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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2003 World Snooker Championship/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 1 August 2024 [1].

2003 World Snooker Championship

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Nominator(s): Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:17, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2003 World Snooker Championship. I look forward to any comments you might have.Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:17, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Generalissima

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  • File:Embassy World Snooker 2003-05 logo.png: Not copyrightable, although it could probably be vectorised - this isn't important for the FAC though.
  • File:Ronnie O'Sullivan PHC 2011-1.png: CC-BY-SA 3.0
  • File:Stephen Lee PHC 2011-1.png: CC-BY-SA 3.0
  • File:Ken Doherty.jpg: CC-BY-SA 3.0 & GNU Free Documentation License.
  • File:Mark Williams at Snooker German Masters (DerHexer) 2015-02-05 01.jpg: CC-BY-SA 4.0
  • Some of these images have the persons facing right: this is usually recommended to be left-justified according to MOS:IMAGELOC, although I have been told that this is not strictly a FA criteria requirement.
  • Images have proper alt-text.
  • It might be worthwhile to note that these are not images of them at this specific event in the captions — I initially thought so until I saw the dates myself. I believe that falls under prose though, so Support on image review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Joeyquism

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Should get to this soon; end of Saturday (America time) at the latest. joeyquism (talk) 18:27, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Lee! I've listed some things that I noticed below; feel free to refuse with justification:

  • Before Gog comes through, you should change the reference titles to be all in title or sentence case - there's an extension to assist in this if needed. Additionally, appropriate web/news links should be archived if they can (I'm sure you are familiar, but I would suggest using IABot here).
    • I only just learned about this script the other day. I've run it, but it does cause some issues with mobile view, so I have to install it each time I need to run it, which isn't ideal. I do run IABot, however, due to some localising, some news sites cannot be archived through IABot (the Eurosport.co.uk links), so I've archived where I can. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:41, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overview looks great. Snooker terms that I would have otherwise not been familiar with are wikilinked appropriately, and are described in a way that is clear and isn't overwhelming. I would, however, suggest moving the footnote [a] to be after "modern era".
  • This was the fifth maximum compiled at the world championships; the first since O'Sullivan at the 1997 World Championship. - I'm not sure of the use of the semicolon here. I think "and the first" with a comma would read a little bit better.
  • In an all Scottish clash... - I believe that "all Scottish" should be hyphenated here.
  • ...whilst Hunter perhaps drew on his two Masters finals wins to motivate him in the deciding frame. - Could you provide the text in the original literature that corroborates the "perhaps" in this sentence?
  • Mark Williams defeated seven-time champion and close friend Stephen Hendry 13–7. - I'm not sure of the relevance of including "close friend" here; it seems a bit extraneous.
  • The final was officiated by the Netherlands' Jan Verhaas, the youngest referee at a world final. - Has this been superseded by anyone else? I would word it a bit differently if so (something like "then the youngest referee to oversee a world final until [name] in [year]") but I understand if this is not appropriate.
    Just noticed this @Lee Vilenski & @Joeyquism. FYI, Verhaas (aged 36 in 2003) is no longer the youngest to referee a world final. Paul Collier was 33 in 2004 and Marcel Eckardt was 30 in 2020. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 15:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for alerting us of this! In that case, I would say that the proposed revision would be better suited here, if you can find a source for Paul Collier's age in 2004. joeyquism (talk) 15:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly found very little wrong with this article; most of it is already very well-written and comprehensive. As someone unfamiliar with snooker, I feel like I learned a lot from your clear elaborations. After these initial comments are addressed, I'll give it another read and see if I find anything wrong - if not, I will likely come back to take a supportive stance. Apologies if I came off as pedantic; however, I do hope that this review was at least a little bit helpful. Thank you for all your hard work, and I hope you have a great day! joeyquism (talk) 02:16, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, thats exactly what I look for in a review. I want the article to be better after recieving one. I'll take a look in a mo. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

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Four weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next two or three days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Lee Vilenski, I note that you are away on holiday. I hope that you are enjoying yourself. I note that you have not commented here for five weeks. While RL obviosly comes first, can I point you towards the rule "Nominators are expected to ... make efforts to address objections promptly". I will give you another couple of days, but this nomination is in imminent danger of being archived for inactivity, which would be a shame. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gog the Mild I don't think Lee Vilenski would have received a ping on the 25th, but hopefully will now. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since it's been a week since the prod and Lee hasn't popped up to address the piled-up comments, archiving for now. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from HurricaneHiggins

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Global comment
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This article feels rather "thin" to me in comparison with other World Championship tournament articles that have Featured Article status. For instance, the summary section mentions nothing about the qualifiers and doesn't even mention who the debutants were in that year. The first-round summary mentions just 4 matches out of a possible 16 and the second-round summary also mentions just 4 matches out of a possible 8. And some of these mentions are just "this guy beat that guy." I would have liked the summary to go into a bit more depth and detail in order to convey more of a flavour of the tournament.

