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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Born to Run/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 5 September 2024 [1].

Born to Run

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Nominator(s): – zmbro (talk) (cont) 14:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... Bruce Springsteen's third studio album Born to Run. A make a break record for the singer-songwriter, it's easy to say he made it (very well). Now regarded by many as his magnum opus (although this editor would argue Darkness on the Edge of Town or Nebraska), I rewrote this article from the ground up and after its GAN it went through a helpful peer review and I believe it's now ready for the star. I'm looking forward to any comments or concerns. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 14:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D

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It's great to see an article on a major popular music album here instead of the more common FACs on modern pop. I'd like to offer the following comments:

  • " was designed to break him into the mainstream" - bit clunky
  • "the band and producers spent six months alone working on the title track" - seems like trivia for the lead
  • I would say otherwise because it displays how "prolonged and grueling" the sessions were; plus, most songs did not take that long to record, especially at the time. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Springsteen's lack of direction and confidence" - this appears out of the blue after text that stresses that Springsteen was ambitious about the record
  • Removed confidence
  • "Springsteen was sent multiple mixes as he was on the road and rejected all of them, approving the final one in early August." - this needs to be tweaked: if he rejected all of them how could he have approved one?
  • "such as a road can take you anywhere" - I suspect that a 'that' is missing here
  • Fixed
  • ""Born to Run" uses an automobile to escape from a depressing life" - this is unclear
  • "The success of Born to Run revitalized Springsteen's career" - this is unclear given the article previously stresses that the album led Springsteen to move from relative obscurity into stardom.
  • Same issue with that. 'Saved' seems appropriate if it's what the sources used (though it's hard to believe that Springsteen wouldn't have had a decent chance of making a successful music career given his skills). Nick-D (talk) 10:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Had the album been performed live in total before 2008?
  • Not that I could find. Setlists for the Born to Run tours are hard to find. I know he has performed all the songs from Born to Run quite often since 1975, but the album itself in order front to back I could not find. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Apologises for my slow response here - I was travelling and the pings fell through the cracks. Those changes look good, and I think that the FA criteria are met. Nick-D (talk) 11:25, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by ChrisTheDude

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  • "By 1974 his popularity was limited to United States East Coast" => "By 1974 his popularity was limited to the East Coast of the United States"
  • "Low morale plagued Springsteen's team, including both his manager, Mike Appel, and the E Street Band" => "Low morale plagued Springsteen's team, including both his manager, Mike Appel, and his backing band the E Street Band"
  • Changed to "backing group" so we're not saying band twice
  • "Bittan had a background in symphony orchestra" => "Bittan had a background in symphony orchestras"
  • "Bittan mostly replaced Federici on the album, whose sole contribution" => "On the album Bittan mostly replaced Federici, whose sole contribution"
  • "The stunt generated interest the track" => "The stunt generated interest in the track"
  • "a long saxophone solo from Clemons, which he spent 16 hours replaying to Springsteen's satisfaction;[71] he dictated almost every note played" - it's ambiguous who the "he" is in the last part
  • Clarified it's the latter
  • "The seven known outtakes from the album included" - using "included" doesn't really work when you then list all seven. Change "included" to "are"
  • "The song contains autobiographical elements to Springsteen's youth" - don't think the grammar works here. Maybe "The song contains autobiographical elements related to Springsteen's youth".......?
  • "Following his demise, death and destruction continues across the streets" => "Following his demise, death and destruction continue across the streets"
  • "Springsteen's guitar strap dons an Elvis Presley pin" - I don't think an inanimate object can really "don" something. Maybe "On Springsteen's guitar strap is an Elvis Presley pin"
  • Changed to "An Elvis Presley pin appears on Springsteen's guitar strap,"
  • "The cover was included in a Rolling Stone readers poll" => "The cover was included in a Rolling Stone readers' poll"
  • "receiving both critical praiseand from former Columbia Records president Clive Davis" => "receiving praise both from critics and from former Columbia Records president Clive Davis"
  • "and moved different studios" - should this be "and moved to different studios"? "and moved between different studios"? I doubt he physically moved the studios........
  • Clarified 'between'

Ceoil

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Placeholder. Was part of the PR and intend to continue the review, but it may be a few days. Ceoil (talk) 21:45, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil Friendly reminder :-) – zmbro (talk) (cont) 18:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the co-ords re this timing out; I'm a likely support but haven't had the chance to re-look since the PR. Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I said my piece at the PR, where my main concerns were addressed. Support especially given all the work from other reviewers below. Ceoil (talk) 05:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Moise

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Placeholder for me too. I'll try to start my review soon. Moisejp (talk) 06:14, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should be able to get started this weekend. Moisejp (talk) 04:29, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (as usual, I'll add them as I go along, in some cases one at a time):

