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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chartwell/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:14, 13 September 2017 [1].

Chartwell

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Nominator(s): KJP1 (talk) 20:01, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Chartwell, Winston Churchill's home for forty years and a Grade I listed building. All comments/suggestions most welcome. Sincere thanks to Tim riley for the GAR and to Nikkimaria for the citation and formatting suggestions. KJP1 (talk) 20:01, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat That would be great. It is a fascinating house, although perhaps not a beautiful one! All input gratefully received. KJP1 (talk) 16:10, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat

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Early history
  • "Victorian architecture at its least attractive…" Probably best to let us know whose opinion that is
  • Green tickY Done - if rather clumsily?
  • "returned the same month with Clementine": "with his wife Clementine", just to clarify?
  • Green tickY Done.
  • "For the first time in 22 years" – needs a ref to close the para
  • Green tickY Done - by removal. It's not essential and I can't find one ref to cover both.
1922-39
  • '"the most important country house in Europe"': again, best to say whose opinion this is
  • Green tickY Done - but please see discussion below.
  • "the house was advertised as containing" you've got a mix of words and digits for the numbers: I think these should be made consistent.
  • Green tickY Done - as words.

Done to the end of 1922 to 1939: more to follow on the morrow. - SchroCat (talk) 21:01, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Architecture and description
  • I'm not sure why the information about Campbell Colquhoun is in the architecture section – would this be better up in the history part, where Churchill buys the place? Some of the information (paying £5k after it failed to reach its reserve at auction) is repeated from the top
Dining Room
  • Rather than "See box", would it be better to have the quote in a <blockquote></blockquote> like this?
  • '"a magnificent aerial bower".' This is a repeat of a quote from the 1922 to 1939 section. I'd remove it from the earlier section and leave this one, but that's up to you.
  • Green tickY Done - removed from the earlier section.
Study
  • "in 1945, defeated…" given that year was the end of the war, "defeated in the polls" just to clarify?
Refs
  • The page ranges you have as "pp. 155–6" should be in the format "pp. 155–56" or "pp. 155–156"
Green tickY - Now done, I hope. I've picked up six and don't think I've missed any. KJP1 (talk) 06:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hope these help. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 18:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat - They help very much indeed. They've all improved the article and I really appreciate the time and care you've taken. KJP1 (talk) 21:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SchroCat - I think I've now responded to all of the above. Again, I'm really grateful for the review and hope the article made an interesting read. Thanks again, and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 06:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comments by Nick-D

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I'm not really competent to comment on the overall subject of this article, but would like to offer some comments on the material relating to the Second World War:

  • Chartwell became "the most important country house in Europe" - this sounds nice, but seems difficult to sustain given that Hitler made extensive use of his country home, the Berghof. It also seems to be splitting hairs a bit - the most important locations in Europe in this era were the national capitals, with country homes being far less important. I'd suggest omitting this quote.
  • Understand exactly what you're getting at, but I'd like to retain the quote unless there's a consensus for removal. It is, of course, an opinion and the relative importance of Chartwell and the Berghof, or anywhere else, can't be measured. But, following Nikkimaria's advice at PR, I have explicitly cited it as an opinion, so that any reader is clear as to its source. Second, I think Fedden had a reasonably authoritative view. He was a pre-war diplomat, and a post war Deputy Director General of the National Trust. In that latter role, he also authored the first Chartwell guidebook, from whence the quote comes. Lastly, one can see what he means - namely, no other country house in Europe became so important a centre of resistance to Nazi Germany, and no more important issue faced 1930s Europe. And he's probably right on both counts. Would you be ok with seeing what others think? KJP1 (talk) 11:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd be inclined to keep it, but only if it is attributed to an individual in the text. If it is, then it becomes clear it's one opinion, rather than having it baldly stated in WP's voice. - SchroCat (talk) 14:01, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that a more expert and independent source is needed for such a claim to appear in the lead - it really seems unlikely given what Hitler got up to in his country house. FDR also made good use of Hyde Park. Nick-D (talk) 10:05, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nick, Do you mean FDR's house in Hyde Park, New York? If so, that falls outside the 'Europe' description given. I've tweaked to show it is one opinion, rather than fact. (And is the Berghof a "country house"? The term is not used in the text, and the description in the article's IB describes it as a "chalet", which is a mountain retreat, rather than country house). - SchroCat (talk) 10:48, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nick, I think we're in danger of being a bit over-literal here. We all accept that the statement can't be objectively measured, in the way the speed of a plane or the displacement of a ship can be. And the article makes plain, twice, that the quote is Fedden's. But the point he's making is clear; Chartwell, more than any other country house in Europe, became the focus of resistance to Hitler, and that this was of greater importance than whatever went on in any other country house. I'm struggling to see how this can be seen as controversial. KJP1 (talk) 16:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • As noted at the top of the thread, my concern is that this is essentially a nice-sounding but meaningless quote, which goes to FA criterion 1a. Were many country houses (as opposed to mountain chalets, palaces, etc) actually important? And if they were important, where they anywhere near as important as the key offices in the key national capitals? Probably not. It would be better for the article to just say what the house was used for. Nick-D (talk) 10:25, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nick, I think we shall just have to agree to differ. I don't myself see that it goes to 1a and I think it's a bit harsh to describe Fedden's quote as "meaningless". He was an informed observer and, to my mind, his comment neatly and accurately encapsulates the notability of the house. I also think his view is obliquely supported by the Historic England listing, which makes very clear that Chartwell is given the highest Grade I listing, not for architectural merit which the house wouldn't warrant, but "for historical reasons". Let's see if other reviewers share the concern. KJP1 (talk) 16:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By autumn 1946, Churchill was there as the verdicts in the Nuremberg trials were announced – his wartime Chief of Staff 'Pug' Ismay recalled his reaction; "It shows that if you get into a war, it is supremely important to win it. You and I would be in a pretty pickle if we had lost"" - this quote seems to imply that Churchill regarded the Nuremberg trials as 'victor's justice', which I don't believe was the case (he actually advocated for executing the Nazi leadership without trial while PM). I'd suggest removing it.
  • As before, can certainly remove if there's a consensus, and it's much less central to the history of the house than the Fedden quote. That said, it is exactly what Ismay recorded as Churchill's view, and it was expressed at Chartwell while Ismay, one of Churchill's closest colleagues, was staying there. Again, I'd quite like to see if there's a consensus for removal. If there is, it's out! KJP1 (talk) 11:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Green tickY Have reflected a bit more on this, and I think you're right. It could give a misleading impression and it's not essential to the history of the house. So, it's gone. KJP1 (talk) 13:59, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's some brief but useful material on the house in David Reynolds' book In Command of History: Churchill Fighting and Writing the Second World War (Eg, that Churchill was effectively homeless after the 1945 election defeat as Chartwell was uninhabitable, and it being used to store his papers in fairly shambolic circumstances in the years immediately after the war). Nick-D (talk) 23:56, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks - will have a look when I'm back from the dentist! KJP1 (talk) 14:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is available as snippets but, as ever, not the snippet I want. Now on order. KJP1 (talk) 12:17, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nick, very much appreciate your giving the article a read-through and offering comments. I've responded below each one. Thanks and regards. KJP1 (talk) 11:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nick, Although we disagree on Fedden, I'm grateful for the interest you've shown in the article, and for the suggestions you've made. I have Reynolds' book on order and when it arrives, will mine it for any useful snippets. Thanks and best regards. KJP1 (talk) 16:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And Reynolds now has arrived. It looks like it will make very interesting reading. In the interim, I've mined the index and put in a good snippet re. Churchill's gratitude to Bill Camrose. KJP1 (talk) 08:17, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil

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Leaning Support, this has been a great read, and to say KJP1's articles broaden my horizon. Some quibbles

