Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Atlanersa/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 22 October 2019 [1].

Atlanersa

Nominator(s): Iry-Hor (talk) 11:26, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Atlanersa, a Kushite king of the kingdom of Napata in Nubia (modern day Sudan), ruling in the mid 7th century BC. The impetus for working on this article was provided by the visit to Sudan of a photograph, M. Gehricke, who then proposed to upload his pictures to wikicommons. I hope this will be the first FA article pertaining to the antiquity of a poorly covered area of Africa on wikipedia.Iry-Hor (talk) 11:26, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please review this nomination, anyone! I will answer promptly!Iry-Hor (talk) 06:46, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Mr rnddude

I'll do a prose review for the time being, will see if the requisite source review gets picked up by someone else. FAC appears to have slowed a bit, since there's a couple noms that have been up for near three months. Don't know if it's a time of the year thing, a greater influx or noms, or burnout from reviewers. Could even be a combination of the three.

General comments

Cite 76 is missing page numbers.

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

Atlanersa's most prominent construction however, [...] - As is always pointed out to me whenever I use the word, a stronger stop is needed before however. Either "[...] , however, [...]" or "[...] ; however, [...]". I believe the latter construction is preferred. This is repeated as well later in the article (twice if I counted correctly).

Done actually I removed all the instances of "however" as none were really required and all sentences read lighter without it.Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[...] which he finished and had time to partially decorate before possibly dying unexpectedly - A bit unclear here. Do you mean that he possibly died, or that his death was possibly unexpected?

Done I clarified by changing to "[...]which he finished and had time to decorate, but only partially. This suggests that he died unexpectedly.".Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Parents

An hypothesis [...] -> A hypothesis. An comes before vowel sounds: e.g An anecdote or An SMG (pronounced ess-em-jee). A before consonant sounds: hypothesis (pronounced hai-poth-a-sis).

Done it is a mistkae I keep on going, in writing as well as speaking.Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

An alternative, cultural, explanation is also possible [...] - The second comma is unneeded: An alternative, cultural explanation [...].

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[...] a young heir to the throne would be overlooked in favor of someone older until they reached maturity, and until then their right to the throne would be preserved - If I'm understanding correctly, this would basically be a regency wouldn't it?

Done Actually no because contrary to a regency, the person reigning is considered a full king and would continue to reign until he died. Only then and only if the heir is old enough, would his rights be reinstated. I clarified.Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Consorts and children

Khaliset was destined to be the mother of Atlanersa's heir as indicated by her titles but this was probably fulfilled by another of Atlanersa's consorts, queen Malotaral "mistress of Kush" and potential mother of Senkamanisken - A couple issues here. There's missing punctuation: Khaliset was destined to be the mother of Atlanersa's heir, as indicated by her titles, but this was probably fulfilled [...]. She wasn't really destined to be x if she never became x. The word "intended" would be a more apt descriptor.

Good points done.Iry-Hor (talk) 17:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At least one more queen might have been married to Atlanersa, his sister Peltasen while queens K[...] and Taba[...] may be yet further consorts of Atlanersa - The writing is somewhat awkward and repetitive, so in need of rephrasing, and particularly given that the following sentence lists yet another possible consort.

Done, see if you prefer this: "Further potential consorts of Atlanersa have been identified: his sister Peltasen and queens K[...] and Taba[...]. Finally, there is a distinct possibility that Amenirdis II, the Divine Adoratrice of Amun in Thebes was married to Atlanersa. In addition, she may have been his sister.".Iry-Hor (talk) 17:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is also possible, although uncertain [...] and [...] might have been his son, although this remains uncertain [...] - Possible means not certain, so this is redundancy. For the latter sentence, I can suggest tightening: Atlanersa's successor Senkamanisken, may have been his son, but could instead have been his brother.

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 17:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are conflicts between the infobox and the article on this subject. You list Nasalsa as "uncertain" in the infobox, but state that she is known to have been his daughter in the article body. Conversely, you list Senkamanisken as a son of Atlanersa in the infobox, but state that his parentage is uncertain in the body. You also have "Peltasen, Taba[..], K[...]" listed as, effectively, certain consorts in the IB, but "might have been" in the body.

Done woops yes I seem to have mixed up the placed of the "Uncertain" mentions in the infobox. Corrected, as per text.

Temple B700

Originally, Reisner believed the stand to be an altar - You introduce Reisner later on in the article, but it's first mentioned in the footnote. Perhaps just double up on the introductions, because, if I'm reading along with footnotes, then the first time I see Reisner, I won't (or I will, but the reader won't,) know who you're talking about.

Done a nice intro is now given to Reisner in the footnote.Iry-Hor (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

After Senkamanisken's rule however, the temple might have served as a mortuary temple for Atlanersa and, even later, for all deceased kings - Presumably you mean king's of the Napatan Kingdom?