  • "The band went back and forth between studio recording and live performances." This could be clearer. What exactly does "go back and forth between" mean here? Does live performances that aren't in the studio mean concert performances? Maybe it means some kind of jamming (because it says Springsteen used these to develop new material)? Moisejp (talk) 06:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes concert performances. To me it's clear but I can see how you got confused. Clarified.
  • "Bittan had a background in symphony orchestras and had previously known of Springsteen's music, but Weinberg had not and had experience with various rock bands and Broadway productions." A bit awkward overall. "Weinberg had not" presumably is only referring to "had previously known of Springsteen's music" but it's not totally clear. In a way "experience with various rock bands and Broadway productions" emphasizes the rock/Broadway vs. symphony, which may suggest "Weinberg had not" is also about the symphony, which sounds like an unusual thing to say. Moisejp (talk) 07:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Separated them into different sentences.
  • "The songs themselves feature introductions that set the tone and scene for each." Maybe specify the kind of introduction this is referring to, I imagined you meant extended musical bits before the singing starts. Moisejp (talk) 14:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added "musical"

Thanks, Zmbro. I've finished my first read-through. I'll be busy the next few days but hope to get back to this review later in the week. Thanks! Moisejp (talk) 04:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose and comprehensiveness. I did another read-through and am now satisfied the article meets the requirements. Moisejp (talk) 22:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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No, I'd say this is the realest Springsteen album. Before he really went commercial and then political ....

My comments:

  • "The album cover, featuring Springsteen leaning on E Street Band saxophonist Clarence Clemons's shoulder, is considered iconic and has been recreated by various musicians and in other media." I'm not sure recreated is the word. Maybe (not sure) imitated?
  • Changed to imitated
  • "By 1974 his popularity was limited to East Coast of the United States," Should be a "the" in there.
  • Fixed
  • "the then upcoming artist Billy Joel" this should probably have a hyphen somewhere in it.
  • Fixed
  • "the label conceded" Maybe "the label agreed"
  • Done
  • "From the Churches to the Jails, The Hungry and the Hunted, War and Roses, and American Summer.[23]" is it worth mentioning that some of these are lyrics in the completed album?
  • "an early version" a demo?
  • "By January 1975, the band had been working for over a year with only one finished track." Maybe " ... the one finished track"?
  • Removed the 'only'
  • "and the highway as a means of escape and coming-of-age journey ... "Jungleland" I'm not quite clear on who uses the highway as a means of escape/comes of age in "Jungleland".
  • The source has the song listed in quotes; I assume the authors grouped it there since the song takes place on a street and tells the story of the Magic Rat and his unnamed girlfriend. Think I should just separate it in a new description? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the songs on Born to Run are not specifically tied to New Jersey and New York" none of them? Really?
  • "According to Masur, the Rat was gunned down by his "own dream"." Why does that need Masur? That's what the lyrics say, "the Rat's own dream guns him down". And the quote makes it sound like it's Masur's words, not Springsteen's.
  • The quote after "symbolizing" is Masur's. Reworded to clarify.
  • "Following his demise, death and destruction continue across the streets until they are left in complete devastation" "they wind up wounded, they're not even dead"?
  • Removed 'death and'
  • "an article by Henry Edwards in The New York Times that slandered both himself and Born to Run." Slandered is a pretty strong word. Is it justified here?
  • The Greil Marcus paraphrase would probably be better as a direct quotation. If you're going to paraphrase at that level of detail, you are probably better off with a quote.
  •  Not done Will come back to this one. I'm sure Ceoil won't approve of the full quote so I wanna get his opinion (I also can't access the source for whatever reason atm). – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was the album nominated for any awards at the time of its original release?
  • Is the action of the state assembly to try to make the song Born to Run the state's unofficial rock theme worthy of mention?
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ippantekina

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My review will be focusing on prose exclusively. Ippantekina (talk) 05:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ippantekina are you still planning on offering a review? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I do, please bare with me as I'm figuring how to contribute to this review taking into account the opinions of other reviewers here--but it's a positive thus far. Ippantekina (talk) 03:21, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like the way this article is organized and written, very interesting. My concerns are mostly regarding the tone of language here and there:

