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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Buzz Aldrin/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 18 March 2019 [1].

Buzz Aldrin

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Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) and Kees08 (Talk) 01:22, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Buzz Aldrin, the second man to walk on the Moon, and the second-most famous astronaut. He's still alive, so this is a BLP. The article has passed an A class review that included image and source reviews. Some of the images in this article are iconic and stunning. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:22, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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Been waiting for this one.
  • "Born in Glen Ridge, New Jersey, Aldrin graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, in 1951, with a degree in mechanical engineering. " the many commas slow down the prose significantly. I would cut "at West Point, New York" and use no commas after the one following "Jersey". Most people know where the USMA is and if they don't, the lede of the Aldrin article is perhaps not the place to inform them.
    That's not what the cadets told me when I was there. They seemed to think that most Americans hadn't heard of the place, and were taken aback that foreigners knew so much. Removed "at West Point, New York" but retained the parenthetical comma. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Since I am uncultured, I never associated USMA with West Point and think they are two different things until I look them up. Could we keep West Point but remove New York? Maybe I just need edumahcated...I blame rural high schools. Kees08 (Talk) 21:40, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would say keep West Point with the link. It may come of my growing up only about 20 miles away and being taken to an Army football game by my dad...--Wehwalt (talk) 08:56, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, as a Brit, I've heard of West Point and I know what it means (though not necessarily where it is); likewise Annapolis for the naval academy. I wouldn't intuitively know you ment West Point if you just referred to the USMA, so I think it's worth retaining. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:16, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I added it back for now, if anyone feels strongly about removing it, I will not make a fuss. Kees08 (Talk) 19:58, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was accorded numerous honors, " as Dr. Aldrin is still going, I would say "has been accorded"
    Okay. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was born January 20, 1930, in Mountainside Hospital, in Glen Ridge, New Jersey.[1]" I'd cut down on the commas and change the first "in" to "at", thus, "was born January 20, 1930 at Morningside Hospital in Glen Ridge, New Jersey". The "at" seems more natural to me. I see a tendency to overuse commas in this article IMHO, example being "His selection as one of fourteen members of NASA's Astronaut Group 3, was publicly announced on October 18, 1963."
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was a Boy Scout and earned the rank of Tenderfoot Scout.[7]" Our article is not clear on the subject, but my recollection is that until the 1970s, when you joined, you became a Tenderfoot. Thus, I'm not certain on the "earned" bit.
    Changed to "with the rank of Tenderfoot Scout". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sam Johnson, who later became a prisoner of war in Vietnam; the two became lifelong friends." as they are both alive, is this the best phrasing?
    Deleted "lifelong". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Korean War" is not linked on first use.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning that at MIT he was there at the same time as Dave Scott, who was also selected in Group 3? Did they have contact?
    I never knew this until now. Mitchell and Duke were at MIT around this time too. Nine mentions meeting the others in their memoirs. I will add a bit. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What was Aldrin's initial assignment as an astronaut, prior to his getting a flight.
    Hawkeye must have gotten this one; I added another reference to it at least. Kees08 (Talk) 03:08, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but in this case that was a dead end, as it would be Gemini 13 which did not exist; the last scheduled mission in the program was Gemini 12.[40] " You're effectively saying the same thing three different ways. Suggest consolidation.
    Trimmed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but the delay between parabolae imposed a rest period." Well, more I think that they had to wait several minutes for the next brief period and pulled several G in between.
    Shouldn't it be only 2 G? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I flew on the vomit comet! In the current plane, you get 20ish seconds of zero-g, a teeny bit of time to transition back to the floor, some time at 2 g, and then a teeny bit of time to transition back to zero-g. Reichl says, "As well, in each case there was an approach phase lasting several minutes between the individual parabolas. As a result, unlike in space the astronauts automatically had a rest period between stages." It sounds like the original plane, which I do not believe was designed with the parabolas in mind, had to have a multi-minute long level period between parabolas. I added some verbage to the article to try to make it more clear. Kees08 (Talk) 03:31, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:08, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • More could be said about why Aldrin was selected for Apollo.
    I can tell you a great deal about how Group 3 was selected, but don't know anything about why. Is there something that you think it should say? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I think Wehwalt might have meant selection for Apollo 11. Is that right Wehwalt? Kees08 (Talk) 21:12, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, for 11, though not just that he was backup for 8.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:57, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "An effect of this was that while the CMP usually occupied the center couch on takeoff, Aldrin occupied it rather than Collins, as he had already been trained in it before Collins arrived.[56]" Trained in the center couch? I know what you mean of course but it could be fixed up a bit.
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Apollo 11 was the second all-veteran multi-person crew on an American mission,[57]" I would make it clearer you mean spaceflight veteran.
    Re-worded. The term "veteran" is not so closely associated with the military in Australia.
  • "that doctors diagnosed as requiring surgery.[54]" I would boil it down to "and required surgery".
