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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2023 World Snooker Championship/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 8 July 2024 [1].

2023 World Snooker Championship

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2023 World Snooker Championship (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 27 November 2024, 04:26 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC), HurricaneHiggins[reply]

This article is about last year's World Championship. The last FAC failed for inactivity, rather than quality. Let me know what you think! Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from BennyOnTheLoose

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(Note: my alleged contribution to the article results from having run IABot on it, and a co-ordinator confirmed at the previous nomination that I'm OK to express an opinion. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:55, 8 April 2024 (UTC))[reply]

  • Most of my comments from the first nomination have been addressed in edits by HurricaneHiggins, but the sources cited for Main draw still don't verify the dates of matches, or the details of the final (referee, frame scores, breaks).

I did some spot checks on the Third qualification round section and found the following issues. This suggests to me that some background knowledge, rather that just the cited sources, has been used:

  • "The 2006 champion Graeme Dott reached the final round with a 10–6 victory over Andy Hicks. From 7–9 behind against John Astley, world number 21 Anthony McGill made breaks of 136 and 98 to force a deciding frame, which he won." seems to be uncited. Ref 53 only covers the Thepchaiya Un-Nooh/Mark Joyce match. Maybe refs 54 and 55 need to be move or re-used.
  • "former world seniors champion David Lilley2 - "former world seniors champion" not verified by cited source
  • "Two-time semi-finalist Stephen Maguire2 - "Two-time semi-finalist" not verified by cited source
  • "Northern Irish player Jordan Brown" - "Northern Irish" not verified by cited source
  • "2023 German Masters runner-up Tom Ford" - "2023 German Masters runner-up" not verified by cited source
  • "Stevens defeated fellow Welsh player Jamie Clarke" - nationalities are not verified by cited source
  • "2022 Crucible debutant Ashley Hugill." - "2022 Crucible debutant" not verified by cited source
  • "Pang Junxu, runner-up at the previous month's 2023 WST Classic" - "runner-up at the previous month's 2023 WST Classic" not verified by cited source
    • I can see that having these colour bits could be seen as not supported by the sources, I'm happy to take them out. I think there are some pieces where it's worth stating something about the person, why the match matters, etc. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've gone through this section and removed some fluff. See if you think that is better. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second para of First round section

  • "The 2023 German Masters champion Ali Carter faced Welsh debutant Jones. Carter made a 143 total clearance in frame five, but Jones won the first session 5–4 and went on to clinch the match 10–6" - not supported by cited source.
  • "Carter called the loss "a disappointing end to a good season" - not supported by cited source.
  • "Making his 25th Crucible appearance, three-time champion Mark Williams faced Jimmy Robertson, who had lost in the first round on each of his four previous Crucible appearances." - not supported by cited source.

Third para of First round section

  • "Mark Allen, who had won ranking titles during the season at the 2022 Northern Ireland Open, the 2022 UK Championship, and the 2023 World Grand Prix, won the first five frames against debutant Fan. Although Fan won the next three with breaks including 122 and 110, Allen took the last of the session to lead 6–3" - not supported by cited source.
  • "who had won his first ranking title earlier that season at the 2022 Scottish Open" - "first ranking title" not supported by cited source.
  • "Wilson said afterwards that Slessor's comeback had made the scoreline "too close for comfort." - not supported by cited source.

