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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Albert Luthuli/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 28 October 2023 [1].

Albert Luthuli

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Nominator(s): Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 02:26, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let's imagine my last FA nomination didn't happen. This article is about Albert Luthuli, a South African anti-apartheid activist and former President of the African National Congress. He led the ANC during a challenging period when the South African government had banned the organization. Additionally, the ANC's newly established paramilitary wing, uMkhonto we Sizwe, had initiated their sabotage operations, a move he personally opposed. I spent the last three years expanding this article and have enjoyed everything I learned. I got it to a GA a couple months ago but refrained from a FA nomination. Fast forward to today and I thought I should stop procrastinating and just nominate it. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 02:26, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

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Hi Iamawesomeautomatic, and welcome back to FAC. Just noting that as you have not yet had a nomination promoted at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:02, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Groutville_Church.jpg: where was this first published? Ditto File:LuthuliCropped.png, File:Z.K._Matthews_Cropped.png, File:Martin_Luther_King,_Jr..jpg
Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.jpg - Norway most likely, because it's his Nobel Peace Prize portrait which was awarded in Oslo. As for the other three photos it is not specified, but it's probably South Africa. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Images hosted on Commons need tagging for country of origin as well as the US. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I changed the MLK photo too. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 04:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which of the South African rationales is believed to apply to File:LuthuliCropped.png and File:Z.K._Matthews_Cropped.png?
Could you explain which rationales I can use? I'm new to this. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 01:54, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The tag you're currently using for South African status outlines multiple possible situations in which the tag can be applied: "It is an anonymous work or pseudonymous work and 50 years have passed since the date of its publication; It is a broadcast or sound recording and 50 years have passed since the year the programme was published; It is a cinematographic or photographic work and 50 years have passed since the date of its creation; It is an artistic, literary or musical work created under the direction of the state or an international organization and 50 years have passed since the year the work was published; It is another kind of work, and 50 years have passed since the year of death of the author (or last-surviving author).". My question is: which one of those are you asserting to be the case? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"*File:JohnDube1891.png: when and where was this first published, and who created it?

The book the photo came from was published in 1891 in Rochester, NY. There's no indication who created the photo. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How do we know the author died over 70 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we don't know, but I thought any work before 1928 was public domain? Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 04:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Typically a pre-1928 will be public domain in the US, but as above to be hosted on Commons it also needs to be free in country of origin. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I decided to remove the photo. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 23:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Mahatma-Gandhi,_studio,_1931.jpg is missing the research description required by the UK tag, and the US tag indicates it is non-free
Should I remove the photo if it's not public domain in the US? Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, unless you think a fair-use claim could be made. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Added a new photo. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 23:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Palace_of_Justice_(S_Wierda)_1902_Church_Square_Pretoria_061.jpg is mistagged
In what way is it mistagged and how can I correct it? Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Under US law reproduction of a 2D work does not garner a new copyright - this needs tagging reflecting the status of the pictured work instead. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the pictured work, it's unknown what year it was created. Am I not able to use it? Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 04:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a range, or we have no idea? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have no idea. I added a new photo that I think is more clear. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 23:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:1933_Nobel_Peace_Prize_awarded_to_Norman_Angell.png: what is the author's date of death?
1943. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unsure how to do this. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When was the pass book published? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1984. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 04:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Would it fall under PD-South-Africa-exempt? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think so, because it's a legal document. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 01:54, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, suggest clarifying that. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

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I was the GA reviewer for this. I've copyedited as I read through the article; please revert anything you disagree with.

