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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/August Meyszner/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 23:26, 10 March 2017 [1].

August Meyszner

edit
Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:11, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about August Meyszner, a former gendarmerie officer and right-wing politician in Austria who travelled to Nazi Germany and joined the SS soon after Hitler's rise to power. After a series of police postings he was appointed by Heinrich Himmler as the head of the SS security and police organs in German-occupied Serbia, a position he held for two years. He was responsible for carrying out of numerous reprisal killings of civilians, the sending of tens of thousands of forced labourers to Germany and other occupied territories, and oversaw the killing of 8,000 Jewish women and children using a gas van. Sidelined in early 1944, he was captured by the Allies at the end of the war and extradited back to Yugoslavia, where he was tried and executed for war crimes. He has been described as one of Himmler's most brutal lieutenants. The article went through Milhist A-Class review in September 2015 and has been tweaked recently in preparation for this nomination. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:11, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 01:50, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dan, as always! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:39, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - figure legends that contain a finite verb should end with a period. Graham Beards (talk) 14:25, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Graham thanks. I think I got them all. Would you mind checking? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:07, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support - for an engaging, good read and subject to a satisfactory image review. But can we do something about a few fused participles? They are becoming common these days in spoken English (especially the BBC), and I might be flogging a dead donkey but they look ugly to me in prose:

  • with a Military Commander in Serbia being responsible for the military administration
  • with Kuntze's chief of staff describing Meyszner
  • with the men sending long letters of complaint to each other

How about using a simple past tense? "and a Military Commander in Serbia was responsible..." "and Kuntze's chief of staff described" "and the men sent long letters".

Alternatively, sometimes just dumping the "with" works well.

No big deal. Graham Beards (talk) 00:45, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a crack at it, hopefully it is an improvement! Thanks for the review. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:59, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with the changes. By the way, you are a far better writer than I am; it's always easier to criticise than to create. Graham Beards (talk) 01:14, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're very kind, Graham. I am always keen to have input from editors who have a better grasp of grammar than I... Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:25, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Comments - taking a look now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:07, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Meyszner's time in Belgrade was characterised by friction and competition with German military, economic and foreign affairs officials and by his visceral hatred and distrust of Serbs. - this sentence flows a bit oddly with the "his" halfway along, but I can't think of an easier way to say it.
Same, I struggled with it too. I've added a comma to break up the two ideas.
With the outbreak of war, Meyszner started being appointed to more senior positions - the "started being appointed" is ungainly. Maybe "After war broke out, Meyszner was appointed to more senior positions" or maybe "Meyszner's career took off" or some other way of wording it...
Done.
Is there any further info on his marriage? Did Pia remain with him this whole time? up till he was executed?
No, no more information on his family circumstances in any of the sources.
Aah well. Probably for the best really. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:53, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looking good though and on target to pass I think Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:53, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Cas Liber! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:22, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note -- feel free to seek source review, PM. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:42, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now. There are some issues to be dealt with and I can look up the article by Moll and other sources only next week. The following claims seem questionable:

  • Arrested shortly after the July Putsch was launched by the Bavarian branch of the German Nazi Party, during which Dollfuss was assassinated, Does Moll really say that "the Bavarian branch of the German Nazi Party" launched the July Putsch? Literature has it that the coup was mainly engineered by the Viennese SS and Theo Habicht with Hitler behind the scenes. Many putschists were members of the Styrian Heimatschutz. Or does that refer to the Austrian Legion (Österreichische Legion) being trained in Bavaria?
  • The July Putsch is still subject of research. Research more recent than Parkinson's (Hans Schafranek and Kurt Bauer) keeps the debate ongoing. Hans Schafranek has argued that the Styrian Heimatschutz conspired with the Landesleitung against the Austrian SA under Hermann Reschny to support the Putsch in Vienna. Schafranek explictly points to the cooperation of Kammerhofer and Meyszner with SS-Gruppenführer Rodenbücher who helped them to reach influential positions and high SS ranks after coup had failed. See his essay: - SS-Wölfe im SA-Pelz in the Austrian newspaper Der Standard.
There is more literature on that. Schafranek edited Vom NS-Verbot zum »Anschluss« : Steirische Nationalsozialisten 1933 – 1938 (2015). An important and award winning work is by Christiane Rothländer, Die Anfänge der Wiener SS (2012). As interesting as that issue is, however, that may lead too far in the context of a Wikipedia article. Thus I would only say, that "the July Putsch was launched" (without names) and hint to Schafranek's research (either referenced to the Standard-article or I can provide a citation to Schafranek's book Sommerfest mit Preisschiessen if needed), because that helps to explain Meyszner's later career.--Assayer (talk) 02:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I've added a bit, please check that I have understood Schafranek correctly. I didn't want to get into too much detail, and there are only a couple of direct references to Meyszner in the article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. I have added the SS and Rauter. There is one more thing, however: The Steirischer Heimatschutz was part of the Heimwehr, but not pars pro toto. The Heimwehr was led by Ernst Rüdiger Starhemberg who actively supported Dollfuß and integrated the Heimwehr into the Fatherland Front. The Styrian Home Guard, however, joined forces with the Nazis. Thus Steirischer Heimatschutz should not link to the Heimwehr article, unless that article elaborates the differences, which is (so far) not the case.--Assayer (talk) 01:10, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've redlinked it for now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:59, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is noted the Meyszner became a member of the Austrian Nazi party as early as 1925. But it is also claimed that his conversion to Nazi thinking was demonstrated by an anti-Jewish diatribe in the Landestag in April 1933. How can someone demonstrate his "conversion" in 1933, when he has been a Nazi since 1925? A "conversion" from what? At the same time the Heimatblock for which Meyszner was a deputy is not mentioned. Let me know if I should help out with some special literature. One thing is for sure, however, not only the Nazi party, but also the Heimatblock were declared illegal in 1933.
  • Moll says "Meyszner war vollständig auf die NS-Linie eingeschwenkt; dies äußerte sich etwa in seiner im April 1933 im Landtag gehaltenen Brandrede gegen die angebliche jüdische Überflutung Wiens." You can demonstrate your views at any time, it doesn't have to be at the time you were converted. I've seen no source that says he was anti-Semitic prior to that speech, although he may well have been. Do you have a suggested alternative wording based on the German? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:51, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    As Moll noted on p. 255, for reasons unknown Meyszner's early membership in the Austrian Nazi party had been terminated at some point. He was not transferred into the NSDAP in 1938. According to Lilla, Meyszner joined the Nazi party in 1943. The speech, quoted by Moll on p. 258, is put into context by Pauley, Hahnenschwanz und Hakenkreuz (Wien, 1972), p. 156f.. Pauley explains that the Styrian Heimatschutz under Kammerhofer posited itself against Nazism as late as January 1933, whether for tactical reasons or not, to keep his organization intact. Once Kammerhofer announced a closer cooperation between the Styrian Heimatschutz and the Nazis, Meyszner held his antisemitic speech (that he was an antisemite anyway goes without saying, given his pangerman outlook and his membership in völkisch organizations). I would translate it as if Meyszner had completely switched to the approach [or: the path] of the National Socialists.--Assayer (talk) 02:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, I'm not sure what you are saying about his Nazi Party membership. I understand Moll says that he joined the Austrian Nazi Party in September 1925, and that he believed that due to the Venice Agreement, he had a low (pre-Hitler's seizure of power) pan-German Nazi Party number from when the Styrian Home Guard was absorbed by the Nazi Party. Bormann disagreed and Himmler had to intervene to ensure Meyszner received the Golden Party Badge. If Lilla disagrees with Moll regarding this, I'll compare and contrast the two sources, as we would usually do. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:45, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nicely done. There is no disagreement between Lilla and Moll. Meyszner and other leaders of the Styrian Home Guard insisted that they had been members of the NSDAP since the Venice agreement, but the Nazi Party did not accept that. The conflict is also described by Pauley. Walter Oberhaidacher, Gauleiter of the Styrian Nazi party, and Franz Xaver Schwarz. Schatzmeister of the NSDAP, decided to ignore the agreement. In 1943 Meyszner agreed to receive membership as of June 1938 and thus received the (honorary) Golden Party Badge. Would he have had a low party membership number (under 100.000), he would have been entitled to the regular Golden Party Badge and there were more benefits for "Alte Kämpfer". On the other hand, the honorary Badge brought automatic membership with it. So Meyszner joined the Nazi party in 1943. It is unclear, however, when Meyszner lost his membership in the Austrian Nazi Party. Maybe because of the split of the Austrian Nazi Party in 1926? But I am just guessing. --Assayer (talk) 01:10, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no website "Der deutsche Reichstag, 1936: 3. Wahlperiode nach d. 30. Jan. 1933" [The German Reichstag, 1936 Third Legislature from 30 January 1933]. Münchener Digitalisierungszentrum [Munich Digitization Centre] (in German). Bayerischen Staatsbibliothek [Bavarian State Library]. 1936. Retrieved 16 May 2015. The publication being cited (in digitized version) is Ernst Kienast, ed.: Der Großdeutsche Reichstag 1938: IV. Wahlperiode (nach dem 30. Januar 1933). Berlin: R. v. Decker's Verlag, G.Schenck, 1938, p. 316. As a reference work this primary source has been superseded very much by Joachim Lilla et al., ed., Statisten in Uniform: Die Mitglieder des Reichstags 1933-1945. Ein biographisches Handbuch. Düsseldorf: Droste, 2004. I can look that up next week also and provide a scan if desired.
  • Thanks for that. I've fixed the citation, but the material cited to it is pretty pedestrian biographical information, so an exceptional source is not needed, even assuming that you have a source for your statement that it has been superseded by Lilla et al. If Lilla et al has more detail, of course I would welcome access to it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:06, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lilla's book is a standard reference book with more details. If you drop me a note by email, I will mail you the text (two pages in pdf-format). It's not in prose, but mainly consists of dates.--Assayer (talk) 02:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are some issues which can be dealt with immediately, because the literature has already been used:

  • The article follows Christopher Browning's discussion of the murder of the Jews in Serbia with the help of a gas van, but skips the discussion of the same sources by Menachem Shelach: Sajmiste - An extermination Camp in Serbia in: Holocaust Genocide Stud. 1987;2(2):243-60. and Manoschek, p. 170f. In the closing section it is: According to Moll that Schäfer had claimed that he had received the orders and gas van directly from Berlin and had carried out the killings with little reference to Meyszner.[73] Manoschek accepts Schäfer's assertion, stating that Schäfer also had an independent Gestapo chain of command, over which Meyszner had very limited control. But Schäfer's claims, which he made during a trial, are also cited by Manoschek, so why is it According to Moll, whereas Moll also must have known what is referenced to Manoschek? Moll has written about 15 years later than Manoschek. Doesn't he discuss the evidence?
  • Perhaps it is not a contentious point given that both authors agree, so would be better not to attribute in-text to the sources, but to reword it in WP's voice as "Schäfer claimed that he had received the orders and gas van directly from Berlin, and had carried out the killings with little reference to Meyszner. Schäfer also had an independent Gestapo chain of command, over which Meyszner had very limited control." What do you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:28, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moll devoted the larger part of his essay on Meyszner as HSSPF in occupied Serbia. I will have to work with Moll's text more closely, but he notes that there is some historiographical debate, whether Turner described his own role in organizing the murder of the Serbian Jews correctly. (p.313) So the question is: What was Meyszner's role and responsibility? And that is answered differently by historians.--Assayer (talk) 02:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Germany and the Second World War is a collection of essays/studies and should be cited as such. The contribution that is cited here is by Hans Umbreit: Towards Continental Dominion.
  • The prose at times seems odd, particularly when the article deals with the complicated situation in former Yugoslavia/occupied Serbia: inserted into a political maelstrom of conflicting lines of command and authority. or Meyszner's appointment further complicated an already complex situation. At the same time the different concepts of occupation rule like "supervisory administration" (see Marzower) vs. Himmler's (and Hitler's) distrust of the Serbs as a Slav people is not pointed out.
  • I'm not sure what you mean here. It is well-established in the literature that the lines of command, control and communication in occupied Serbia were among the most convoluted in occupied Europe, and I have attempted to reflect that in the prose. I don't think it is necessary in biographical article to fully explain the administrative set-up in Serbia and the various conflicting currents among the security and police, military, diplomatic and economic sections of the German administration in order to understand how Meyszner fitted into it and how he eventually came unstuck. The place for the full explanation of all of that is the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia article, which makes a fair attempt at explaining it all in some detail. Meyszner's rivalry with Turner, double-dealing with Bader, and implacable opposition to empowering the Serbian puppet regime are all explained in this article, as they are all germane to his biography. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:28, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I understand Marzower and Umbreit correctly, Meyszner was sent to Serbia by Himmler for a reason, namely to enforce a different kind of occupation regime, that is, different from what was Turner's idea. Thus this is less about a "political maelstrom" or further complications, but about a power struggle which of course gets complicated, not at least, because Himmler and Hitler apparently changed their minds here and then. --Assayer (talk) 02:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it would be more accurate to say that he was sent to reinforce the existing military occupation regime, which was at odds with what Turner wanted to do (ie create a civilian-led Reichskommissariat with himself at the helm, or later, to empower the Serb puppet regime, which Neubacher later continued even after Turner's removal). According to Mazower, Himmler argued Turner and the Wehrmacht weren't being tough enough. I've added that in. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:45, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • He travelled widely, meeting Nazi leaders in Hungary and Yugoslavia.[10] Consequently, in February 1934 he was interned in Wöllersdorf camp for three-and-a-half months for Nazi activities. I do not think, that it was because of his travels that Meyszner was interned at Wöllersdorf, which was, btw, a concentration camp rather than a detention centre.
  • Poor prose. Fixed by removing "Consequently". I had called it a detention camp (Anhaltelager), which I believe is what the source says, but you are right, in English sources it is commonly known as Wöllersdorf concentration camp. Addressed in the lead and body. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:28, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In general I think that these issues can be dealt with and it is nice to see that a rather rare academic work by a specialist of Styrian Nazism like Martin Moll is being used. Regards, --Assayer (talk) 00:14, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm always happy to improve the article where possible with additional sources. There are probably prose fixes that will address a couple of the points. I'll work through them one at a time, and look forward to seeing any additional sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:28, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay, but now I have access to most of the sources. Most serious issue: Moll's essay is pp. 249-318 of Danubiana Carpathica. There is something wrong with the footnotes.--Assayer (talk) 02:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you are looking at, but I got a PDF copy from someone at WP:RX that has the article beginning on p. 239 and finishing on p. 308, it has the journal title and volume etc at the bottom of the first page. I'll email you what I'm working off, so we are looking at the same thing. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:19, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Assayer I've emailed you the version of Moll I'm using, so you can see where the citations come from. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:08, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank's. It seems as if you used an advance or proof copy. The ToC can be found on the website of the journal.(PDF) I sent you my copy and a copy of the Meyszner entry in Lilla's handbook. Let me know what you think of it. Regards, --Assayer (talk) 01:43, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've now fixed the pagination for Moll. I'll give my eyes a rest and finish up with adding what there is from Lilla. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:18, 12 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Assayer please advise if you have anything further. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:56, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I will have access to some further sources by tomorrow and will work myself through the article again by the end of the week. Thank you for your patience. --Assayer (talk) 19:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: Assayer, how are things looking for you at the moment? Sarastro1 (talk) 23:27, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1: I am currently working on it by rewriting de:August Meyszner based upon the same sources and checking it against this article during the process. So we are talking about days.--Assayer (talk) 23:38, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
G'day Assayer, I don't believe there are grounds for maintaining your opposition to this article's promotion just because you are writing an article on another wiki and wish to check it against this one. I believe all the substantive comments you have made have been addressed and your opposition should be dropped. If not, I believe the @FAC coordinators: should consider promoting it despite your opposing !vote. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:52, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I was not able to edit in the Wikipedia due to much more urgent and pressing obligations. But you are right, that I already took too much time in reviewing this. My only excuse is that a thorough review takes its time. So I did a final review, during which the following came up:

  • According to the German historian Martin Moll, Meyszner's attendance at this conference highlighted his suitability for working in the German-occupied territory of Serbia due to his relevant language skills. Martin Moll is an Austrian historian and he does not mention Meyszner's "relevant language skills" which are dubious anyway. Maybe this is a misunderstanding of the term "kam zur Sprache" = i.e., was discussed?
  • The Military Commander in Serbia was responsible for the military administration and the Plenipotentiary Commanding General in Serbia was responsible for military operations against the insurgents. That's not quite correct. The Bevollmächtigter Kommandierender General und Befehlshaber Serbien Franz Böhme was superior to the Befehlshaber Serbien Heinrich Danckelmann. After Danckelmann left in October 1941, Böhme also filled the office of Befehlshaber Serbien, but when Meyszner arrived in Serbia, he had already been replaced (December 1941) by the Kommandierender General Höheres Kommando z.b.V. LXV Paul Bader, who became Kommandierender General und Befehlshaber Serbien by March 1942.
  • A decisive factor in Himmler's final decision was undoubtedly the fact... it should be added that this is Moll's interpretation.
  • On 8 November 1942, Turner and his deputy Georg Kiessel were finally forced out - Moll gives the date 7 November 1942 (p. 286) Umbreit gives the date 5 January 1943 (Germany & the Second World War, Vol5/2, p. 39) I believe the latter to be a mistake.
  • Turner was succeeded by his legal department chief, Walter Uppenkamp contradicts, when Neuhausen was appointed as chief of the military administration staff, replacing Turner In fact, Uppenkamp was replaced by Egon Bönner of whom Neuhausen took over. (Tomasevich 2001, p. 76)
  • It should be mentioned that the former Styrian Home Guard members had not been accepted as members by the NSDAP party office (i.e. Reichsschatzmeister Franz Xaver Schwarz, not Bormann) after the Munich agreement of March 1934 (here Moll is not precise; see Pauley) and thus technically were not members of the party. It was Schwarz who determined the membership even in 1943, not Bormann, to whom Himmler wrote for help.
    • Assayer can you clarify what the source is for this? Pauley? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:46, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's Moll. Take a closer look: Moll talks about the "Reichsschatzmeister der NSDAP", which was Schwarz and about Himmler writing to Bormann. The latter was Leiter der Partei-Kanzlei and may have intervened. It is not at all clear, however, if Bormann really did intervene. Moll writes, that Meyszner, in contrast to Rauter, acquiesced, but doesn't mention Bormann any further. For the background of this conflict one has to turn to Pauley, cited above, pp. 181-184. There is an English edition, but I didn't have access to that.--Assayer (talk) 18:46, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The whole paragraph dealing with Neubacher's policies is based upon Tomasevich 1975. It is contradicted by Moll, pp. 304-310. For example, Tomasevich follows Neubacher's claim that he was responsible for a drastic reduction on the policy of mass reprisals. Moll is critical of that. (p. 308)

Except for the last issue, on which you might want to comment, these are minor points which can be dealt with quickly. Thus I struck out my opposing vote already.--Assayer (talk) 20:22, 4 March 2017 (UTC) @FAC coordinators: I think this is ready for promotion now. All of Assayer's points have been addressed. See what you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:17, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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