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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Christopher Smart's asylum confinement/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:05, 25 July 2009 [1].

Christopher Smart's asylum confinement

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Nominator(s): Ottava Rima (talk) 03:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because of extensive copy editing and correcting during GA, copying editing from others, and private discussions about improvements for the article. The article covers most of the views held on the matter and should be FA ready. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Right-facing image should be placed on the left Rotational (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Generally, yes, but not always -- some editors dislike image subjects looking off screen, and would rather they direct the reader to the text, rather than elsewhere. For the record, I disagree with Rotational; although Smart's body in the portrait is facing right, he is looking straight ahead (as with the lead image for Robert Sterling Yard). I have no problem with it being on the right-side. María (habla conmigo) 13:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: The prose may need to be examined at length again by a new pair of eyes. Some comments/suggestions from the lead only:
  • I had no idea who Christopher Smart was, or what he was notable for, while reading the first paragraph, so a little more context would not hurt; a simple addition of "English poet" would help.
  • He may have started in a private madhouse before being transferred to St Luke's, where he transitioned from being "curable" to "incurable". Smart... Switch the first "he" and "Smart" -- since the previous paragraph ends on an ambiguous note, mentioning the opinion of "many", the next paragraph should re-establish who the subject is by name.
  • Smart was later moved to Mr. Potter's asylum after St Luke's ran out of funds for which to provide for his care. The latter part of this sentence seems needlessly wordy. I don't think it's even needed; that they ran out of funds is enough for me.
  • It is not known what exactly happened during his years of confinement... this would be a good place to establish how many years.
  • what exactly happened during his years of confinement, except that Smart's wife separated from him and took their children to Ireland and that he wrote on two of his most famous poems, Jubilate Agno and A Song to David. This is confusing two separate things, I think. When I read "during his years of confinement", I thought that this sentence would address what happened to him, specifically, while in the institution. That his wife separated from him seems peripheral, since it occurred on the outside. I would move this info to a new sentence, since it is important.
  • Among literary critics, it is debated as to whether his turning inward to examine himself in his poetry represents an evangelical type of Christianity, his poetry during his isolation does show a desire for "unmediated revelation". Missing connection, here. Also, I feel that "turning inward" and "to examine himself" is somewhat repetitive and clunky; "whether this self-examining poetry", perhaps?
  • "A Song to David" should be linked the first time it is mentioned, not the second. Same with the other poem, which is mentioned twice before it is linked.
  • ...two poems that are currently viewed as Smart's greatest works. This really should be noted previously, when the works are first mentioned.