Lead
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  • "This was the 27th consecutive year that the World Snooker Championship had been held at the Crucible, marking the 26th anniversary of the first staging of the event at this venue." This feels both confusing and redundant. How about "This was the 27th consecutive year that the World Snooker Championship was held at the Crucible, where it was first staged in 1977."
  • "became another first-time champion to fall to the Crucible curse" ... another? Of how many?
  • O'Sullivan's maximum break and his achievement in becoming the first player to make multiple Crucible 147s are surely lead-worthy?
  • In my view, the lead should mention who the debutants were that year and also give the century break total for the tournament.
Overview
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  • This section mentions the popularity of snooker in China, Hong Kong, and Thailand, using references from 2015 and later. But this article is about the 2003 tournament, and so we seem to be talking about stuff that hasn't quite happened yet in the sport. Yes, the main stage featured two Asian players (Fu and Wattana), but Ding Junhui had not even turned pro yet, and so it seems premature to be talking about China in particular.
  • I would suggest moving the sentences about Joe Davis and the tournament moving to the Crucible to the start of the paragraph in which they feature.
  • "It was the ninth and last ranking event of the 2002–03 snooker season on the World Snooker Tour." Note that the brand "World Snooker Tour" was introduced as part of a 2020 rebrand of World Snooker. It didn't exist in 2003. People typically referred to the "main tour" at that time.
  • "The number of frames needed to win a match increased to 13 in the second round and quarter-finals, and 17 in the semi-finals; the final match was played as best-of-35-frames." It seems confusing to mix "best of" and "first to". "The second-round and quarter-final matches were the best of 25 frames, the semi-finals were best of 33, and the final was best of 35" would be more consistent.
  • "This was the fifth maximum compiled at the world championships and the first since O'Sullivan at the 1997 World Championship." This makes it sound like O'Sullivan himself is a maximum break. I'd suggest "This was the fifth maximum compiled at the World Championship and the first since O'Sullivan's maximum at the 1997 event."
  • "a 132 break in his first round match" -- hyphenate first-round match.
  • "Ebdon lead 4–3 ..." Should read "Ebdon led 4–3"
Quarter-finals
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  • "The quarter-final was played" -- should be "The quarter-finals were played"
Semi-finals
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  • "A condensed version of the match was showcased on BBC Two on 28 April 2020 in place of the 2020 World Snooker Championship which was postponed because of the coronavirus pandemic." How relevant is this? Or is it an example of recentism bias?
Final
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  • "Jan Verhaas, the youngest referee at a world final." The article should probably note that while this was true at the time, Verhaas (then aged 36) is no longer the youngest to referee a world final. He was superseded in the 2004 final by Paul Collier (then aged 33), who in turn was superseded in the 2020 final by Marcel Eckardt (then aged 30).
  • "Williams took an early lead in the final, leading at 6–2 after the first session, and extended the lead to 10–2 in the second session." Overly verbose. "Williams led 6–2 after the first session and extended his lead to 10–2 in the second session."
  • "On the resumption in the third session, Doherty won six frames in-a-row" -- I'd suggest "In the third session, Doherty won six frames in a row" (do not hyphenate "in-a-row").
  • "The win allowed Williams to become world number one again, the first player to regain the position under the current ranking system and only the second overall after Ray Reardon." This may need clarification. The "current" rolling ranking system (in 2024) is different from the annual ranking system that was in effect up to 2010. And the sentence suggests that Reardon regained the number one position under another, different ranking system. All this is confusing, even to someone familiar with snooker history.

