Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1978 FA Cup Final/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 20 April 2020 [1].

1978 FA Cup Final

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 08:32, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One of the finest FA Cup finals ever, serious underdogs and league-lame Ipswich took on the mighty Gooners at old Wembley and beat them. The goalscorer collapsed after scoring, assuring his place in ITFC history. This is a fresh GA but it's fully comprehensive so I can't see a reason why FAC shouldn't be considered. I look forward to receiving the comments of the community. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 08:32, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support on comprehensiveness and prose - I reviewed this at GAN and tried to give it as big a shove as possible to here...and found little to complain about. I don't have the best eye for detail so may have missed stuff but I can't tell as I missed it (if I did). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:31, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Cas, I appreciated the review then and your comments here. It's a bit of a test case, but I'd be more than happy to discover any gaps and fill them in if there are any...! Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 11:51, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz

Hi TRM, great read. Congrats on the win! There was only a little football jargon I was unsure of so have suggested wlinks. Here are my comments...

were appearing in their eigthth final - eighth
Oops, fixed. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
hitting the woodwork three times - wlink Woodwork (football)
Linked to Goal (sports). The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
fourth round opponents at Highbury - move link from "played at Arsenal's Highbury" to this first mention and pipe the wlink to Arsenal Stadium (ie rather than the district)
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The upset was not repeated with Arsenal running out easy 4–0 winners with goals from Stapleton (2), Macdonald and Sunderland with Alan Buckley scoring the consolation for Walsall.[5] - score should be 4–1
Fixed. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wrexham increased their tempo and where denied - typo were
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
manager Bobby Robson had declared the FA Cup tie as "the most important match the club is going to play this season". - what "tie"? Tie means match here, not a draw? (Crikey, even 'draw' has 2 meanings - schedule and tie) Might other readers be also confused?
Linked tie to Tie (draw)! The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, "Bobby Robson had declared the FA Cup tie", what tie is he referring to? I thought you must be using jargon I hadn't come across before i.e., that "tie" could also mean draw as in 'team A were drawn to play team B'. The ref (BBC) says "With this in mind, Bobby Robson labelled the clash with Cardiff "the most important match the club is going to play this season"." It seemed to me you were rewording "clash" to "tie". Sorry, but I am still perplexed. (The link you added only reinforced my understanding of 'tie' meaning an equal score.) How could Robson say a "tie" was the most important match they were going to play? I'm feeling rather thick here, especially that no other reviewers see a problem. What am I missing? JennyOz (talk) 12:02, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, wrong sense of "tie". I've tried to reword as had declared the FA Cup contest against Cardiff as , does that make more sense? Don't for a moment feel thick, my link was wrong, the use of "tie" in this context is pretty familiar for sports aficionados but it's good to get your thoughts on it. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 12:54, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OMG TRM, I am so relieved! I'm not going mad after all! Yes, now makes sense to me, thank you. JennyOz (talk) 13:40, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
to send the game to a replay at Portman Road - wlink
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
to score at the near post from a Mills cross - apostrophe on Mills
Really? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Talbot displayed "outrageous bravery" to score - perhaps add/copy ref for quote closer to it?
Repeated ref from later, earlier. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
failed to clear a Lambert corner - move Lambert's full name and wlink up to here
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
late header from a Woods corner - apostrophe
Really? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
were making their eighth appearance - I'm counting this as ninth final appearance? (in ref and on List of Arsenal F.C. records and statistics#The FA and List of FA Cup Finals. If so, lede needs to change too.
Fixed. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
that suits us fine ... Arsenal seem - mos ellipsis ie nbsp...
Non-broken. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
the BBC as part of their Grandstand show - pipe to Grandstand (TV programme)
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
with punditry from - maybe wlink pundit
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
shooting past the post from a Hudson cross - move wlink and name up to here
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
a Mariner shot from a Woods header - apostrophe/s?
Really? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ater fifteen minutes, Talbot - typo after
Fixed. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The match, the fiftieth FA Cup final held at Wembley - ref for 50th? (I can't access it)
It's in the ref for that whole paragraph. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
to keep the scores level. - add at 0–0
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
substituted for Mick Lambert and - move his name and link up to first mention?
Fixed per your previous comment. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
With thirteen minutes left - less than 13 ie twelve per match report linked at score
Ok. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Osborne who sent it past Jennings with a first-time left-footed shot - add from ten yards out?
Added. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
30 minutes of extra-time if necessary. - is it normal to hyphenate?
Not fussed either way but in its usage here, I don't see why not. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
the whole team played well ... everything - proper ellipsis?
If that's non-breaker again, done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not going to say very much ... - ditto
Ditto. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
although they did appear in the semi-final three years later. - 'a' semi-final because there are 2?
Added an "s" as more standard BritEng.
As of 2019 it remains Ipswich Town's only FA Cup triumph - as of 2020 because they're knocked out? (let alone it might not be staged)
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why does Template:Arsenal F.C. matches include their 20 finals appearances but Template:Ipswich Town F.C. matches only shows their winning final?
Because Ipswich never made it to any other final! The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ref Pawson, Tony - authorlink if is Tony Pawson (cricketer)?
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
McIlvanney, Hugh - authorlink
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Welch, Julie - authorlink
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ref 15 "1978 – Osbourne's year". BBC Sport. - I'd change the typo in name (MOS:PMC allows "insignificant spelling and typographic errors should simply be silently corrected"). The writer spelt Osborne correctly in item, whoever wrote the heading accidentally added the 'U'.
Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
kit - this shows blue stripe on socks. (no idea if RS though)
Yes, I'm not sure about RS of that site. I'm reluctant to use it. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
kit - saw the chat with Cas re Arsenal's colours speaks of the league rule about diff shorts (see "In 1975, the Football League introduced a rule..."). Was it for ref's benefit or TV watchers who still had B&W sets? Either way, it's a very intriguing question but not necessarily pertinent for this review.
Yes, as of now I'm still lacking anything reliable, some speculation which might be possible to include as just that, but