On rereading, it feels like the lead is working itself backwards, which is somewhat confusing. The lead could be better organized by subject: context, background, motives, effect on life, effect on poetry? Just brainstorming. I haven't read the rest of the article, but I would gladly continue if the above were addressed. María (habla conmigo) 12:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Julian Colton can be blamed for the lead. I am notoriously opposed to bothering with them. :) Will be fixing shortly. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I made changes here. I hope that satisfies your concerns (although some are less direct). Ottava Rima (talk) 18:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I normally don't do the "it needs seven more copy-editors and I just read the lead" thing... but there are some problems... in the lead, and it will need seven more copy-editors. :-)
  • You already fixed four "Smart"s in one sentence. Good.
  • "it is possible that his self-evaluation found within his poetry"—less awkward as "the self-evaluation found in his poetry"
  • "Smart may have started in a private madhouse"—you are emphasizing a transition, but "started" is colloquial, I'd think, when an encyclopedic entry discusses asylum residence. Wouldn't "resided" or "lived in" suffice, when the next clause makes the transition obvious?
  • "where he transitioned from being "curable" to "incurable""—this is close to a euphemism, except that the quote marks suggest that this is a viewpoint belonging to someone. Can you say who, even if in the most brief, generic terms?
  • "the traditional genres of the 18th-century that...—"18th-century" is not a phrasal adjective here, so does not need a hyphen. This occurs twice in the lead and about three times in the body.
  • "Also, his poetry..."—everything is an "also", and the start of a sentence is usually the worst place for the word; I'm not seeing a particular contrast or need to "re-orient the reader's attention" in the context of the sentence before this
  • "what this "madness" meant varied amongst those who knew Smart"—this is hard to explain, but let's rephrase what this says: "the meaning of Smart's madness varied among Smart's acquaintances"; it's a very indirect way to say that his acquaintances' thoughts or opinions or construals of his madness varied. We get the meaning, but the construction isn't quite right.
  • "during his 7 years"—spell out one-digit numbers in non-technical writing.
  • Lived in seems too... willing. :) Also, 18th-century is the wiki article page now. There was some boring MoS discussion about it.... but the 18th century page apparently got moved back to the non-hyphenated... I don't know. Sandy might know. Now, the one digit number thing I agree, but MoS sided against me last time. Another Sandy question. By the way, I made changes based on the above. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments on section One:
  • Check the two consecutive paragraphs beginning "It is not known what exactly happened during his seven years of confinement"... quite a bit of redundancy there.
  • Decide on "St"/"St." and "Mr/Mr."
  • "Hunter describes that Samuel Johnson would visit Smart while "mad""--who was mad??
  • "He was immediately released."--I changed the wording in this section: could you add a date here to fill out the sentence?
  • "John Sherratt", "Arthur Sherbo", "Piozzo"--who? In general, please introduce figures on first appearance, or don't mention them if minor. Outriggr (talk) 09:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe the Britishism is to remove the fullstop after "Mr" and "St". I removed all except for those inside of quotes. "who was mad?" Probably both. :) I changed it to "during this time" (i.e. the time of the "Asylum" section - vague, but Johnson's time of visiting was very vague). "could you add a date here to fill out the sentence?" We don't have a date. The dates are incredibly vague. Page 203 for verification. There are a lot of details of this time that I wished we had more information (especially when I worked on him in my real life scholarship - but I am sure if we had the information, there would be a lot more competition, so, a double edge blade). By the way, I think I removed the redundancy in those two paragraphs (made one about asylum stay specifically and the other to poetry). Ottava Rima (talk) 21:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review
  • I switched out the B&W Smart engraving for a color oil painting. See what you think.
  • File:Jubilate Agno let.JPG - We need a source for this image.

I look forward to reading the article! Awadewit (talk) 19:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Agno image is an original copy of the manuscript. I would have to see if any books republish it. I uploaded that from my own copy, which was passed to me from my mentor. I can only assume that Karina Williamson has an edition in The Poetical Works of Christopher Smart, I: Jubilate Agno. Ed. Karina Williamson. Oxford: Clarendon, 1980. I would have to track down a copy to get specific numbers. I recall a few other works having reproductions of it (and some other pages), and I will see if I have any on hand. Since it wouldn't be on a "numbered" page, it would be easy to just attribute it to Williamson's edition. Ottava Rima (talk)
"Copy in uploader's private collection" would be better. It needs a source; that doesn't mean it need be an academic source. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 21:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is just easier this way, or, at least, more promotional to academia. :D Ottava Rima (talk) 21:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images have adequate descriptions and verifiable licenses. Awadewit (talk) 21:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments.
  • (I fixed these Alt text problems:)
Eubulides (talk) 08:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about the image darkness. I can't even tell what I'm looking at with the replacement image. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
File:Christopher Smart from NPG.jpg is too far away from what Smart actually looked like, so I replaced it with a retouched image File:Christopher Smart from NPG retouched.jpeg that I just now generated. The retouched image is still too dark but I couldn't lighten it further without messing it up. Please feel free to improve it further (I am not an expert at retouching). Eubulides (talk) 17:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. One of the best known parts of Jubilate Agno is For I will consider my Cat Jeoffry. The cat is mentioned elsewhere in the article. I would like to see a short quotation. Amandajm (talk) 09:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Anything in particular? It is quite a lengthy excerpt, but if there are any five or six continuous lines that you are particularly fond of, I can create a box for it. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about this bit:
"For I will consider my cat Jeoffry....
For when his day's work is done his business more properly begins.
For he keeps the Lord's watch in the night against the adversary.
For he counteracts the powers of darkness by his electrical skin and glaring eyes.
For he counteracts the Devil, who is death, by brisking about the life.
For in his morning orisons he loves the sun and the sun loves him.
For he is of the tribe of Tiger.
For the Cherub Cat is a term of the Angel Tiger.
For he has the subtlety and hissing of a serpent, which in goodness he suppresses.
For he will not do destruction, if he is well-fed, neither will he spit without provocation.
For he purrs in thankfulness, when God tells him he's a good Cat."
Amandajm (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Added in excerpt. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Oppose, 1a. On reading a sample section, this appears to require the attention of a copyeditor. Samples, from the first couple sections:
    • You've placed periods inside partial quotations here.. but not in some other places. Attention needed to MoS issues.
    • "Monro instead believed that those who were mad ..." The "instead" here is redundant to the "however" in the previous sentence.
    • "His suggested treatment, beating patients, was equally as harsh as Battie's ..." Either "equally" or "as" need to go, probably the former.
    • "the treatment for the patients were simple"
    • "The Hymn to the Supreme Being marks the time in Smart's life after his mysterious "fit" was resolved and the beginning of Smart's obsession with religion and of his praying 'without ceasing'." I read this a few times without success at understanding its meaning.
    • "Smart's praying began in regular intervals but slowly devolved into irregular praying in which he would interrupt his friends' activities and call them into the street to pray in public." Messy. For a start, why not begin with "Smart prayed at regular intervals at first"? The "in which" seems odd in reference to "praying".
    • "This continued until an incident ..." One of several uses of the ambiguous "this" in reference to a previous idea; for clarity, always restate or paraphrase the reference.

