Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cliff Thorburn/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 22 July 2022 [1].

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Cliff Thorburn

Nominator(s): BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

This article is about the 1980 World Snooker Champion, known as "The Grinder", who is generally recognised as the first champion from outside the the United Kingdom. (Sorry, Horace Lindrum!) I've tried to keep the playing career part of the article quite focused on the main points as discussed in sources, rather than provide lots of tournament-by-tournament detail. I can provide relevant extracts from offline sources on request. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments from ChrisTheDude

• Does ref 3 source everything from "he left school" onwards?

• No. I've added a page reference for the sentence here that it does support. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:22, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• "The 1977 World Snooker Championship was the first to be held at the Crucible Theatre." - probably worth specifying where in the world this is

• Added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:22, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• "Ian Morrison called "unfounded."" - full stop should be outside the quote marks I think

Not if it was there in the original. See MOS:INOROUT. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@ChrisTheDude: Amended back, as the full sentence in the source is "The complaint was unfounded." Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:07, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

• "the explosive break-building of Higgins."" - same here

• Amended per the two points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:22, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• That's all I got as far as the end of the "1983 world championship maximum break" section. I'll look at the rest later -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:27, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
• In the "team finals" table, you have notes saying who was in the Rest of the World and Ireland A teams, but not the others (eg Canada) - any reason?

• No reason. Added as notes. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• Note b to k are complete sentences so need full stops

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• Any reason why notes m and q are the only ones not to start with a capital letter?

• None, so amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• That's all I got on the rest -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:45, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• Many thanks, ChrisTheDude. Let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:18, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Support from Lee Vilenski

• televised 147 break - we linked maximum break, but then say "147" as if we know the reader realises these are the same thing. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• making him the first player to win the Masters three times and the first to retain the title. - I feel like this could be written differently. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Pool pipes to a redirect. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• not sure if the source says, but it's likely eight-ball at that time in Canada that he played Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• That particular source doesn't confirm which variety of pool, but I'll check a couple of other sources. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Sources just say pool, as far as I can see.

• Yeah, I didn't expect a game, but it would be nice if the media actually expanded on things like this. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:43, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• Spencer recommended Thorburn to the World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association,[3] and he was accepted as a member in 1972 - this should probably be reworded to say that he'd be a professional player, not just a member of the organisation Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Changed "member" to professional. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• beat Jim Wych 13–6, having led 5–3, 9–3 and 10–6 - seems like excessive detail. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Amended by removing one of the scores, but it might need another snip as it's not a particularly notable match. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Second para of 1980 world snooker champion is very long. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Split at what I hope is a logical point. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Following his world championship victory, Thorburn bought a house in England with the intention of spending more time in Britain - maybe a personal life thing? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• I'll have a look at sources and either expand (obviously he did it because the pro events were in the UK), or move this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Moved to personal life. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

• He played for Canada in the 1996 World Cup, where his team reached the quarter-finals.[55] He won over one million pounds in prize money during the course of his career - seems like a long/weird jump! Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, Lee Vilenski. There are a couple of points I need to refer to a few sources on - I should be able to do this in the next day or so. Let me know if there's anything else. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: I've now responeded to all the points above. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Image review

Image use and licence seem OK to me. ALT text passable. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:02, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Source review

Spotchecks not done.

Pass. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:35, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

• "He was the second player, after Davis, to make a televised maximum break in professional competition" - source?

• Added "in professional competition" to the body text, and added a source (as the WST site isn't explicit that the breaks listed there are "in competition".) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:05, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

• Which source supports the "televised" piece? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Removed televised as those sources don't support it, and the achievement was in making the break, regardless of whether or not it was televised. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• "One of his most celebrated moments" - source?

• Removed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• Be consistent in whether you include publication locations, and if so how these are formatted

• Hopefully now OK. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:05, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

• Why for example "Melbourne, Victoria, Australia" but just "Saskatoon"? Why no location on for example Sheffield Star? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Hopefully now all consistent. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• Berkshire Live? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:40, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

• I hadn't added that as I think it's an online-only source, but now added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

• The two Morrison works have the same publisher but different formatting and different locations - why?

• I took out the "Publishing Group" but the specified locations are indeed different. (This can be seen online on archive.org and/or in the British Library Catalogue.) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• What makes Rose Villa a high-quality reliable source?

• They seem to be still publishing some local news outlets (website) but really, in my opinion, the credibility of the source derives from the authors. Hayton was the managing editor of CueSport magazine (at least for part of its history), which was nationally distributed in the UK from 2000 to 2009. John Dee, who was also associated with CueSport and contributed to the book, was the snooker editor of The Daily Telegraph. Terry Smith, another Telegraph correspondent, and author/editor of a few snooker books, was also a contributor to the magazine. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• Why is there a 1985b but no 1985a? Ditto 1981b

*(I need to sort out how to do this with a mix of years. eg. 1985, and days, e.g. 14 January 1985 BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC))

• As the same author has newspaper articles in both of those years, this was the way I attempted to address multiple targets errors, per Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors#Resolving_errors. I've changed the b's to a's but happy to make further changes as necessary. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:40, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

• Since the newspaper articles aren't referenced by short cites, why not use |ref=none? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Now done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• Fn4: page?

• Added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• FN15 is missing pages, but why is this not in Books?

• Now moved to books, page refs should all be there now. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• Be consistent in whether you include publishers for periodicals

• Should now be consistent. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:40, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

• Technically the children's names shouldn't be cited to the subject - not sure they need to be included anyways

• Removed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• What makes Chris Turner a high-quality reliable source? If this is included, check that these citations are consistently formatted

• Turner provided statistics for EuroSport. His obituary in Snooker Scene (December 2011), says that Turner "collated billiards and snooker statistics for many years and ran a very useful website … in which key facts and figures were recorded." BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• In that case formatting needs to be made consistent - compare for examples FNs 105 and 108. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• FN112 is missing pages. Ditto FN113, check throughout

• (Sunday Times page refs not included in NewsBank; will check elsewhere)
• I'll need to visit the British Library to get the Sunday Times page ref, which should be in the next couple of days. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:40, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

• Added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• What makes snookerline a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:04, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• Replaced. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:40, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, Nikkimaria. Could you please let me know if anything needs to be done on the Rose Villa, 1985b/1981b, and Turner questions (or anything else)? the Sunday Times page number issue is pending but I'd like to know if there's more to do apart from that. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:40, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

My apologies for not making all the amendments properly first time round, Nikkimaria. Let me know about anything else required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Support from Mike Christie

I've copyedited, but there wasn't much to do. A straightforward article, which I'm happy to support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:39, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 14:24, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.