That is it for now. Let me know if you need any clarifications. Regards, JennyOz (talk) 13:21, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz thanks, as ever, for your comments. I've addressed as many as I can, and there are a couple of "Really"s? in there which might need a bit more discussion. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz just wondered if you had a chance to get back to me about the comments I addressed? Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 07:11, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi TRM, yes, I have been mulling over this and have revisited it often hoping the penny would drop but am still (embarrassingly) confused. I have tried to explain my confusion (maybe confused my explanation!) above re Robson/tie. As for my apostrophe suggestions - maybe not "really". All else seems perfectly fine to me and am happy with the tweaks. JennyOz (talk) 12:02, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz I think I created confusion. I've added notes above and made a change to the prose which hopefully clears it up? Thanks again for your time and comments. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 12:54, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All clear! This article is a fine telling of the journey and match. I am very happy to add my support. JennyOz (talk) 13:40, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:1978_FA_Cup_Final_match_programme.jpg: "n.a" parameters should be filled in. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:04, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 14:59, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Referee

Not sure, but I don't like the idea of having a red-linked article name for a FA article. Would it be better to de-link? Govvy (talk) 14:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I delinked it (it was already in the infobox without linking) as it's unlikely that he will soon attract any interest in an article. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 16:06, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some source comments

Sources look reliable.
Curious about external links 1 and 2 - are either of those reliable sources?
First link expunged, but Soccerbase is usually consider RS. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 07:09, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Spot check 1 using source 4: quote checks out.
Spot check 2 using source 8a/b: first quote checks out for 8a; second claim is stated explicitly and looks good.
Spot check 3 using source 14a: Seems to be summarized from the available records there, so looks fine to me.
Spot check 4 using source 19: names listed match source.
Spot check 5 using source 25: Not sure the first sentence is supported by the source explicitly.
Explicitly supported by new ref now. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 07:09, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So looks good besides external links 1/2 and then my concern about spot check 5/source 25 material. Prose looks great. ceranthor 22:43, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A limitation of my review to note would be that I only did spot checks for freely available sources, which are in the minority for this article unless you have access to newspaper archives. ceranthor 22:43, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ceranthor thanks for taking a look at the sources, I've addressed them where appropriate and responded above. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 07:09, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: Looks good now. Nice work. ceranthor 12:49, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ceranthor. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:01, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kaiser matias

"Ipswich had needed a replay in the fifth round to proceed past Bristol Rovers but Arsenal won all of their ties at the first time of asking. They went into the final as clear favourites." Couple things here: this may be my Canadian English showing, but I gather "tie" to be a variant of "match" or "game" and not the outcome (eg. 0-0)? The wording just comes across as odd to me, but if it is proper British English, I'll leave it. And I don't know if "but" is the right word here; I'd be more inclined to go with "while Arsenal won..." I'm also thinking if it wouldn't be better to drop the period after "first time of asking" and make it one sentence, which would further highlight Arsenal was the clear favourite. Something like "Arsenal won all of their ties at the first time of asking, and went into the final as clear favourites."?