The pleasure is all mine, frankly. Ceoil (talk) 15:36, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • Add that Kent is in England in the opening sentence; not everybody knows
  • to support him in his campaigns - to support his campaigns
  • Green tickY Done.
  • his speeches and wrote his books - no need for either of usage of "his" here
  • Green tickY Done.
  • closed up? Not familiar with the terminology
  • Green tickY Done.
  • Since Churchill's death in 1965, and the opening of the house to the public in 1966, Chartwell has become one of the National Trust's As a more general point on tense, I'd prefer "After Churchill's death...etc"
  • Green tickY Done.
  • aims to raise just over £7 million - maybe not for lead.
  • Ceoil - many thanks indeed. I really appreciate your taking the time to review it and I shall get straight on to addressing the comments. Also, very glad you found the article interesting. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 05:18, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Further quibbles, fairly minor:

at his dining table, he gathered friends to support - is friends the right word? It seems rather loaded
  • Green tickY Done.
the house and the advertising material - advertising material in a pre-modern context
  • Green tickY Done.
In 1946, when it appeared that financial constraints would force Churchill to sell - "appeared" coupled with he "would force" tense is weak. At least say materialised, or simply Financial constraints forced.
  • Green tickY Done - better, I hope.
some 232,000 visitors in 2016 - state as a recently annualised figure
  • Green tickY Done.
The Trust's Keep Churchill at Chartwell appeal, launched in that year, the fiftieth anniversary of the opening of the house, aims to raise funds to buy a wide array of Churchill-related objects currently at Chartwell and retain them at the house. - I'm not sure this is for the lead Ceoil (talk) 13:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Green tickY Done - I think I now see what you mean.
Ceoil - Thanks very much indeed for the review comments and for the edits within the article. They've all improved it and I'm very grateful. As a work of architecture, the house is no St Fin Barre's, but as a piece of history it is fascinating. Thanks and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 06:09, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for you quick and diligent responses. Have changed to support. As I said above, watching and learning. More please. Ceoil (talk) 20:21, 1 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria - many thanks for reviewing the images and for the comments and suggestions at PR. KJP1 (talk) 06:09, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support – I reviewed the article for GAN, and made my few comments then, all subsequently addressed satisfactorily. I didn't pursue the point at the time, but I'm pleased the peer review led to the reordering of the paragraphs to put the history first, which makes the text flow more smoothly, I think. The article as it now stands seems to me to meet all the FA criteria, and I am happy to add my support for its promotion to FA. – Tim riley talk 03:41, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tim riley - Very much appreciate the support and the earlier GA. At PR, Nikkimaria made exactly the same suggestion as you did regarding the article's structure and you were both right. All the very best. KJP1 (talk) 06:09, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Hchc2009

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Looks good (NB: in the interests of transparency I'll admit to having produced the diagram). There are a few quote where you don't explain who is saying the line:

  • "to be greeted by "the biggest crowd Westerham had ever seen"
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • At Chartwell, he developed his own "little Foreign Office ... the hub of resistance".
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • "The following week, increasingly incapacitated, Churchill left the house for Hyde Park Gate, "never to see his beloved Chartwell again"."
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • "as it looked in the 1920-30s, "garnished and furnished so as to be of interest to the public""
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • "his study in which Churchill "mobilized the English language and sent it into battle""
  • Green tickY - Done. This one's a bit tricky as it's the journalist Gary Shapiro, quoting JFK, who was, in turn, quoting Ed Murrow. But it's actually given a rather nice hook for WSC's honorary citizenship of the US.