  • "He returned to his family's ancestral home of Groutville in 1908": suggest "In 1908 he moved to Groutville, where his parents and grandparents had lived, to attend school under the care of his uncle". I don't think "ancestral" is the right word -- it implies a multi-generational association, but here there are only two generations. And "returned" isn't right, since unless I'm misreading the body of the article, Luthuli had never lived in Groutville before 1908.
    Done. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks like you didn't do this, but since you're OK with it I went ahead and made the edit myself. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Luthuli's teaching was recognised by the government, and he was offered a bursary to study for the Higher Teacher's Diploma at Adams College." Does the first half of this say anything that we don't get from the second half? If the intended meaning is that the bursaries were only offered to those who were evaluated and found to be good teachers, I would say that in the body. Either way I don't think we need it in the lead. I would also suggest making it "accepted" rather than "was offered".
    Understood, but are you asking me to remove this section from the lead entirely? Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I just meant to cut the first half -- again I've done this; let me know if that looks OK. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "against a punishment which made boys carry large stones long distances, which damaged their uniforms that many couldn't afford". I think this needs rephrasing -- I think what's intended is that many boys could not afford to mend or replace uniforms. As written the sentence says that the boy's who could not afford uniforms (and therefore were not wearing uniforms) damaged their uniforms. Or is "could not afford" being used here in the sense of "stretched their budget"?
    Done. I clarified it. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By 1951, Luthuli continued to support the interests of black cane growers, and was the only black representative on the central board until 1953.". What's the relevance of the comment about 1951? He stayed on the board till at least 1953, and there's no reason to suppose he ceased to support black cane growers' interests at any point, is there?
    Fixed. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The NRC reconvened but again adjourned indefinitely. Its members refused to co-operate with the government, which caused it to become ineffective. The NRC never met after that point ": what year is this? If this refers to the year it was reconvened then I'd make it something like "The NRC reconvened later in 1946 but ...".
    Done. I made the year more clear. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr, the latter of whom claimed to be a follower and admirer of Luthuli": why "claimed to be" rather than "was"? Is the source ambiguous in some way?
    No I just didn't know how to re-word it. Done. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are the Hertzog Bills worth a redlink, either as a single article or individual articles for each one?
    No. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • We say violence flared towards the end of the Defiance Campaign, but then later say "absence of violence" and "lack of violence"; shouldn't these be qualified to be less definite? We say "Despite the extent of the protest and the frustration felt by the protestors, the lack of violence throughout the demonstration was a notable accomplishment": What's the connection between the two halves of this sentence? I think the intention is something like "Even though there were thousands of protesters and some incidents of violence occurred, the low level of violence overall was a notable accomplishment".
    Done. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Due to Luthuli's role in the Defiance Campaign": does this refer to anything more than his chairmanship of the Natal ANC?
    No. Should I remove it? Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe make it "Luthuli's role in the Defiance Campaign as president of the Natal ANC ..."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 23:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Defiance Campaign" subsection barely mentions Luthuli. I think a reader of this article has to understand what the campaign was, and some of the effects -- hardening of the government's attitude, increased ANC membership, cooperation among non-whites -- but do we need all of the four paragraphs here?
    Which part would you like removed? I actually think the second, third, and fourth paragraphs are important. Maybe the first can be shortened and combined with another paragraph? Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Reading through again I see why you want to keep it, but I agree the first paragraph could be shortened quite a bit. I'd also cut the mention of the Congress Alliance -- that's covered later on and there's no need to give a preview here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 23:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ANCYL had previously removed": I think this needs rephrasing. It's written as if the ANCYL had complete control over the ANC presidency; no doubt they were an influential bloc, but this should presumably say something like "The ANCYL had previously instigated the removal of" or "succeeded in removing".
    Done. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Proposed by Z. K. Matthews in 1953, The Congress of the People was envisioned as a large democratic convention where all South Africans would be invited to create a Freedom Charter. Despite complaints within the ANC by Africanists who believed the ANC should not work with other races, Luthuli contributed to the creation of the Congress Alliance." A couple of things here. First, do we need to know that Z. K. Matthews proposed the Congress of the People? Second, we don't say that the Congress of the People was a meeting/convention -- we say it was envisioned as convention, not that it actually happened. Then the next sentence doesn't refer to the Congree of the People at all, but I'm guessing that the Congress Alliance was actually created at the meeting -- if so we should say so. Reading on I'm not sure that's right, but without understanding the relationship between the CotP and the CA I'm not sure what the fix is.