Yes, these confused JennyOz above too, not helped by my bad linking... It's a "tie" in the sense that the two teams are drawn out and "tied" together to play their game. It can, as you note, mean you could have a tied tie. Tweaked the bit you suggested, hopefully that works/flows better? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All good. I'll also blame discrepancies between English variations here, but I'm happy with it now.

"Clubs ... are drawn randomly out of a hat..." Is it literally a hat? I say this more out of curiosity than anything, but I suppose if not then could be just "drawn randomly".

Well it was. It's a little more clinical these days (balls out of a bowl, each ball having a number which represents each team still in the contest", but yes, that's how it happened. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, neat that they literally did that.

"Alan Sunderland's header from a Macdonald cross..." I'd add a link to Cross (association football) here. While it's clear it is a pass, it isn't clear what type of pass.

Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"...25 minutes in, Macdonald tapped home..." That comma seems out of place, and could probably be removed.

Not sure I agree with that one, a natural pause for me, i.e. suitable for a comma. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Again I'll note English variations, which of course isn't anything to be hung up on.

Add a link for Leeds United in the Pre-match section.

Done. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"They had won the cup on four other occasions..." Shouldn' cup, as a proper noun, be capitalized here? I can see an argument either way, so more curious on the conventional usage (I know that when referring to the Stanley Cup, for example, "Cup" is always capitalized). But if that's not the style, then all good.

No, I don't think so. If I said "they had won the FA Cup on four other occasions" then I'd agree, but this isn't the case. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good enough for me. Just want to make sure that's the case.

Other than that seems like a solid article. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:17, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review Kaiser matias, I've responded inline to each of your comments. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, looks good to me. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:00, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kosack

Why does Orient include the F.C. abbreviation when no other clubs do?
No longer. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any other sources for the Walsall game being considered the ""greatest FA Cup upset of all time"? The source here is Walsall themselves which seems a little contrived perhaps. Even if it's lessened to "considered by some to be..." or the likes?
I toned it down, made it a general "one of" claims and added at least two more references. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Could link hat-trick in Ipswich's route to the final.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wembley Stadium is mentioned for the first time in the main body in the final sentence of Ipswich's route to the final. I would include a link for it there.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The referee is red linked in the details section but not in his previous mentions. I notice Govvy's comment above, if you are removing his links, I would drop this one too.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing much I would pick out really, a handful of minor points above to consider. Kosack (talk) 19:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kosack thanks very much for taking a look. I've addressed your comments above. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, happy to support. Nice work. Kosack (talk) 06:16, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias

"..are drawn randomly out of a hat with the remaining clubs. If a match is drawn.." The use of "drawn" twice quickly, but with different meanings is a little confusing. I can't readily think of an alternative, but at a minimum could at least one of them have a wikilink for clarity?
Reworded and a link added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link Replay (sports).
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link "away" to Road (sports).
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link Penalty kick (association football).
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"..with Wolves' defender Bob Hazell being sent off and Macdonald scoring.." Rephrase to avoid two instances of Noun plus -ing.
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"..with Arsenal running.." And again.
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"..with Alan Buckley scoring.." And again.
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Ipswich ran out 2–0 winners.." Is "ran out" encyclopaedic language in this usage? Genuinely unsure.
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"..with Mariner scoring.." And again.
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Minutes into the second half.." How many? Any point in the half could be defined as being "minutes in".
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"..with bookmaker William Hill offering.." Noun plus -ing again.
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link Odds#Even odds.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It would be nice if the match summary could indicate when half time occurs, even if just by noting at the relevant point that "The scores remained goalless at half time."
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Arsenal's Young stuck out a foot to defend it and deflected the ball to Roger Osborne who sent it past Jennings with a first-time left-footed shot from 10 yards (9.1 m)." I think it would be worth clarifying that a goal was scored. I think a layperson could easily keep reading without realising.
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overall a nice article, with just a few nit-picks. (Fancy taking a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2009 Women's Cricket World Cup Final/archive2 some time?) Harrias ^talk 19:55, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias thanks very much, I think I've addressed every one of your comments. Do let me know if anything else is needed. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support nice work. I need to point out that I will claim WikiCup points for this review. Harrias ^talk 13:13, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FAC delegates, are we done here? Source review, image review, heavy consensus to promote? Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:29, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I was wondering about referencing for the Details section. I can see a fair bit of it is supported by the match report link but I couldn't see where, for instance, that included the players' positions and flags of origin or allegiance or whatever. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:21, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Added another link in (teams) next to (Reports) which has their positions/nationalities. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:34, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Rose that's addressed, anything else? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:42, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looks okay, tks. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:13, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 10:14, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.