Done yes I mean subsequent Nubian kings. Actually it is not clear in the source whether the author meant all Nubian kings including those of the Meroitic period or not. I wrote "of the Kushite kingdom" which is vague enough to correspond to the source.Iry-Hor (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tomb

Reisner's argument have been [...] - Either "argument has been" or "arguments have been".

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It produced a [...] - You mention both antechamber and burial chamber in the preceding sentence, so grammatically it is unclear that you mean the burial chamber when you use "[i]t" here. Perhaps replace "[i]t" with "[t]he latter".

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Collapse of the 25th Dynasty

[...] definitely expelling him from Upper Egypt c. 656 BC - Did you perhaps mean definitively here?

Done yes. Thanks!Iry-Hor (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all the prose comments I have for the time being. I've not been sleeping well at all in the past few days, so I've likely missed things, and will need to do a second pass later on when I'm feeling better. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:28, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mr rnddude Well I wish you to get better promptly! Thank you for your first round of review.Iry-Hor (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've revisited the article and checked in here. Moving to support. Mr rnddude (talk) 22:45, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Aoba47

For the following parts ("reigning for about a decade in the mid 7th century BC", "Atlanersa is the only Kushite king of the mid 7th century BC", "Atlanersa reigned for a decade in the mid 7th century BC"), I believe there should be dashes for "mid-7th-century".

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For this sentence "The pyramid produced many small artefacts which are now on display in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.", I believe the museum's name is just "the Museum of Fine Arts" and Boston is included in the Wikipedia title to disambiguate it from other similarly titled museums. I would rephrase the final part to "which are now on display in the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston."

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am uncertain about the placement of the following sentence "He may also have started a funerary chapel in the same locality, now called Nuri 500." It follows right after the sentence on the Boston museum so it is somewhat jarring to jump back to talking about an Egyptian locale, particularly with the phrasing "in the same locality". I am assuming that phrasing is meant to refer back to the necropolis of Nuri?

Fixed Yes I meant in Nuri. I have changed the sentence and its location in the lede to "He built a pyramid in the necropolis of Nuri, now conjecturally believed to be Nuri 20 and may also have started a funerary chapel in the same necropolis, now called Nuri 500. Atlanersa was the second Nubian king to built a pyramid in Nuri after Taharqa.". I hope this fixes the issue.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could this part "which he finished and had time to decorate, but only partially" be reduced down to "which he finished and had time to only partially decorate" to be somewhat more concise?

Done thanks this is much better.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It may be useful to wikilink pylon in this part "Atlanersa's mother was a queen who appeared on a pylon scene".

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why is "[...]salka" put in italics in the body of the article, but it is not done the same way in the lead or the infobox?

Done it is mistake, it should not be in italic. Fixed.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful work so far. I have only gotten through the lead and the first section as I want to try my best to thoroughly review the article. I am not familiar with African history at all so apologies in advance if I have overlooked anything. I will try to get through the rest of the article this week. I hope my comments are helpful. Aoba47 (talk) 01:20, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47 Thanks for your comments, I am looking forward to your next observations!Iry-Hor (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have a clarification question about this part "Foundation tablets bearing Atlanersa's name show that he started a temple dedicated to Osiris Dedwen", specifically "Osiris Dedwen". After clicking on both the wikilinks, they appear to be separate gods, but again, I have absolutely no familiarity with this kind of history. Is this phrase referencing one god/figure?

Done This is an example of syncretism. The ancient Egyptian relgion (and more generally religions of the Ancient world) were very fluid and allowed for the merging of gods: here Dedwen, a god originating from Upper Nubia was assimilated with Osiris by being perceived to be a local form of Osiris. This phenomenon happened throughout Egypt and can perhaps be related with the Middle Ages tendency to do the same with "Maria, Our Lady of...". I have added a link to syncretism just before the mention of Osiris-Dedwen in the text and in the lede.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:22, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the response, and apologies again for my ignorance on the matter. Aoba47 (talk) 06:29, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What does "fine" mean in this context: "A fine stand" and "a fine alabaster votive tablet"?

Fixed It means "of very high quality". I have removed these as, while they are supported by the sources, they are subjective judgments.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:22, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If it is technical term, then it should be alright for inclusion. Thank you for the clarification. Aoba47 (talk) 06:29, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This part "weighing over 8 t (8.8 short tons) it is made of a single block of granite." reads like a separate sentence, and I believe there should be a comma after "(8.8 short tons)". Aoba47 (talk) 18:53, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done I made two sentences and changed to ". The stand is made of a single block of granite weighing over 8 t (8.8 short tons).". I hope this addresses this round of comments Aoba47.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:22, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Aoba47 (talk) 06:29, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for addressing everything. Although I am by no means a subject expert, I believe the article's prose meets the FA criteria. I have not looked at the sources or images so I am just basing my comments on the prose. I support this for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 12:43, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by A. Parrot (Support)

I'll do a detailed review, including spot-checks, over the weekend. For now I can say that the sources used are all of high quality. Some are old, but at first glance it looks like the older sources are appropriately balanced with the current ones. A. Parrot (talk) 04:02, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've done several spot-checks, including all those to Pope, Dodson & Hilton, Reisner, and Török 1997, and everything seems in order except for two points.

