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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Death of Ms Dhu/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:42, 30 June 2018 [1].

Death of Ms Dhu

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Nominator(s): Freikorp (talk) 06:42, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a sad chapter in the Australian government's treatment of Aboriginal women. I rewrote this article from scratch in April this year, and it has since passed a GA nomination and received a copyedit from GOCE. I now believe it meets featured standards. Freikorp (talk) 06:42, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi Ian Rose. So I have five six seven supports, an image and source check and no opposition. Is there anything else you'd like on this one? I ask as I'll start making trade offers for whatever is still needed if that is the case. Also I've got another article I wish to nominate. Thanks. Freikorp (talk) 22:34, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi again Ian Rose. So seven supports now and I think it's pretty unlikely anyone else will comment on it before it gets to the bottom of the list. Any chance it can be passed now? Don't worry I won't bug you about it a third time if not haha, I'm just very keen to nominate my next article. :) Freikorp (talk) 03:51, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, each time I think we might be ready to close someone else has stopped by, and of course I'm glad to see as much commentary as possible -- I may not be able to run through it till the weekend but in the meantime you're welcome to post a new nom if you like. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:40, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Source review - spotchecks not done

Support from Ceoil

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First impressions: exceptionally well written and source quality is fine (newspapers but the incident happened in 2014 so still very recent). Ceoil (talk) 09:50, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The headings dont work for me; "Background" "Julieka Dhu" (I don't like using this name in a header at all) "Incarceration in Western Australia" "Arrest" "Death" lacks flow, in particular the balance between 2nd and 3rd levels is a bit jarring. The material in "Incarceration in Western Australia" is good but its heading is misplaced, jolting, and indicates an editorial POV. I would absorb this into the Background sect instead. Ceoil (talk) 13:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ceoil. Thanks for reviewing this. You say you don't like the heading "Death". Well, I don't particularly like it either. I preferred 'Deterioration and death', which was my choice of wording, though I note you changed it to Death instead. If you don't like the headings 'Arrest' and 'Death', can you suggest an alternative? I don't see a problem with them regarding flow, therefore I don't know what change would be an improvement.
Why don't you like the heading "Julieka Dhu"? It was her name. I'll change it to "Ms dhu" if you prefer, I don't particularly mind one way or the other, but you haven't said what you'd like it changed to.
Specifically for reasons of flow, I think it's appropriate to break up the background section between the information on Dhu and the information on Western Australian incarceration, both of which the reader needs a background knowledge of to understand the rest of the article. I thought the best way to do this would be with sub-headers. I think the section will read awkwardly if it goes from straight talking about Dhu to talking about fines. If 'Incarceration in Western Australia' is an editorial POV (can you also explain why this heading is POV? I am assuming good faith but I don't see the problem, I accept that my judgement may be impaired because I've been following this case for some time though) can you suggest a more neutral alternative? Thanks. Freikorp (talk) 13:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Freikorp, all this just struck me as reading, so I just threw it out for discussion. For sure "Ms dhu" is better, given the opening sentence. Have reverted to Deterioration and death. My issue with "Incarceration in Western Australia" is that from a scan of the TOC, it might seem pointed, and there is a break in the logical flow which otherwise is around her story. Will mull it over, but not a deal beaker.
That said, this a gripping and compelling article, I read it in one sitting and per my initial comment, the writing is first class, and as someone familiar with your other work and form, I'm inclined to trust you on the above. On that basis its a Support from me. Ceoil (talk) 16:01, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz

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Hi Freikorp,

  • times, 12:30pm and 8pm - insert space before pm
  • "... practise of jailing people..." - Auseng noun 'practice'
  • the 2 paras starting "In October 2017..." and "In September 2017..." - swap order to be chronological? (If so, will need to move Quigley wlink and his AG title and wlink up to the September para.)
  • Lol, can't believe I missed that. Cheers for pointing it out.
  • "...whereas in all other Australia states and territories..." - Australian?
  • "In October 2017, the Australian federal government was reported to be urging states and territories to implement a CNS" - but NSW and ACT had already done so after the royal commission. Maybe insert 'the other' or 'the rest of'?
  • Consider adding - In ref 18 (ABC Gartry 23 Nov 2015), George Newhouse is mentioned as representing the Deaths In Custody Watch Committee (WA) Inc at the coronial inquiry.
  • Add category 1991 births
  • Refs from The Guardian - should the 'work' link to Aust online edition ie Guardian Australia?
  • Ref 6 needs AAP added?