    Yeah, I'm having trouble fixing this section, although I did remove the part about ZK Matthews. The Congress Alliance was made for the Congress of the People, but it wasn't created during the actual meeting. So it goes: 1953 - CotP proposed, 1953 or 1954 - Congress Alliance formed, 1955 - CotP takes place.
    I don't have access to the sources, so I can't be sure this is correct, but how about "In 1953, Z. K. Matthews proposed a large democratic convention, to be known as the Congress of the People, where all South Africans would be invited to create a Freedom Charter. Despite complaints within the ANC from Africanists who believed the ANC should not work with other races, a multiracial organization, the Congress Alliance, was created [as part of the preparation for the Congress of the People?]. The alliance was led by the ANC and included the South African Indian Congress, Coloured Peoples Conference, Federation of South African Women, Congress of Trade Unions, and the Congress of Democrats. Luthuli viewed the multiracial organisation as a way to bring freedom to South Africa. After convening a secret meeting due to Luthuli's ban, the Congress of the People took place in Kliptown, Johannesburg, in June 1955." This omits "Luthuli contributed to the creation of the Congress Alliance", which is a bit vague; can we put it back with more definite information? E.g. was he one of the organizers, or a main organizer, or was he consulted by the organizers? I've also put in brackets a bit that I'm still vague on that perhaps you can clarify from the sources -- as far as I can tell the CotP is a meeting of the CA, and the reason why the CA was formed, but the text currently doesn't come out and say that. And it's not clear in the last sentence if the "secret meeting" is the same as the Kliptown meeting, or if a secret meeting was arranged to include Luthuli, and was then followed by the main, non-secret meeting. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I added your recommendation. The source doesn't expand on Luthuli's role in forming the Congress Alliance. All it mentions was that he was the President of the ANC during the alliance's formation. You're also correct on the relationship between the Congress Alliance and the CotP. It was created in preparation of the event. The secret meeting took place in December 1954, a couple of months before the Congress of the People. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 23:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While Luthuli was still under a banning order, the ANC, led by Luthuli, announced an anti-pass campaign beginning at the end of March": The last date mentioned is May 1959 as the start of a five year ban, so it's not clear what year this refers to.
    Added the year. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He received a fine of 100 pounds and a sentence of six months in jail, which was suspended for three years under the condition that he was not found guilty of a similar offense during that time. Following his return from prison to Groutville ..." If the sentence was suspended, why was he in prison?
    He was found guilty of burning his passbook in August and then in September they lowered his sentence and gave him a suspended sentence. I updated the article for clarification. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "waiting for Leninist conditions to arise": needs to either be explained, or changed to avoid the term Leninist conditions, which most readers won't understand.
    Changed from Leninist to "revolutionary." Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Struck; I linked the phrase to revolutionary situation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You introduce MK twice as an abbreviation for uMkhonto we Sizwe but as far as I can see you never use the abbreviation in the article.
    Removed abbreviation. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to the New York Times, his nomination was put forward by Andrew Vance McCracken": is there some doubt about this? If not I don't think we need to mention the source in the article; the citation is sufficient.
    Done. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are eight sentences about his Lord Rector appointment by Glasgow University, which seems more than is needed for such a minor part of his resume. I think "After receiving a phone call from a student representative shortly after his election, Luthuli did not carry out any duties as rector" could be cut, and probably the next sentence too -- they don't add anything to what's been said earlier in the paragraph.
    Done.Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "These notes suggest that the last six months of his life were insular and focused primarily on religious matters": I don't think "insular" is the right word here; it means isolated with connotations of a lack of understanding of the wider world. I think it would be better to be explicit -- perhaps "had little contact with others during the last six months of his life", if the sources will support that.
    Done. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The scraps of paper written by Luthuli before his death would confirm this." What does this mean?
    Removed. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is Luthuli's field (and the field workers) mentioned in the account of his death? It appears to be irrelevant.
    Removed. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:04, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: I've made some edits based on your comments, but there are a few I'd like clarification on. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All struck or replied to above.

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:17, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Some of the details in the infobox don't appear to be sourced anywhere
  • The article relies heavily on book sources - could you explain your approach to ensuring that this is a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature", per WP:WIAFA?
    Books are mainly used because they are the only sources where you can find a truly comprehensive biography about Luthuli.Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 01:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

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Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:15, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With no further input I am regretfully timing this out. The usual two-week hiatus will apply. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:26, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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