The more minor one is that Citation 45 is based on a sentence that's divided between two pages, so it would make sense to change it to pp. 237–238.

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The more major one is "Reisner's arguments have been broadly accepted", which is cited to a source from 1949, closer to Reisner's time than to ours. Do any of the more recent sources state that Reisner's view is the consensus, or do they simply take it for granted that he was right? If they take it for granted and Dunham and Macadam are the only ones who state it explicitly, you could keep the citation to Dunham and Macadam and supplement it with another that simply assumes the pyramid is Atlanersa's.

Done I have added a footnote with a more recent source. What happens is that Dunham and Macadam state that they agree with Reisner's argument, and from there on virtually all sources talking about Nuri 20 attribute it to Atlanersa without any discussion. So I have added the latest non-Dunham reference on the matter: Fontes by Török et al.

Beyond that, I have several points about the text:

The lead mentions the loss of control of Egypt in Atlanersa's time, but Török's point about the cultural transformation of Kush also seems worth mentioning in the lead.

Done I added " The same period also saw the progressive cultural integration of Egyptian concepts by the Kushite civilization" to the lede.

"…one of which was effectively put in place" feels rather unclear; perhaps "one of which was completed and set in place"?

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"a queen […]salka" will probably puzzle some readers. Perhaps "a queen whose name is only partially preserved"?

Done in the first instance of this in the lede. I kept the [...]salka in the text.Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Atlanersa was the son of king Taharqa or less probably of his immediate predecessor Tantamani." There's a slight ambiguity in the sentence about whether "his" refers to Taharqa or Tantamani.

Fixed I replaced "his" with "Atlanersa's".Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note 2 seems significant enough to move into the main text, which isn't terribly long.

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"…this was probably fulfilled by another of Atlanersa's consorts, Queen Malotaral 'mistress of Kush' and potential mother of Senkamanisken" feels a bit awkward. Perhaps something like "…but it may have been another of Atlanersa's consorts, Malotaral 'mistress of Kush', who was mother to Atlanersa's heir Sekamanisken"?

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The colossal statue at B700 and its current location are mentioned in the lead, but it's not mentioned in the section on the temple, and its current location isn't mentioned anywhere in the body text.

Fixed, well spotted. I added this to the text: "A colossal statue of Atlanersa was placed on the western side of the temple entrance, where it was discovered by Reisner, albeit toppled with its head cut-off. It is now in the National Museum of Sudan".Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The advancement of the temple…" I'm sure that "advancement" isn't the right word here, but I'm not sure what to change it to, or whether to do a more extensive rewording of the first half of the sentence.

Done I changed to "The progression of the temple construction suggests that...".Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The obelisk is at Old Dongola, not Dongola; I changed the body text to reflect that. I think Egyptological sources sometimes use "Dongola" to refer to the old site as well as the new one, which is why I haven't changed the section heading, but given that the two sites are 80 kilometers apart, I think it would be best to change the heading as well.

Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A. Parrot I hope this addresses your comments.Iry-Hor (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support. A. Parrot (talk) 05:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

Could we have another image on the left, per MOS:IMAGES: "Multiple images can be staggered right and left."?

Fixed I put all images on the right: I tried two images on the left and it looked weird to me. I can change back to two images on the left if you want.Iry-Hor (talk) 12:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ho hum. Well, I like the way you have arranged the images, even if it doesn't meet the MoS. So let's IAR and see if antone else says anything.

Alt text for the infobox image?

DoneIry-Hor (talk) 12:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"File:Barque stand Atlanersa.png" I am unsure how the Source can be "own work", when it is stated that the photograph was taken in 1916 by George Andrew Reisner. (Reisner has been dead for over 70 years, so it is potentially taggable as out of copyright.)

Done: Well, I am indeed not Reisner, this is a stupid mistake on my behalf: clearly I did not pay attention when uploading. I changed the self license tag to PD-old and PD-US tags and listed Reisner as the author and source. Gog the Mild I hope this will be sufficient.Iry-Hor (talk) 12:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Caption, B700: could we add ", Boston"?

Done I wrote "in Boston"Iry-Hor (talk) 12:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Caption, Scarab of Atlanersa: could we add ", Paris"?