    Elaborated a bit on this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Furthermore, there was little support for Aldrin's views among other senior astronauts who would command later Apollo missions, and who may have been the first to make a lunar landing had Apollo 11 failed.[59]" I think the tenses are all getting mixed up here.
    Cut the sentence back. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Aldrin and Armstrong did not have time to perform much geological training. The first lunar landing focused more on landing on the Moon and making it safely back to Earth than the scientific aspects of the mission. The duo were briefed by NASA and USGS geologists. They made one geological training expedition to west Texas. The press followed them, and a helicopter made it hard for Aldrin and Armstrong to hear their instructor.[61]"I might say "Armstrong and Aldrin did not have time for much geological training. The mission was to focus on successfully landing and making it safely back to Earth rather than on science ..." and I would shorten "geological training expedition" to "geology field trip"
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • More could be said how the training and intense media attention in the runup to Apollo 11 affected Aldrin.
    We put that bit about the field trip in to elaborate on that. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • More could be said about Aldrin's role in the landing. I might even mention he spoke the first words on the Moon. I might also shorten the discussion of the communion.
    The communion seems to mean a lot to many people, so I am reluctant to cut it back. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I cut it back a teeny bit, removing some excessive detail. Kees08 (Talk) 00:39, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This mission allowed Aldrin to maintain his record EVA duration until it was surpassed in the Apollo 14 mission. He was also the first person to urinate while on the Moon." All that is swell, but I'm not sure this information is well placed here. I would get on with the moon walk and reserve such trivia for later in the discussion of Apollo 11.
    Moved it down a bit Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, two paragraphs on the camera issue and none on what the astronauts (Aldrin in particular) did on the lunar surface? I think you're burying the lede (MAN WALKS ON MOON) under (ALDRIN NOT AN EGOTIST). Did Aldrin take part in the phone call from Nixon? Gather moon rocks? Help set up the EALSEP or whatever it was called? Those are at least as important as whether he peed. A choice quote about the moon from one of his books would be something to be considered.
    @Kees08: Do you want to have a go at this? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:51, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yup, I will give this a go soon. Kees08 (Talk) 06:47, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Hawkeye7 and Wehwalt: What do you guys think of the work I did? I trimmed the religious bits more, trimmed the photography tidbits, expanded what Aldrin actually did on the surface. This was a good suggestion and needed done. What do you think of the edits? Kees08 (Talk) 21:16, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Though the chance of bringing back pathogens from the lunar surface was considered remote, it was still a possibility." We had this discussion on Collins. It was not a possibility, but it was thought it might be. I would add "thought to be" after "still".
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and flown to the aircraft carrier USS Hornet,[94] where they spent the Earth-based portion of 21 days of quarantine.[95]" Similar comment to Collins. They did not spend 21 days aboard the Hornet.
    Added "the first part". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the time there was great stigma ..." I would start by mentioning he was experiencing feelings of depression again and then mention the stigma.
    Moved the sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I might make it clearer what he was hospitalized for.
    Depression. He was in the loony bin. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He attempted to help William Holden, whose girlfriend Stefanie Powers had played Marianne, a women with whom Aldrin had an affair, in the TV movie version of Return to Earth." Unclear if what is meant is help with the movie or with the drinking.
    Added: "with his drinking problem" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "saw one of the four detached spacecraft adapter panels. " You could make it clearer what these are, or where they came from.
    They were the panels surrounding the LM. Not sure how to word this. The text has been cut back at the request of another editor. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I added a little bit back to compromise. Kees08 (Talk) 00:58, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • How has Aldrin been making a living the past 47 years or so? More generally, the organization of the material on the post-NASA stuff seems a bit random.
    Mostly from being Buzz. He collects money for making appearances. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Congressional Gold Medal, with Apollo 11 crew and John Glenn inscribed" Maybe "depicted" for "inscribed"?
    Their names are inscribed, their images depicted. Changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we need the video game both in the text and in the listing of works he's been part of?
    Removed from the text. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's about it for now.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:47, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am putting this here since I was working on Wehwalt's comments when I noticed it...we have his first words on the Moon as 'Beautiful view!", when really that was his first words when he stepped on the Moon. (page 211 in Chaikin) His first words on the Moon were "Contact" I believe. I will fix it when I think of the right wording, unless someone else gets to it. Kees08 (Talk) 03:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure? From the Apollo 11 Lunare Surface Journal:
Buzz tries to jump up to the bott:om rung and doesn't quite make it on the first try.] 109:43:01 Armstrong: A little more. About another inch. (Pause)
[Buzz jumps up to the bottom rung.]
109:43:06 Armstrong: There, you've got it.
109:43:08 Aldrin: That's a good (last) step.
109:43:10 Armstrong: Yeah. About a 3-footer. (Pause)
[Buzz jumps back down to the footpad.]
109:43:16 Aldrin: Beautiful view!
109:43:18 Armstrong: Isn't that something! Magnificent sight out here.
109:43:24 Aldrin: Magnificent desolation. (Long Pause)
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:06, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so it is semantics, but his first words on the Moon would be when he was in the craft. Maybe saying they were his first words after he stepped foot on the Moon (while technically not true, is close enough I think) would work better in the article. Kees08 (Talk) 07:40, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