  • "... via lyrical imagery steeped in the romantic images of highways and travel" would something like "... via romantic lyrical imagery of highways and travel" work?
  • Done
  • Sometimes the language seems editorializing somewhat ("dense, crisp, and energetic yet difficult-to-achieve", "grueling sessions", "the cinematic storytelling and music"). I'd try to frame them as opinions rather than facts as the current language implies.
  • I'm curious; does this part include false titles? "saxophonist Clarence Clemons, organist Danny Federici, pianist David Sancious, bassist Garry Tallent, and drummer Ernest Carter;"
Yes this reads better. Ippantekina (talk) 02:54, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a favorite of artists such as Aerosmith and John Lennon" "who had recently engineered Lennon's Rock 'n' Roll album (1975)" I'm unsure how these help with the prose
  • Cut
  • nitpick-y "The songs themselves feature musical introductions that set the tone and scene for each"
  • Cut
  • Attribution needed for quotes e.g. The characters are "grounded",[102] regular people[103] "trapped by the space they inhabit" Utilizing a "four corners approach" to album sequencing
  • nitpick-y "Springsteen has said that" (I was told somewhere that it's best to avoid the present-perfect tense, though I'm open to discuss)
  • I'd strongly disagree that the present perfect shouldn't be used in articles, and in fact I come across lots of articles where I feel it should be used more. The simple past and present perfect serve different functions. The simple past is used when the time in the past that it happened (or was said) is explicitly indicated, or very clear from the context. Or if the person who said it is no longer alive. But the present perfect is open-ended and if it was said somewhat later than what it was being said about (not shortly after), I almost always use the present perfect. Using both tenses in tandem help separate the two timelines of what was initially happening, and what people have said about it later (if you use only the simple past, these two timelines get unnaturally compressed into one). That's a simplified explanation of how their usage is different, and there are nuances when (if it was me) I might have a special reason not to follow such guidelines, but in general that's how I write. Moisejp (talk) 22:53, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pay extra attention to quotation (WP:LQ) e.g. Masur argues the song "lays out hopes and dreams, and the remainder of the album is an investigation into whether, and in what ways, they can be realized."
  • Fixed
  • I'm not sure if other reviewers have pointed this out, but I'd like to see a short sample of a song that can demonstrate the musical styles/instruments of this album.

— Ippantekina (talk) 09:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ippantekina Replies above. I can work on getting a sample of the title track here in a bit. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing my first comments! Some more comments, this time I've read through to "Critical reception":
  • Do we have the location of Eric Meola's photo studio?
  • I think it's common to capitalize East Coast of the US
  • Fixed
  • "Born to Run continued to be a strong catalog seller through the years, re-entering the Billboard Top LPs & Tape chart in late 1980 after Springsteen's fifth album The River was released,[173] and again after the blockbuster success of his seventh album Born in the U.S.A. (1984), spending most of 1985 on the chart.[174][175]" It'd be great if we have a third-party source rather than Billboard for this part. I think the current sources provide just the Billboard 200 chart info and could be a case of SYNTH
  • This paragraph was there before expansion but I never liked it because it interrupts chronological flow, and as you said it's all primary sources. None of the sources I have really back any of this up so I'm going to removed the whole thing if you are fine with that. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 15:51, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was certified triple-platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America in 1986" it was previously mentioned that the album is 6-times platinum
  • "In October 1975,[177] he Springsteen became the first artist..."
  • Fixed
  • "that defines what is a "magnificent" album"
  • Fixed
  • "felt the lyrics were more accessible and having a "universal quality that transcends the sources and myths he drew upon"." grammatical error here?
  • Changed to 'possessed'
  • "Springsteen's homage to girl groups from the 1960s, particularly ones embellishing themes of heartbreak and doo-wop sounds produced by Spector" might this be mentioned in "Music and lyrics"?
  • Format-wise, I suggest adding rowheader to the "Charts" tables, and separate them by year, as sorting doesn't work for the 3 separate years...
  • Fixed

Ippantekina (talk) 10:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose. A very well-researched and well-written article. @Zmbro: regarding the audio sample I think a short one of the title track could do (the wall of sound production). That track has been on my Spotify's "On Repeat" for 2 months now fyi... Ippantekina (talk) 16:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly what I was thinking I've just been procrastinating lol. Thanks again! – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:33, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image and source review

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Images

  • I worry about the provenance of File:SpringsteenMadison.jpg - it doesn't look like an user-made photo and TinEye claims that it existed once at this page. In my experience, you cannot satisfy WP:NFCC#8 when your image only illustrates a subtopic of the article, so File:Born2Add.jpg probably must go. Otherwise it seems fine, but not all files have ALT text.

Sources

  • I wonder what kind of source "Wings for Wheels: The Making of Born to Run" is.
  • What makes AllMusic a reliable source - I remember that it weren't one.
  • AllMusic is considered reliable over at WP:RSMUSIC: Biography/staff reviews are reliable, but do not use sidebar, as it may be user-generated or otherwise separately sourced from the prose. Their reviews/star ratings are typically included on every album article on this site. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are Vigilla, Hubert and Blum, Jordan reputable reviewers?
  • Why are some Rolling Stone articles online and others not?
  • I think officialcharts.com, live.brucespringsteen.net and brucespringsteen.net can be replaced with the titles of the websites.
  • Fixed
  • Is sputnikmusic.com a reliable source?
  • Don't think that Google Books links need to be archived.
  • Fixed; the IA management console always does that.

Don't know much of the topic or sources but these I inspected seemed to be from reputable authors and publishers. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus Replies above. Thanks! – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jo-Jo, can I check if you're good with the above? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I wonder if all of these sources like AllMusic pass the "high-quality" part of the WIAFA criteria, though, but I'm afraid I am not well-versed on this aspect of music sources to judge. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:22, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jo-Jo Eumerus I assure you they are :-) – zmbro (talk) (cont) 14:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1 I can confirm that they are reliable sources. I understand these sources might seem questionable for a non-Music editor but I assure you they are, and the Music-editing community has curated WP:RSMUSIC for that matter :) Ippantekina (talk) 03:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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