Hope this is helpful. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 15:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from BennyOnTheLoose

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Some initial commments. I might do a fuller review later. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:01, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Are there particular reasons why this is significantly shorter than the article for, say, the 2002 edition of the tournament?
  • Why are there no details about the qualifying competition? I don't think we want full results as there were so many of them, but looks like there was some bizarre set-up with different pre-qualifying competitions for non-WPBSA members, WPBSA members (non-tour), and WPBSA challenge tour members, followed by six qualifying rounds.
  • "There were a total of 120 entrants from the tour" - not verified by the source, and I don't think it is accurate.
  • Prize fund has the Highest pre-TV break prize but not the money awarded for Last 48/64/80/96/128 round losers.
  • The article doesn't mention who won the Highest pre-TV break prize.
  • "The next two frames were tied" - I don't think this is the intended phrase.
  • "However, Fu won the match 10–6" - is this supported by Almanac p161? (I'm guessing not)
  • "a 42-minute final frame" - can some context be given, or the duration removed?
  • I dislike "all-Scottish clash", but support for this is in the source.
  • "defeated seven-time champion Stephen Hendry" - why only mention his titles at the fourth instance of his name?
  • I see HH above queried "A condensed version of the match was showcased on BBC Two on 28 April 2020 in place of the 2020 World Snooker Championship which was postponed because of the coronavirus pandemic" - I'd suggest removing it.
  • "He was only the third player to win these three events in a single season and is the most recent player to have achieved this" - suggest rewording as the source is from 2003 and he may not always be "the most recent player to have achieved this"
  • "With three of his matches going to a deciding frame, Doherty played 132 out of a possible 137 frames in the tournament, a record for the modern era, with only his quarter final win over Higgins having been decided by more than two frames" - not all supported by the source. Adding Downer's Almanac as a source should sort this.
  • Main draw - I checked a couple of the references against the dates and they didn't verify all of the info (e.g. dates on which matches were played.) Perhaps these are redundant as you have cited the Crucible Almanac, which I'm sure has all of the session dates.
  • I know opinions vary about the best way to present the scores from the final, but personally I dislike this one which has the scores twice.
  • Caption "Ken Doherty was six frames behind, but won 17–16." - maybe add the round, or the opponent?
  • Ref 3 - "worldsnooker.com. World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association" World Snooker and WPBSA are, and I think were in 2003, related but different organisations.
  • Some other citations are inconsistent, e.g. "Peter Ebdon "I'm Delighted". BBC." but "Williams Takes Centre Stage". news.bbc.co.uk"; the snooker.org citations
  • I've corrected the authors for the Snooker Scene articles and made some other tweaks to them - please check that these changes are OK.
  • Lead "The championships were sponsored by cigarette manufacturer Embassy." is not included in the body, so is uncited.
  • Format: "It was the ninth and last ranking event of the 2002–03 snooker season on the World Snooker Tour." not supported by sources. The BBC source is about a different season, and the snooker.org source has "WPBSA ranking tournament (#8 of 8)"
  • Tournament summary - you could add a cuegloss link to "sessions" at the first instance.

Comments by RoySmith

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  • The World Snooker Championship is a professional tournament and the official world championship of the game of snooker . [1] It's unclear if the source supports calling it "the official world championship".
  • Founded in the late 19th century by British Army soldiers stationed in India, [2] What makes snookerheritage.co.uk a WP:RS? Also, the source says "already popular at his club in Rangoon (Burma)", so it looks like it was invented in Burma, not India.
  • There were a total of 120 entrants from the tour .... [15] I can't find where the source says that.
  • The top 16 players in the latest world rankings automatically qualified for the main draw as seeded players. As defending champion, Peter Ebdon was seeded first for the event, with world number 1 Ronnie O'Sullivan seeded 2; the remaining seeds were allocated based on the players' world ranking positions. [16] I see where it says Ebdon was the number one seed, but can't find any of the other stuff.
  • The opening round was played from 19 to 24 April as the best-of-19 frames, held over two sessions. Ronnie O'Sullivan compiled a maximum break in his first-round match against Marco Fu , making him the first player to have scored two 147s at the venue. This was the fifth maximum compiled at the world championships and the first since O'Sullivan at the 1997 World Championship . [19] Two issues here. First, Chris Turner's Snooker Archive looks like a self-hosted blog, so not a WP:RS. Second, it doesn't say any of those things.
  • Ebdon lead 4–3 but then won six frames in a row to win. Ebdon thanked stronger contact lenses for his ability to stay in the match. [22] [23] citation 23 is not much more than a Wikipedia:Bare URL. It gets you to some piece of RTSP content and then immediately closes the connection. There's no enough information in the citation to find it through other means, so I'd say this fails WP:PUBLISH.
  • Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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