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  • "engineer, former astronaut, and fighter pilot". Why qualify astronaut with "former" and not engineer and fighter pilot? Maybe "former engineer, astronaut and fighter pilot"
    He retired as an astronaut so the former is clear there. He still does engineering work (see Buzz_Aldrin#Mission_to_Mars_advocacy). Fighter pilot is a little tricky, he flew recently but was in the back so I do not believe it counts as being a fighter pilot. Hawkeye7, what do you think, former fighter pilot or fighter pilot? Kees08 (Talk) 20:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we can say "former". This is why I prefer writing bios in the past tense, even for living people. Especially in the case of someone 88 years old. However I got rapped over the knuckles by the AOC for describing someone as a former Olympian. Apparently, there is no such thing as a former Olympian. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • plebe. I have not heard of this term before and I cannot find an article which explains it. I suggest "plebe (first)"
    The article is United States Military Academy#Rank and organization. I've read (and written) so many article on West Pointers that it hadn't occurred to me that the term might not be well-known. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Whereas Michael Collins had a successful EVA on Gemini 10, which suggested that the order in which he had performed his tasks was an important factor." This is not a grammatical sentence.
    Inserted conjunction. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "gravity-gradient stabilization test" I do not know what this means. Is there an article it could be linked to?
    The article is called gravity-gradient stabilization. Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "whose girlfriend Stefanie Powers had played Marianne, a women with whom Aldrin had an affair, in the TV movie version of Return to Earth" As his movie career has not previously been mentioned, I would spell out that this was a screen not a real affair.
    No, Aldrin had a real affair with Marianne. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Aldrin continues to research this concept" This is presentism. In view of his age, if he is still working on it then he will probably soon stop.
    Well, it is still current. We'll update the article to re-word things like the aforementioned first sentence if and when the time comes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • These points are minor niggles in a first rate article. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support, though "engineer, former astronaut, and fighter pilot" needs revision. If I understand Hawkeye correctly, he agrees that Aldrin is not currently a fighter pilot. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:30, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Have read through article several times and made a few minor edits for grammar and style. The details appear well fleshed out and comprehensive and I feel this article reflects our best work.--MONGO (talk) 12:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

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I know images and sources were looked at during the article's MilHist ACR but I'd like to see a FAC regular like Nikki or Jo-Jo give both (or one each!) a look before we consider promotion. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:05, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, images:
Per the AIP program Terms and Conditions:

Contractor must (without assistance, payment or prompting from the United States Mint), obtain all consents necessary to ensure that the United States Mint, without further action, will own all rights in the design and its drafts, at the time the Contractor executes the applicable rights transfer agreement.

The medal's image is owned by the U.S. Mint, which is itself a unit of the Department of Treasury. As per USC Title 31, Subtitle 4, Chapter 51 Subchapter 2, Section 5111:

Minting and issuing coins, medals, and numismatic items. (a) The Secretary of the Treasury— (1) shall mint and issue coins described in section 5112 of this title in amounts the Secretary decides are necessary to meet the needs of the United States; (2) may prepare national medal dies and strike national and other medals if it does not interfere with regular minting operations.