Thanks for all your work on this article, JennyOz (talk) 08:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again Freikorp, very happy to sign support, JennyOz (talk) 08:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from FunkMonk

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  • I'll review soon. At first glance, as is customary, her full name should be spelled out in thge first section about her, as it is in the intro. I realise the circumstances with the Aboriginal naming conventions, but I think you should instead remove her full name from the caption to the infobox image, where it is less needed. FunkMonk (talk) 16:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The diseases could be linked in the infobox.
  • For the background, is it known which Aboriginal ethnic group she belonged to? In any case, I think it could be repeated under background that she was Aboriginal, I'm pretty sure it should be possible to read the article body as a stand alone entity without having read the lead (which is only supposed to be a summary of the article body itself).
  • "The payment does not prevent Dhu's family from taking further legal action, and is separate from a civil suit lodged in the Supreme Court of Western Australia in July 2017 by them." It seems a bit out of place that you suddenly change to present tense here (everything around it is past tense). Yes, the issues discussed there are recent, but this article will probably exist for many years to come.
  • Good point; done.
  • "Kelly-Ryder believes the publicity surrounding her case caused the withdrawal, though she asked" Likewise, mix of tenses, which I think is unneeded.
  • Done.
  • "As of May 2018" Do you plan to change this sentence every month? Seems unnecessary, why not just say "presently" or similar?
  • It's my understanding that I can't use terms like 'presently' as per WP:REALTIME, and that I will have to keep updating it.

Comments from Aoba47

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  • Do you think that you should include Ms. Dhu’s full name on the first instance in the body of the article? The full name is currently only present in the lead, and not in the body of the article.
  • For this sentence (according to her family, after leaving school she seemed to associate "with a bad crowd" and was a "wild child”.), I would add a comma between “school” and “she”.
  • For this part (when they woke her she appeared to be intoxicated), I would add a comma between “her” and “she”.
  • For this part (On one of the occasions she kicked a female police officer), I would add a comma between “occasions” and “she”.
  • The above four issues have been fixed.
  • Could you explain the placement of reference 11 after this part (One of its 339 recommendations)? It awkwardly cuts the sentence apart, and I was wondering if there is a way to move it to improve readability.
  • I've moved the citation placement.
  • For this sentence (On the anniversary of her death, multiple protests were held around Australia demanding an investigation into the matter.), do you think that you should specify the year of the anniversary (i.e. one-year anniversary, etc.)? I just think that it needs to be made clearer when these protests took place on a timeline.
  • For this part (on the first day it heard that Dhu's cause of death was), please add a comma between “day” and “it”.
  • For this part (The inquest heard that eleven police offers had received), please use “11” instead of “eleven”. I would also recommend that the numeral be used in this part (and ten police officers were interviewed as part of the inquest) instead of spelling it out.
  • For this part (rejected a suggestion that if Dhu had been white she), please add a comma between “white” and “she”.
  • The above four issues have been fixed.
  • I have a question about this sentence (Joe Francis, then Minister for Corrective Services, opposed any plans to end jailing people for unpaid fines.) Did Francis provide any reasons for his opposition?
  • I've added some sources from earlier that year that should explain the kind of human being he is.

Wonderful work with the article. Once my comments are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this. If you have time, I would greatly appreciate help with my current FAC. Either way, have a wonderful rest of your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 06:12, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for your review Aoba47. I'll be happy to review your nomination shortly. Freikorp (talk) 07:28, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from KJP1

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A very well-written article on a sad subject. Imprisonment for fines non-payment is also a controversial issue in England, but the number of recent aboriginal deaths in custody is the truly awful figure. Some comments, but nothing to stand in the way of support.