I'm not sure what the issue is, but I request that the nominators check the text to sources. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @BennyOnTheLoose, I did a spot-check on your last example. It appears that the article was archived at an intermediate point before World Snooker added additional details and quotes. They will often publish a preliminary version of a story with "more to come" and it seems that this was archived, rather than the final version. This is the full version of the article, with Wilson's "too close for comfort" quote about Slessor's comeback included: https://web.archive.org/web/20230423094637/https://wst.tv/wilson-wins-north-east-derby/ I'm not sure how to fix this, especially since the links are to the old version of the WST website before its redesign, which broke a lot of the links. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 11:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Similarly, here's the full version of the Mark Allen/Fan Zhengyi match report, which verifies the material you quoted: https://web.archive.org/web/20230609114338/https://wst.tv/vafaei-stirs-up-osullivan-clash/ Same issue as the above, where the archived version of article is the preliminary version, not the final version. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 11:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's rather awkward. Gog the Mild any advice for this situation? Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not my speciality area and I am obviously playing the role of Mr Stupid here, but I am not sure why a cite cannot be replaced with one which actually supports the text. I am dissuaded from attempting it myself by your joint expression that it is trickier than that. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @Gog the Mild. I'm sure it would be possible to go through the article and replace all the URLs manually, but my concern is that if someone runs IABot again, the URLs will all be auto-replaced by the wrong ones. But I'm no expert on this either. @Lee Vilenski, would love to know your opinion. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 21:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IABot archives as close to the access-date as possible if I recall correctly. This is a real issue on news websites which usurp URLs with different info. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 22:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, @BennyOnTheLoose, @Lee Vilenski, @Gog the Mild, we have a few interlocking issues here. First, the WST website featured a lot of detail, information, & quotes from the tournament that are not found elsewhere. Second, the WST site was redesigned & relaunched in early 2024, in such a manner that old URLs no longer work, and so we have to rely on archived sources. Third, when it comes to these archived URLs, IABot defaults to the earliest archived version of an article — in this case, preliminary versions that contain only skeletal info. This implies that replacing URLs manually will produce only a temporary fix, as they will be reverted the next time someone runs IABot again. As the person who wrote most of the prose, I can vouch for the fact that all of the information in the article was correctly and fully sourced at the time it was written — and the archived sources still exist. I just don't know how we can get around the issues above. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 09:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I see. Thanks for the explanation. Sourcing information can always be changed manually post-FAC; I don't know that we can legislate for that. But can we not use {{nobots}}, {{bots|deny=<botlist>}} or {{bots|deny=all}}, see Template:Bots? Gog the Mild (talk) 09:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @Gog the Mild. That sounds like a potential solution, if we can turn off the automatic changing of URLs. I'd probably need someone else to implement that properly, though, as I'm not the most technical minded contributor. I typically focus on writing! HurricaneHiggins (talk) 10:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My adding <nobots> may have resolved it. Ideally someone needs to test that. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can confirm, error is " Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "From 7–9 behind against John Astley, world number 21 Anthony McGill made breaks of 136 and 98 to force a deciding frame, which he won. Thepchaiya Un-Nooh made four centuries, including a 145, as he defeated Mark Joyce 10–5." - not all supported by the cited source, which is the match record for Thepchaiya Un-Nooh v Mark Joyce.
  • "Two-time semi-finalist Stephen Maguire" - "Two-time semi-finalist" not verified by cited source
  • "Northern Irish player Jordan Brown" - "Northern Irish" not verified by cited source
  • "2023 German Masters runner-up Tom Ford" - "2023 German Masters runner-up" not verified by cited source
  • "Stevens defeated fellow Welsh player Jamie Clarke" - nationalities are not verified by cited source
  • "2022 Crucible debutant Ashley Hugill." - "2022 Crucible debutant" not verified by cited source
  • "Pang Junxu, runner-up at the previous month's 2023 WST Classic" - "runner-up at the previous month's 2023 WST Classic" not verified by cited source

@Lee Vilenski: Looking again at my comment on the Second para of First round section:

  • "The 2023 German Masters champion Ali Carter faced Welsh debutant Jones. Carter made a 143 total clearance in frame five, but Jones won the first session 5–4 and went on to clinch the match 10–6" - still not supported by cited source.
  • "Carter called the loss "a disappointing end to a good season" - still not supported by cited source.
  • "Making his 25th Crucible appearance, three-time champion Mark Williams faced Jimmy Robertson, who had lost in the first round on each of his four previous Crucible appearances." - still not supported by cited source.

Please check my other comments above too. Regards, 14:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

    • Oh, I hadn't seen them, but they are all in the citations, just the archives are wrong. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • So, BennyOnTheLoose, it's not so much that there is an issue with the cited material not covering the text, but rather that the archived URL of the page is from before the prose was written. The thing being referenced (the original website) is being suitably referenced, but has been archived to the closest archive, the one before the text existed.
      • Thanks for being so thorough BennyOnTheLoose. In my opinion, confirming the exact archive of the text is a bit overkill for FAC, although I do agree it's a good task to complete. I simply am not going to find the time to go through every WST reference in this article and move the reference one archive later in time. I have changed the three that you have just mentioned to show that the prose is being covered by the cited article, but currenrtly I know of no automated way to make these changes wholesale. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:32, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Gog the Mild and David Fuchs; sorry to invoke you again. I checked some of the above and they are supported by different archived versions, and the couple of cases where that wasn't the issue have been resolved. I'm a little torn between remaining neutral, on the basis that I'm not sure that "claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate", and supporting on the basis of assuming good faith. (I am conscious that many of the sources that I use for FACs are offline and pretty inaccessible to most readers, although I will always be able to provide relevant extracts to reviewers. What's more, I was the one ran IABot on the article). Is there precedent for this sort of situation that can guide me? I'm satisfied that the other criteria for an FA are met. Sorry if I'm making a big deal of this! Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          @BennyOnTheLoose it's up to your discretion. Dead links are not prohibited as verifiable cites, and it's not something the FA criteria particularly speak to specifically. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Support (finally). Thanks, nominators and coordinators. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:46, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • Suggest adding alt text
I was unable to archive the source, although I'm not sure that means the image isn't suitable anymore. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nikkimaria, any thoughts on this? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is an alternative source available? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I've managed to successfully archive this now. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Harper J. Cole

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Hi there, here's a few comments...

Harper J. Cole (talk) 20:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Harper J. Cole, thanks for your review! Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries - just one more to follow up on above. Harper J. Cole (talk) 22:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm satisfied: Support --Harper J. Cole (talk) 10:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sammi Brie

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Let's give that prose a bath, shall we? Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Oh, another snooker article! What makes livescores.worldsnookerdata.com and cajt.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk a reliable source? The Guardian does not need an ISSN. I've reviewed many of these sources in other snooker reviews, but I note that World Snooker is inconsistently linked. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Livescores is the Official World Snooker Tour website - they just had a different URL for scores. Cajt is Chris Turner's old website, who is a snooker statistician who used to work for the BBC and Eurosport. I can delink the source names, which is always my favoured method. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jo-Jo ? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing to add from me here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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