...these should really be attributed as you've done the other quotes. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hchc2009, H, first off, I owe you an apology. I should have credited your contributing the plans at the kick-off. I did so at the PR and can't think why I forgot to do so here. But I did - sorry. Second, glad you like how the article's shaped up. Third, very grateful for your comments and will be even more so for your support. I'll get on to the attributions now. Brian's kindly indicated he'll also drop by to review it, so that will help as well. Assuming he likes it, of course! Thanks and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 10:41, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hchc2009, And thanks again, belatedly for the plans, and for the comments and the Support. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 14:01, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: Unless I've missed it somewhere, we still need a source review. This can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sarastro1, Just to say, although I think we may be there or thereabouts on the Supports and the Image and Sources reviews, I did ask Brian to take a look and, having done so, I would want him to have the opportunity. I'm not in any hurry to close it up, if that's ok with you. KJP1 (talk) 13:54, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Book sources are of first rank. Formatting is consistent. Spot checks on refs 63, 99 & 103 - all back claims made, and reveal no other issues. Ceoil (talk) 12:11, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No its fine; you have built enough credibility and trust that taking book sources in AGF applies. Ceoil (talk) 13:57, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton

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Support: This is a wonderful article, very detailed, full of interest. Naturally I've dredged up a few nitpicks and quibbles for you to consider, but these are minor points and shouldn't delay the article's promotion

  • Lead: "in the thirties" might be "in the 1930s", for precision
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • I believe WP linking policy is that items should be linked on first mention in the lead and on first mention in the main text. Thus, names like "Churchill" and "Clementine" and maybe others should be linked when first appearing in the main text.
  • Will go through and check these.
  • "due to the fact that" is clumsy. I'd simplify to "made because..."
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • "when he was back at the Admiralty" might be a bit vague for some readers. "when he was reappointed First Lord of the Admiralty on the outbreak of war", with appropriate links?
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • "He withdrew..." → "He withdrew the sale..."
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • Do minor political offices, e.g. "assistant private secretary", need formal capitalisation? I'd have thought not. On the other hand, I think "Privy Council" should be rendered thus, not as "Privy council".
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • Paragraphs should not generally begin with a pronoun, e.g. "It came some sixteen months..."
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • I'm not sure about "Miss" Hamblin in MoS terms, but I'd be inclined to leave it.
  • Green tickY - Have done. We can always change later if others have a concern.
  • Again on capitalisations, this time the various Chartwell rooms. We have, inter alia, "Churchill's Study", "Drawing Room", "painting Studio" (sic), and "Lady Churchill's Bedroom", the last-named rendered in bold for some reason. Is the rash of capitals necessary? Seems a little over the top.
  • Red XN - Will grudgingly get on to these!
  • Green tickY - Now done. Except for the quote box where Churchill capitalised, as in the chairs "should be of a kind of which those not required for the Dining Room could be used in the Drawing Room or Studio". Caps all Churchill's. What was the mad fool thinking of! KJP1 (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe clarify that the picture on display by William Nicholson is the early study, since you say he destroyed the finished work.
  • Green tickY - Done.
  • Green tickY - Done.

That's it. Thanks for a pleasurable read, top-quality stuff. Brianboulton (talk) 18:18, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Brian, I am absolutely delighted that you liked the article and that it gave you pleasure. While not a great piece of architecture, the house is so steeped in Churchill's personality, and so bound up in his story, as to make it a very special place. Your comments are also very helpful and I shall action them all. Tim said I'd never get the capitalisation of the Chartwell rooms through - but I almost did! Sincere thanks and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 19:49, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Johnbod

