best to deal with this. Elli (talk | contribs) 04:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "that would only remove one district from there, at the expense of a district in Lake County" meaning that Lake County lost a district, or a district that would have been added to Lake County was not?
  • "deliberate under-representation of Republican areas" I don't think it's clear what is being referred to as 'Republican areas'
    • The area here is particularly Lake County. Newspapers from the time mention this, though I haven't found one that makes the connection that the secondary source I'm using does (while that secondary source doesn't explicitly mention Lake County here). Elli (talk | contribs) 04:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of which Kerner appointed five of each " the "of which...of each" phrasing is a bit awkward. I would maybe rephrase to "Each party's state central committee nominated ten candidates for the redistricting commission. Kerner appointed five from each party on August 14, 1963"
  • "Starting on November 14, the Republicans on the commission began boycotting the meetings" raising the questions: When did meetings begin? How often were they?
    • Sadly there isn't great secondary coverage on this. I think most of the meetings received some coverage in newspapers but I'm not sure if there's an easy way to find out how many they were. They started after the commission was appointed in August. Elli (talk | contribs) 04:56, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "two days before the final deadline" consider adding something along the lines of "... to agree on a map"
  • "party to nominate 118 candidates for the 177 seats available." So was there no consideration for third party candidates?
    • There was, though it wasn't initially expected for third parties to run; they needed 25k signatures to do so (see this newspaper source cited later in the article. However, coverage about the election procedure doesn't mention the signature requirement, presumably because no one was seriously expecting a third-party run, and it was obvious that both major parties would qualify. Elli (talk | contribs) 05:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • You never state the date of the election in the body of the article
  • Maybe just "stating that they still believed they had a chance of victory" -> "believing they still had a chance of victory"
  • "were reported on November 26" Do you know why the delay?
  • "claiming that there were more votes cast than voters registered in five precincts" did they ever decide whether this was actually the case?
  • "releasing the DuPage results only hours before legislators were sworn in" Were vote counts not typically released?
    • Nope! The results couldn't be sent to the secretary of state for certification due to the injunction. I think some partial results were released, but not in an official way if that makes sense? Elli (talk | contribs) 05:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • How do the sources determine that "The results were strongly influenced by endorsements... [endorsements] were mostly responsible for the results"? That seems like something that would be hard to quantify
    • The results almost perfectly correlated with newspaper endorsements, and didn't really correlate with anything else. The sources on this are mainly just one guy's analysis (whose writing I've used as a source for much of this article), but he seems pretty reliable and there aren't any other theories mentioned in other sources that I've found. Elli (talk | contribs) 05:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it might be good to somewhere explicitly state the seat balance after the election
  • "The resulting maps were relatively fair to both parties, though caused a significant shift of power from downstate to the Chicago area" feels like there's maybe a missing word in here?
  • The two paragraphs beginning "The legislative process was not successful for redistricting" feel only tangentially related to this article. Could maybe be condensed?
  • "In 2000, Pat Quinn" maybe define who Pat Quinn is?

Interesting article. That's a first pass. Not wedded to any of these points at all. Eddie891 Talk Work 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Eddie891: thanks again for your review! I've implemented many of your suggestions and explained my thinking regarding the rest. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, only a couple of responses which I'll put here:
  • Suggest adding the process for third party to make the slate, as you later say "that they had failed to gather enough signatures"
  • "legislature was required to redistrict the state, it did not provide any method of enforcement should the legislature fail to do so" Maybe just "...it did not provide any method of enforcement if the legislature did not"
  • I can't think of a great way to handle the Chicago/Democratic thing without being synth-y, so probably best to leave it out.
  • RE: "The two paragraphs beginning "The legislative process was not successful for redistricting" feel only tangentially related to this article. Could maybe be condensed?" I'm not sure why the sentences about happenings in 1991 or 2001 are really relevant here at all.
    • I get where you're coming from here. The problem is that it's relevant to mention the failure through the entire period (I definitely want to keep the "The failure of the legislature to redistrict in every cycle between 1965 and 2001" sentence), and if I only mentioned the 1990s and 2000s failures in passing, I think it could leave a reader wanting ("what happened in 2001 that caused the legislature to fail?"). I agree that it's a bit detailed for something that isn't super closely related but I don't see a better way of doing it. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:33, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to have another read through before supporting, but I doubt much else will come up Eddie891 Talk Work 20:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddie891: Think I've addressed all of your comments now :) Elli (talk | contribs) 20:44, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Vami

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I will also review this shortly. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 18:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Will wait for replies to Eddie's comments (don't want to reinvent the wheel). –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vami IV: I've replied to all of his comments now. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:59, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vami IV: I've addressed all of your comments now, though there are a few that aren't totally resolved (where I would like your opinion). Thanks for the review btw :) Elli (talk | contribs) 18:25, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
Everything else

All my comments have been addressed. Pleased to support now. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 20:58, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hurricanehink

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Drive-by reviewing. This one intrigued me. It's a lot of small quibbles that add up to an oppose from me (for now). Conditional support.