DoneIry-Hor (talk) 12:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As Sudan does not have freedom of panorama there needs to be a tag indicating the topic's copyright status for "File:Barque stand Atlanersa.png", "File:Pyramid Atlanersa Nuri 20.jpg" and "File:TombosQuarryIncompleteStatue.jpg". (I suspect that this is pro forma.)

Well I am lost there, what tag do we need ? I looked at other Sudan pictures on wikicommons and did not find a specific tag to add, for example this picture, used on wikipedia, of a place in Sudan does not have anything specific other than the self tag.Iry-Hor (talk) 12:53, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You must be right. There are outdoor panoramas from Sudan classed as valued images, without an additional tag - eg File:Western Deffufa - Kerma.jpg. I am not sure why, but it seems to set a precedence.

Passing. A grand looking article. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:39, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 11:45, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lingzhi

Some warnings etc in references:
- Kitchen, Kenneth A. (1986). The Third Intermediate Period in Egypt (1100–650 B.C.) (2nd ed.). Missing Publisher Location; Missing Publisher;

Done Iry-Hor (talk) 06:55, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Reisner, George Andrew (1918). "Preliminary Report on the Harvard-Boston excavation at Nûri: the kings of Ethipia after Tirhaqa". In Bates, Oric (ed.). Varia Africana II. 2. Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? Missing Publisher Location; Missing Publisher; Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC;

Done added all missing info except p. numbers: it is an entire book, 64 pages long.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:55, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Morkot, Robert (1999). "Kingship and Kinship in the Empire of Kush". In Wenig, Steffen (ed.). Studien zum.. Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter?

Done added all missing info.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Zibelius-Chen, Karola (2012). "II. 12. The Chronology of Nubian Kingdoms from Dyn. 25 to the end of the Kingdom of Meroe". In Hornung, Erik; Krauss, Rolf; Warburton, David (eds.). Ancient Egyptian... Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 22:53, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done added all missing info.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hope this answers your concerns Lingzhi2.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Cas Liber

Reading now...

~~Atlanersa's name was present on a scene inscribed on the front pylon of the temple, now completely destroyed~~ ~~- err, how do we know it was there if it is now destroyed?~~

Done I added a footnote with an explanation: the pylon was still standing in the mid 19th century at which point several drawings were made. The pylon was destroyed between 1830 and 1916 as the temple was used as a quarry by local people.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:48, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Damn private rock-needers Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:32, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~The advancement of the temple suggests that Atlanersa died unexpectedly~~ ~~- I don't follow this..~~

Clarified The temple building was finished and its decoration almost completely so but not totally. The source deduces that the end of the decoration works were interrupted by the death of the king. I wrote: "The advancement of the temple suggests that Atlanersa died unexpectedly, shortly after completing the construction works and the decoration of the two interior rooms, as attested by the presence of his name there, but before completing the decoration of the exterior. This task was finished under Senkamanisken [...]"Iry-Hor (talk) 06:48, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aha ok, that makes sense Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:32, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~Contrary to his predecessors and successors, Atlanersa is the only ....uncovered there~~ ~~- any speculation as to why this is the case? Even if no idea that is worth adding (if someone has said it)~~

Unfortunately only one source points this fact out and they don't elaborate on it. I should add that virtually all existing information pertaining to Atlanersa is given in this article.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:48, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I figured that might be the case but just wanted to confirm. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:32, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~Otherwise~~ looks pretty good ~~on first read-through~~ Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:16, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Casliber I am looking forward to your next comments (should you have any!).Iry-Hor (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All good on comprehensiveness and prose Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:32, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Minor comment from Hamiltonstone (Settled)

Under Collapse of the 25th Dynasty, it says "Taharqa and Tantamani had lost control of Lower Egypt, which passed under the power of Assyrian vassals..." I have two quibbles. One is the phrase "passed under the power" - I would have thought "came under the power" or "power passed to" would be more correct. But my main concern is how a lay reader is to understand the word "vassal" here. Can you please look at the WP article vassal (which says it is about a term "in the context of the feudal system in medieval Europe"), and have a think about how best to explain to a person outside the field what is being said in this sentence? hamiltonstone (talk) 10:04, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

hamiltonstone Done. I wrote in a footnote: "Scholars working on this time period use the word "vassal" to designate kinglets designated by more powerful kings to reign in their stead over a region or locality. Vassals of the Assyrian emperor, such as Necho I were expected to pay tribute to the king and rally troops with the Assyrians as necessary." plus a reference using the word vassal.Iry-Hor (talk) 10:12, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

have copyedited the note, and thank you. Note to coordinator - I'm not reading full article in detail, so not seeking to support / oppose etc. just wanted that clarified! hamiltonstone (talk) 10:45, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. --Laser brain (talk) 10:16, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.