--Andy Walsh (talk) 18:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are no periods within quotations unless there are periods within quotations. Adding a period within a quotation that is not there is not proper in any form. (Matter clarified and fixed) If there is a "however" in a -previous- sentence, then it is not redundant for a current sentence. Removing any "as" or "however" from that sentence would make it 100% grammatically inaccurate and improper. Now, for you not understanding the meaning of the sentence, I don't really know how to help you. It is rather clear - 1st clause states talks about the fits being resolved and the 2nd clause clause talks about his obsession with prayer. It is rather straight forward. (rewrote parts of the system after a few things were changed by another user, so this all became unnecessary) Then your other calling into question a sentence is over things that are not grammatically incorrect. But here is the killer - you claim that I have to be redundant about something instead of using "this", which contradicts your first claim. Sorry, but your comments are inactionable as they do not follow standard grammatical rules and contain internal contradictions. (Some terms were flipped around and many of the "this"s stayed but in a different form that seems to work out) Ottava Rima (talk) 21:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let me try clarifying my comment about the ambiguous "this", and you're welcome to ask for a second opinion: When you use "this" in reference to a previous idea, you create an ambiguity because the reader can't be certain what you're referring to. Clarifying the ambiguity does not create a redundancy. ESL readers have a particularly difficult time with this concept. For example: "Charlie couldn't find a parking spot, and then the store was out of his favorite beer. This caused him to have a very bad day." You can guess that "this" refers to everything that preceded it, but you can't be sure. --Andy Walsh (talk) 15:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ESL readers have simple wiki. And this always refers to the events of the preceding sentence. If there are any preceding sentences that you think are obscure, then please mention. But to perform the remove of "this" would require in some instances at least 10 or 20 words to be added. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think sending ESL readers to Simple Wikipedia is a good solution to this particular problem. However, perhaps it is a subjective matter. I will read through again and list any that look like they need clarity. --Andy Walsh (talk) 17:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I linked to your talk page of an edit - I kept many of the "this" but added a noun to help generalize. It would not cover what is really said in the sentence before, but it would at least guide anyone who can't tell. Some of the "this" ("this time") were arbitrary and only refer to a general context. I doubt you were referring in the above, but I swapped them out. At the very end, there was the use of "this" instead of "his", which was changed. However, I doubt you were referring to them. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate it. See, it didn't take long to wear me down, did it? --Andy Walsh (talk) 17:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't that. You just phrased it in a way that made it seemingly impossible. I had to pressure you for clarifications of things that I could work with. :P Ottava Rima (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed - I guess someone decided to start moving page titles again. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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