Lead
  • I doubt it's "solvable" but I see from the link that aboriginal custom also deprecates the dissemination of photos of the dead. You'll get the cultural sensitivities better than I but I wonder if there's any guidance on infobox images in such cases?
  • I'm not sure if there is any policy on this, but being a neutral encyclopaedia I would assume we do not have to respect cultural sensitivity (obviously I didn't upload her image to be intentionally disrespectful though). For example, it's against the Muslim faith to depict Muhammad, but the Wikipedia article on Muhammad has many depictions of him. Also I note Aboriginal people protesting her death could often be seeing carrying her image, and the official facebook site set up by her family (Facebook site:[3] Reference that her family set it up: [4]) has this image on it. I am not Aboriginal but I am aware that not all Aboriginal people are offended by depictions of the dead; I may be mistaken in this but it's also my understanding that some entire tribes do not have a problem with it, though others clearly do.
I'm sure you're right, and the article, and its readers, certainly benefit from the image. KJP1 (talk) 11:24, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Upon arriving at their address, the officers arrested Dhu and her partner" - perhaps, "Upon arriving at their address, the officers arrested both Dhu and her partner", given that her arrest is the surprising element?
  • "Police officers, who later accused her of faking her condition, carried her to the back of their van and returned her to the hospital; she was pronounced dead shortly after arrival" - I got confused here. When did they later accuse her, in that she died on this, the last, hospital visit? Is it actually "who had earlier accused her"?
  • "A coronial inquest" - quite correct but unusual terminology in England, where it would be "coroner's inquest", which you use later. Perhaps not unusual in Australia?
  • Honestly I'm not sure which version should be used. I wouldn't protest anyone changing it.
I think it's fine and it's certainly correct. It just threw me the first time I read it! KJP1 (talk) 11:24, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she had suffered "unprofessional and inhumane" treatment by police and "deficient" treatment from hospital staff" - to avoid the close doubling, perhaps something like, "she had suffered "unprofessional and inhumane" handling by police and "deficient" treatment from hospital staff"? There may well be something better.
Background - Ms Dhu
  • "By late December that year, Dhu's mother reported her daughter had become withdrawn" - was this an official "report" to somebody, or would something like noted be better?
Coroner's inquest
  • "These calls were supported by Greens MP Robin Chapple" - at first reading, I thought Greens was the Dhu family's constituency. Is it possible to clarify it's his party?
  • "multiple protests were held around Australia demanding an investigation into the matter" - given that you've used "the matter" in the sentence before, I think you could probably drop it here.
Aftermath
  • "At the time, a reform package to end jailing people for unpaid fines was expected to be heard in the WA state parliament later that year" - not sure one "hears" a package? Perhaps, a reform proposal...was expected to be debated/introduced"? And is it "is expected...this year"?
A sad chapter indeed, and a moving article, for which many thanks. No reciprocal reviewing required, but I shall certainly bear the offer in mind. KJP1 (talk) 08:26, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so much for your comments and support. I've addressed all concerns, with the exception of the two I've replied to above instead. Freikorp (talk) 11:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from 122.108.141.214

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Hi @Freikorp:, well done on this article. Has the scholarly literature been surveyed for articles on Ms Dhu, to more fully cover the subject? I found a couple and put them in the article as further reading. Ethan Blue's journal article discusses Ms Dhu's treatment as part of the international Black Lives Matter, SayHerName and Idle No More activist movements. Thank you. 122.108.141.214 (talk) 03:13, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. Thanks for your comment. Searching through my universities library catalogue with the search field "Ms Dhu" and the parameter of 'peer reviewed journals' gets me four hits. One is a false positive, of the other three, one is the 'Klippmark' source you added to the article as further reading. My university does not have access to the Ethan Blue article, though I've managed to obtain a copy via the Resource Exchange. I'll start looking through all the journal articles. I'll expand the article however I can with them and will reply here again once I am done. Cheers. Freikorp (talk) 05:25, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I have also found a recent government report into Indigenous incarceration rates which discusses Ms Dhu on a page and uses the inquest several times as a reference. Perhaps the report is more suited to the Indigenous Australians and crime article, but I thought I should present it anyway as it may provide useful background for the incarceration section. 122.108.141.214 (talk) 08:37, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've finished making use of the Klippmark source and the other two I found myself (one didn't have anything worth using). Let me know if you have any concerns about these changes so far. Hopefully I can integrate the Blue source into the article tomorrow. :) Freikorp (talk) 15:12, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, the edits look good, I'm glad it's been a simple fix. The listing of the activist movements looks a bit overly summarised, perhaps, but maybe further commentary from the Blue article can be used there. I've added in a bit about female fine defaulters in WA over the decade 2006-2016 from The Conversation Australia. 122.108.141.214 (talk) 23:14, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've finished expanding the article with academic sources. Thanks again for finding these. :) Freikorp (talk) 12:00, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are any of the additional further readings I've found useful to the article? For a nitpick: could more wikilinks be made to this article from other articles? (e.g. Black Lives Matter has an Australia section) Currently there are only four that link here, and two redirects. 122.108.141.214 (talk) 04:33, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do we know whether the new WA government implemented any findings from the inquest? 122.108.141.214 (talk) 04:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Holy shit. About three weeks ago the WA state government announced a CNS would be introduced by the end of 2018! I thought such an announcement would get nationwide coverage (I keep up to date with Australian news) but looks like only a couple smaller time sources reported on the matter. As of today though, the CNS is not up and running. I've updated the article accordingly. As of today, there's no update on the end to jailing people for unpaid fines beyond what's already in the article. I'll try and address your concerns about wikilinks and the further reading sources tomorrow. Freikorp (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's Western Australia: the eastern states are catered to, but WA has to threaten to secede to be heard. Glad it's in there now. For an additional nitpick on wikilinks, are there any red links that could be added to the article? (Like for the coroner's name?) 122.108.141.214 (talk) 00:03, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've added wikilinks to this article at Black Lives Matter, Felix Riebl and Joe Francis (politician). As a result of this article being nominated for FAC, another editor created the article Custody Notification Scheme. The only new articles that I can see potentially coming out of this now are for the coroner and possibly for the academic journal "Settler Colonial Studies". I can link them if you like; I'm not fussed either way. Will try and look at the further reading sources later today. Freikorp (talk) 00:27, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for this. Could a brief summary of the forthcoming CNS, and its connection with Ms Dhu, be mirrored onto the Aboriginal Legal Service of Western Australia article? 122.108.141.214 (talk) 00:32, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes I suppose it could. I'll consider doing that when I get a chance but this isn't the place to discuss improvements to other articles, this is just a review to access whether the current article meets the featured article criteria and accordingly whether people support or oppose its promotion. :) Freikorp (talk) 00:43, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The ALS of WA is another place where this article could be linked to, and this article was very almost an orphan. On a close reading of the criteria, there's no explicit recommendation that 'articles should not be orphans', but when I think about 'Wikipedia's best work', I think it should be linked to from relevant other articles. I do appreciate your patience with my suggestions. Thank you for the work you've put into addressing them. 122.108.141.214 (talk) 00:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your appreciation :), and thanks for expanding those other articles to have links to this one. I've looked through those three further reading sources now. I saw some good information to add in one and integrated it into the body, and furthermore one of the internal links at that article led me to a new source which I have also added to the article. I'm finished adding the information that I think is appropriate. :) Freikorp (talk) 11:26, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What should be done with the FRs that you don't regard as being useful? --122.108.141.214 (talk) 01:08, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm as far as I'm concerned they're not hurting anyone, and while I didn't find anything in them that I thought would improve the article they may very well be of interest to readers, so I was just going to leave them there. You're most welcome to remove them though if you like. :) Freikorp (talk) 08:25, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ceranthor