Lead
  • You should probably wikilink "redistrict" in its first usage in the first paragraph of the lead.
  • Speaking of leaking, I feel like the lead needs to mention U.S. state at least somewhere. It takes until the end of the lead to mention the US, and not that "Illinois" is terribly ambiguous, but I feel like the country would be listed if it was in any other country.
  • Maybe something like:
  • The U.S. state of Illinois held an election on November 3, 1964, for all 177 members of the state's House of Representatives for the 74th Illinois General Assembly, alongside the other statewide and federal elections.
  • That way it includes the U.S. state link, and it removes one usage of "Illinois". It doesn't have to be exactly this obviously, but something along these lines would be helpful to include the country that it took place in. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:13, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There were expectations of widespread voter confusion before the election, and a high number of undervotes, but this did not happen. " - just to pick this apart a bit, there's no mention of the word "confuse" or "confusion" anywhere else in the article but the lead. So, I gotta ask, is there a source for that part? I see the undervote part mentioned later, when it says:
  • Before the election, the sheer number of ballots to be voted on led to predictions of a high number of undervotes in the House of Representatives election, but post-election analysis revealed that this did not take place."
I see that this is sourced, but I also notice that a lot of the lead was written in passive voice, and this sentence doesn't say who even made these predictions. Pundits? Election officials? This is me being picky, but it's something that I'm looking out for, now that I finished the lead and did a spotcheck.
  • The main source I'm using for this article (and for this claim in particular) doesn't go into detail on this, unfortunately. I've tried to improve the phrasing in the lead (think it's reasonable to infer from the source that at least some of these predictions were by pundits). Could use more improvement but not sure what to go with; feels wrong to leave this detail out entirely though it's less clear than I'd like it to be. Elli (talk | contribs) 00:20, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you have any quotes from election officials? That could be a useful way to convey the confusion. That's why I had such issue with passive voice. It's a way of getting around saying something without saying who said it. If this election happened nowadays, I'd expect a similar level of confusion. I still take issue because technically the bit about "Some pundits predicted significant voter confusion" isn't sourced. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:13, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Background
  • I got a bit confused for a minute in "1960 redistricting cycle" over the year. You first mention 1962, then 1964, then 1960 census, then "April 23", without any reference to the year. I believe it's 1963, but please double check.
  • "The commission faced harsh criticism for its failure to agree on a map, with particularly strong criticism directed at the Democratic members for insisting on more Chicago-based districts than the city's population warranted." - this I think could be expanded a bit. "Criticism" is a pretty broad to be used twice without saying who criticized. Were there any opinion polls?
  • " This lawsuit was initially dismissed in Sangamon County Circuit Court before being appealed to the state's Supreme Court, which also ruled against Williams." - when? This is an example where passive voice can be eliminated to make it that much stronger, "The Sangamon County Circuit Court dismissed the lawsuit on X date"
  • "The bill was signed by Kerner on January 29 after it passed 161–0 in the House and 46–6 in the Senate." - the six defections in the Senate is mildly interesting to me, and I wonder who they were, if there was a pattern. I'd imagine someone disaffected, but I'm not sure who.
Election procedure and campaign
  • "The emergency bill passed by the legislature in the special session allowed each party to nominate up to 118 candidates at their party convention." - here is a great example where a bit of reordering makes for a stronger sentence. In its current form, it's a long sentence without a lot of structure.
  • "Third-party and independent candidates could also run, though they needed to gather 25k signatures to make the ballot." - "25k" is weird here, considering every other instance in the article writes the digits up to the hundreds of millions.
  • "The election was held on November 3, 1964, as part of the 1964 Illinois elections." - and also the 1964 presidential election. If you want to flesh that out, maybe mention why Election Day for president is on the first Tuesday of November? (Presidential Election Day Act of 1845)
  • "Delegates loyal to Percy refused to renominate nine incumbent legislators from the Chicago area, a part of the so-called "West Side bloc", who were viewed as loyal to the Democratic political machine in Cook County.[" Who?
  • "Incumbent legislators were placed at the top, ordered by seniority, alternating between candidates from Cook County and downstate. "
  • I'd love if you could add something like - "Accordingly, the Republicans nominated [Majority leader XX] first, and the Democrats nominated [Minority leader YY] first."
    • Ah, I think I was unclear here. Seniority is determined by years served, not leadership positions. I've linked to legislative seniority, which does... somewhat of a job of explaining this? Could also add a footnote though I wouldn't have a source for it (because my source did not go into detail on this subject, but based on the ballot it can be verified that legislative leaders were not placed first). Elli (talk | contribs) 12:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Before the election, the sheer number of ballots to be voted on led to predictions of a high number of undervotes in the House of Representatives election, but post-election analysis revealed that this did not take place." - was there an exact percentage given? Was it exactly zero? If you don't have the numbers for this, it's ok, I was just curious.
  • "ensure representation from every district in Illinois". - I see this is in quotation marks. Did someone say this? Was this an official policy/slogan?
Aftermath
  • " However, at-large elections have been held for all of a state's congressional seats due to similar failures to redistrict." - what do you mean?