The Secretary of the Treasury prepares the die and strikes the medal (of course it's actually some employees underneath the Secretary), but the law dictates it's done by the Mint and therefore USC Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 105 applies. The image's rights were transferred to the Mint, but the medal itself is a work created by the mint's employees. And the U.S. Mint is a part of the Department of the Treasury. And all works created by an employee of the U.S. Government in pursuance of their duties are in the public domain. The image of the medal is in the public domain. I think getting confirmation is a perfectly fine idea, but I don't think removing the image before that confirmation is received makes any sense at all. All available evidence points to the image being public domain.--Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 21:11, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Whoever responded to my email from the Mint was not very helpful; just said they could not verify and gave me a phone number to call (which does not help for OTRS purposes). I am convinced it is very likely (like 99% chance) PD, I believe Wehwalt, Hawkeye, and Shibbolethink are in agreement as well (but do not let me speak for you if you disagree), so as long as Jo-Jo Eumerus is in agreement I think we are fine on this one. Kees08 (Talk) 04:18, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK then. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:28, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like everything has got ALT text but I wonder if it can be simplified - ALT text often only needs something like "Logo-bearing plaquette of the Gemini mission". Everything looks pertinent as well. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 17:07, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: What do you think of adding this by the mention of Life magazine publishing it? Kees08 (Talk) 22:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. It's already on Commons at File:EJECTION_OF_A_MIG_PILOT_-_This_unusual_sequence_of_photos,_taken_by_gun_camera_film_of_a_U.S._Air_Force_F-86_"Sabre"..._-_NARA_-_542261.tif Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect I will add that in. It is briefly shown at the beginning of the Apollo 11 documentary (spoiler alert?), in case you have not seen it yet (just got back from it). Kees08 (Talk) 04:18, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I added the photo above, if you could review that too. I plan to get to alt-text later this week. Have your points been sufficiently addressed, or would you like to see any additional work on them? Kees08 (Talk) 08:33, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

License seems good; do we have a direct link to the source page? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:44, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is on the page in the Record ID section (I am not a big fan of how the file page looks; might try to clean it up some). It is here for your convenience. Kees08 (Talk) 08:56, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to convey today the adulation accorded to fighter pilots who sot down MiGs. And while Armstrong is lauded as a great pilot, it is sometimes forgotten that Aldrin was the better stick-and-rudder man. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: No rush whatsoever, but I believe your concerns have been addressed (outside of alt text). If there is anything I missed let me know so I can work on it. Kees08 (Talk) 02:27, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Seems OK to me. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:31, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

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  • Quality and reliability:
  • The sources used are very broad based, and overall appear to represent the required standards of quality and reliability. An exception is Ref 5. The Sun is a red-top sensationalist tabloid newspaper and cannot be considered as a high-quality reliable source.
  • Ref 213: What makes Trailer Addict a high-quality reliable source?
    It did not even support the statement, so I removed the statement with it. The really cool video is Aldrin training Lightyear to fly on the station, if we did include something it should be that. Kees08 (Talk) 07:46, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I added the YouTube video as an external link in that section Kees08 (Talk) 17:47, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Links to sources:
  • Verification. I carried out a random sample of spotchecks, most of which checked out satisfactorily. In a few cases there are minor issues:
  • Ref 1 supports "Edwin Eugene Aldrin Jr. was born on January 20, 1930, at Mountainside Hospital in Glen Ridge, New Jersey". According to the source it was the Montclair Hospital
    Right, that source is not correct. I replaced it with a more recent source that has more detail on it (and is correct). Thanks for finding that. Kees08 (Talk) 17:54, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 67 supports "Propelled by a Saturn V rocket, Apollo 11 lifted off from Launch Complex 39 at the Kennedy Space Center on July 16, 1969, at 13:32:00 UTC (9:32:00 EDT)". the source gives the EDT time, but the UTC time may be based on OR. Also the source places the launch at Launch Pad 39A.
    Launch Pad 39A is one of two launch pads in Launch Complex 39; the other is Launch Pad 39B. Most launches are from 39A; 39B was only used by Apollo 10, the three Skylab Missions and Apollo-Soyuz. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:34, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 171 supports "In 2018 Aldrin was involved in a legal dispute with his children Andrew and Janice and former business manager Christina Korp over their claims that he was mentally impaired through dementia and Alzheimer's disease." It seems that the main basis of the dispute was financial; Aldrin alleged they stole money from him and filed the suit after the children petitioned to take control of his finances. The sentence should be extended to include this point.
    Apparently the situation ended three days ago. Let me do a little digging and maybe write a paragraph on it. Kees08 (Talk) 18:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Formatting

Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Brianboulton: I think we have addressed the comments, thanks for the review. I do not believe converting timezones is OR and would qualify as simple math. Let me know if you have any additional comments. Thanks! Kees08 (Talk) 18:31, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No further comments - sourcing is fine. Brianboulton (talk) 19:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Ian Rose: Should be good here. Kees08 (Talk) 20:02, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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