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  • "While in custody, Dhu complained of pain and was taken to hospital twice" - missing "the"; also which hospital?
  • "Hospital staff believed her complaints" - odd to repeat hospital twice in such close proximity
  • " A coronial inquest found that she had suffered "unprofessional and inhumane" handling by police and "deficient" treatment from hospital staff." - you should cite directly after a direct quote
  • "She was described as a "cheerful" child whose only health issue was mild asthma." - link asthma?
  • "She was bailed the next day " - shouldn't this be released on bail?
  • "over 1,000 people were sent to prison" - more than, not over
  • "Over the next 20 hours, witnesses saw Dhu crying, calling for help, asking to return to hospital and vomiting." - "the" hospital
  • "Dr Vafa Naderi" - there should be a period after Dr, and why is doctor spelled out for Annie Lang but not here?
  • "Dhu asked to go to hospital again on the morning of 4 August" - "the" before hospital again
  • "Her death marked around 340 Aboriginal deaths" - oddly phrased, shouldn't it be 'the X Aboriginal death'; also get rid of "around" and say roughly the X death or something like that to indicate uncertainty
  • "and for more money to be invested into communities, rather than prisons." - can you be more specific? into "communities"? what did they mean by that?
  • The source isn't any more specific than that I'm afraid. I've removed this.
  • "and promised to make sure that "the full truth will come out". " - citation after direct quote would be ideal
  • "and the then upcoming inquest." - rm "then" it's redundant
  • I'd replace septicaemia with "sepsis" since AFAIK septicemia isn't really used much anymore
  • "11 police offers" -- think this is a typo for "officers"

Otherwise, this is engaging and fascinating to read. Support on 1a. ceranthor 14:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for your comments. I've made all the recommended changes. Freikorp (talk) 08:40, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think the reference to the family calling for money going to communities rather than prisons is important (and reasonably clear at least in a WA context) - I think this should stay in, as a direct quote if necessary. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:57, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Added back with direct quote. Feel free to reword it if you like. :) Freikorp (talk) 09:25, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Interesting article on a subject I knew nothing about, nicely put together. There is just one point which you could consider (although it doesn't affect my support):
Is anything known about the "apprehended violence order" – particularly when it was taken out? It could be that a mention would be beneficial at the end of the Ms Dhu section so it's not sprung as a surprise at the start of the arrest section.
I leave that to your discretion, however. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:02, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your comment and support. Unfortunately the source that mentions the apprehended violence order (AVO) doesn't state when it was taken out, and the inquest into her death doesn't mention it at all. Upon re-reading the source given it doesn't actually explicitly state the AVO was taken out by Dhu. Theoretically, it could have been taken out by a former partner. I've reworded the article accordingly. Freikorp (talk) 14:23, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks for checking for the further details. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:30, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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