All in all, a really good read, and I kept wanting more. I hope that my issues are fairly minor to address. I'm not sure which parts I brought up can be expanded, but I hope it's not too arduous. I do believe this article is close to FA standards. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:16, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review! You've definitely caught some things I've overlooked and I'll get to addressing them soon; shouldn't be too hard. Elli (talk | contribs) 07:52, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome, thanks for the quick responses! I expect to be able to support before too long. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hurricanehink: think I've addressed most of your significant concerns now. Couldn't actually figure out the best way to work "U.S. state" into the lead; would appreciate your input there (this actually isn't done in most state legislative election articles... maybe it should be though). Elli (talk | contribs) 03:31, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nice, good job on all of these fixes! I changed it to a conditional support. I suggested a change for including U.S. state link. The only other thing I'd like to see added are the bit about the confusion, and maybe the bit about why Election Day is held on the first Tuesday in November. Neither is significant enough for me to oppose, so I'm striking my oppose. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:13, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've implemented a (slightly edited) version of your suggestion regarding the U.S. state link. Thanks for that and for your support :) I'll continue looking for more sources about the confusion. Elli (talk | contribs) 19:26, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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What is the Illinois blue book? There are several citations with no explanation of what it is. And I get the impression that the format of the names is wrong. Some newspaper articles lack bylines. Otherwise, it seems like this article is primarily sourced to newspapers - are there think tank reports or political analyses in academia too? Formatting mostly consistent. Spot-check:

I've been meaning to write a page to explain what the Illinois blue book is; it's a biennial publication from the state government with info on the government. Many other states have them as well. As for think tank reports and analyses... I've used secondary sources where possible, but unfortunately a lot of the relevant details were only reported in primary sources. Elli (talk | contribs) 15:13, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that the article has little to say about how this at-large election was opined about. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: thanks for the review! I've addressed your concerns now and would appreciate another look. Apologies for the errors I made; hope they did not cause you too much of an inconvenience in reviewing.
As for the lack of coverage on opining... there really isn't much good coverage on that, especially in secondary sources? Which would be more necessary to determine due weight, compared to the other parts of this topic which can be more easily sourced to primary sources while remaining neutral.
Also not sure what you mean by "I get the impression that the format of the names is wrong." Elli (talk | contribs) 16:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the way the citations are formatted, I got the impression that you were using the author parameter for the subjects of the pages in the BB. Also, I think that editorial in prominent newspapers and prominent think tank reports would be adequate analysis, when attributed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I'm only using editor parameters, not author parameters. The editor of the blue book is the secretary of state, who is also documented in the book; I can see how that'd be a bit confusing. Not sure how to do that better though?
I'll look for more editorials. Not sure where to find relevant think tank reports, especially from back then. Elli (talk | contribs) 17:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jo-Jo, how is this one going? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't check every number and name in the table so if there is something wrong in it (and there probably is - typos happen when writing up such large piles of data), I won't see it. Otherwise OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:15, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Edge3

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I'm really excited to read this article! This is my first time reviewing at FAC, but I'm from Illinois and have written a few articles related to state politics, so hopefully you will find my insights to be valuable. My review comments will come within 2 days or so. Edge3 (talk) 05:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC) Here are my comments:[reply]