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  • Green tickY Done. This sentence has been played around with a bit, and had become a little mangled.
  • " and was later described by the diplomat Robin Fedden as "the most important country house in Europe".[2" - discussed above, I know. It's currently in twice, & the quote later, with more context, seems quite enough to me.
  • Green tickY Done - I like the quote, but it's not essential for the lead and as others would prefer it out.
  • Green tickY Done - with a mention. The house is indeed better to look out from, than to look at! I'll go over the photos when I'm done here.
  • There are only 2 photos actually of the house, and commons has lots (of the exterior). I found File:Chartwell - geograph.org.uk - 1275993.jpg useful, never having been there. There are gaps, and Chartwell's black swans look just like all the others in the world.
  • - See above. I'll go over the photos later.
  • Green tickY Now done, I hope. I've used both of your suggestions, culling the swans in the process, and picked up a better view of the entrance front from Geograph. It is a great pity that we don't have any interior shots but the NT doesn't allow photography inside and jealously guards its own copyright. KJP1 (talk) 08:34, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Chartwell has become one of the Trust's most popular properties; some 232,000 people visited the house in 2016," - from the source, I make this #20 of their houses, ignoring ruins & countryside, which is somewhat stretching "most popular" perhaps.
  • Green tickY Done - at both mentions. "among the Trust's most popular properties"?
  • The EH listing mentions something vague like "fragments of medieval" stuff in the fabric. Ideally more detail, or mention that.
  • Green tickY Done - put in a tiny snippet re. the Tudor brickwork.
  • "when the house had failed to sell, he was offered first refusal for £5,500." Does this mean "when the house had failed to sell at auction, he was offered it for £5,500."?
  • Green tickY Done.
  • "his parliamentary seat at Dundee." Might mention this is in Scotland, and link to the constituency not the town, assuming we have an article.
  • Green tickY Done and done. Fortunately, we do have an article.
  • "In February 1926, Sir Samuel Hoare described a visit in a letter to Lord Beaverbrook" - briefly explain them?
  • Green tickY Done and done. Or I could say Hoare was the SoS for Air?
  • " Churchill recorded his gratitude in a letter to Camrose in December 1945, "I feel how inadequate my thanks have been, my dear Bill, who (has) never wavered in your friendship during all these long and tumultuous years"" - the interpolation is surely ungrammatical? If any is needed, "Bill, (to you) who never...". No?
  • Green tickY Done - by removal. It's slightly difficult, as WSC was thanking Camrose, and the other donors, but hopefully this works.
  • " he suffered a massive stroke" - link;
  • Green tickY Done.
  • "Lord Beaverbrook, Lord Camrose" both mentioned & linked before, now only one is again. Should prob be consistent, don't mind which way.
  • Green tickY Done.
  • " he chaired his last cabinet," link I think
  • Green tickY Done.
  • "sitting "by the fish pond, feeding the golden orfe and meditating"." linked later; link in a quote earlier.
  • Green tickY Done. Put the link at first mention and removed the other two.
  • " The architectural style favoured for Chartwell is vernacular, described by the architectural historian John Newman as "undecided"" - undecided is rather puzzling here, & you have a fuller quote later. He presumably means undecided between different varieties of style, or in form, but this might be clearer.
  • Green tickY Done - by removal. As you say, the longer Newman quote which follows is clearer.
  • "Within the garden proper, they created almost all of the landscape, and the architectural and water features seen today" - presumably "landscape features" is meant, but the two words are too far apart.
  • Green tickY Done.
  • " while Lady Churchill was on a cruise to Sumatra," - "off Sumatra" perhaps. Nobody cruises to Sumatra from Europe, & I'd be inclined to bet Malaysia, Singapore, and maybe Java were on the route.
  • Green tickY Done.
  • "Lord Camrose recalled a conversation with Churchill in the early 1950s; "Perhaps, (Churchill) said quizzically, Providence had given him Colonist as a comfort in his old age and to console him for disappointments".[124] Doesn't work; not sure this does either: "Lord Camrose recalled Churchill's comment in the early 1950s; "Perhaps said quizzically, Providence had given him Colonist as a comfort in his old age and to console him for disappointments".[124]" - and aren't there any quote marks?
  • Generally a good read. Could do with more pictures. Great plan of the house.

Johnbod (talk) 02:07, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod, much appreciated. Your comments were very helpful, and I'm glad you found it a good read. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 21:52, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: I notice that the article does not have alt text. While it is not an explicit requirement at FA, I always feel that we should demonstrate best practice. Also, I cleared up a few duplinks, but there are others which someone should check to see if they are necessary. However, there is no need to hold up promotion over these issues. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Very much appreciated and many thanks. I've never done alt text but shall certainly look at it for this, and for future submissions. As well as check for duplicate links. Thanks again to you, and to all those who contributed at initial drafting, at GAR, at PR and here at FAC. KJP1 (talk) 21:33, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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