  • Citation 1 (Official Vote Count) – Link the publisher to Illinois State Board of Elections
  • There are many instances where you cite consecutive sentences with the same citation. You can consolidate these citations per WP:CITEDENSE.
    In the paragraph starting with "As the population of Chicago and Cook County grew...", you have a citation to [2]: 294, then [2]: 292–294, and then [2]: 294–295 after that. You could consolidate those to [2]: 292–295 for the entire paragraph, so I'm wondering if you have reasons for keeping them separated? The same applies to the rest of the article, where citation [2] seems to be used quite a lot. Edge3 (talk) 20:40, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, that's intentional -- I try to keep the cites as specific as possible (so the parts cited to 294 are only from that page, while the parts to 292-294 are from all three of those pages). I think that makes it a bit more convenient for a reader to verify facts? Elli (talk | contribs) 21:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying. As for the paragraph starting with "Democrats received no Republican support..." uses the same citation to page 299 three times. Could those be consolidated, or do you have a reason for separating them?
    Similarly, for the paragraph starting with "Among the Democrats elected...", could you consolidate the citations to page 307? Edge3 (talk) 22:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a similar idea: some parts are only supported by ref 2, while some parts are supported by ref 2 and another source. Separating these out makes it easier for readers to know what came from where. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Republicans passed a plan that would only remove one district from there – I would clarify again that "from there" really is referring to southern Illinois. A person reading quickly might not realize which part of the state you're talking about.
  • For all Blue Book citations, you can state that the "publisher" was the State of Illinois or Illinois Secretary of State.
  • "state's election board" – Link to Illinois State Board of Elections
  • For the entire first paragraph of "Redistricting", did you intend to cite page 16 instead of 17 from the Green 1987 source?
  • "five-judge panel" – As per Green 1987, would this have a five-judge panel of the state Supreme Court? Or did the Supreme Court refer this matter to a different group of five judges?
    @Elli: FYI this item is still awaiting your response Edge3 (talk) 16:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, missed that, sorry. I'm actually not sure? Neither source (Green or McDowell) is clear about this. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    After doing some more research I'm even more confused; newspapers from the time don't mention a five-judge panel and instead say a federal three-judge panel forced redistricting while the Supreme Court -- particularly, two justices from it -- did the remapping, which the federal judges then signed off on. Maybe that's how they get to five judges? Elli (talk | contribs) 16:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I looked into the case law, and I was able to find Scott V. Germano, where the US Supreme Court directed the US District Court to stay its proceedings, pending redistricting by the state. Simultaneously, the Illinois Supreme Court was considering People ex rel. Engle v. Kerner. See orders dated February 4, 1965 and September 9, 1965. In the state proceedings, three amici curiae to present maps for consideration. Ultimately, both the Illinois Supreme Court and the US District Court agreed to a provisional map. Edge3 (talk) 17:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for figuring that out :) I've expanded the section a bit. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Great! One more thing. In {{cite court}}, I think you are using the "pinpoint" parameter when you actually meant to use the "opinion" parameter. This applies to both the People ex rel. Giannis case and the Scott case. So the opinion number goes into the "opinion" parameter, and the specific paragraph or page number goes into the "pinpoint" parameter. See Case citation#Pinpoint citations. Edge3 (talk) 18:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, you're right. Not very experienced with that template. Corrected now. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:47, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "not successful for redistricting in 1971, 1981, 1991, or 2001" – Did this also continue in 2011 or 2021? Does it matter for the purposes of this article? Theoretically, this could happen again in 2031, but I'm not sure that you'd need to update this article even if that happens.
  • This was the only time in which a state legislative election was held at-large in the United States. The source is from 1965. Do you have a more recent source that confirms that no at-large state legislative elections have occurred since 1965?
    • Unfortunately not, though more recent reports on the phenomena of at-large elections mention 1964 IL and nothing else. (I know for a fact there have not been any others, but, well, few sources report on things that don't happen.) Elli (talk | contribs) 22:44, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, at-large elections have been held for all of a state's congressional seats when states have failed to pass a congressional map. You cite only one example, so you should use the singular "election" and "state" instead of the plural. I would also suggest mentioning explicitly the Minnesota election in 1932.
    • The ref in the [h] footnote goes into more detail on this. If it was just Minnesota, yeah, I'd mention it, but there's quite a few others. The reason I cited the Minnesota source separately is because that drew a parallel between the Minnesota at-large election and this election, indicating the connection between those topics is relevant. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:44, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, nice work! Edge3 (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Edge3: thanks for the review! I've addressed most of your feedback and will hopefully get to the rest of it soon. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:44, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I have a few more comments above that you may address at your leisure. Edge3 (talk) 15:54, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Think I've addressed everything now. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ready to support. Nice job! Edge3 (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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