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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dhoby Ghaut MRT station/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 15 October 2021 [1].

Dhoby Ghaut MRT station

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Nominator(s): ZKang123 (talk) 06:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a major MRT interchange station in Singapore. Following the failed first nomination, I have rewritten several parts of the article to avoid close paraphrasing, with the guidance of other editors. ZKang123 (talk) 06:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments asking for more

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Not essential but if you are able to get more and better pics of the artworks I think that would be interesting.

Not essential but can you get a plan or get the graphics workshop to draw one?

Any stats on usage? Usage as % design capacity? And why do people use it - mostly shoppers? workers? tourists?

Is the airflow good against covid do we know?

Heath e.g. defibrillator?

Emergency precautions and procedures for fire, terrorism etc? Is there a passage to the CD shelter?

History before the contract was awarded? For example traffic problems beforehand? why is it in that place, was there an open tender, public opinion, politics?

Operating finance - e.g. is advertising allowed on the walls?

Buskers presumably not allowed in Singapore?

  • (Additional comment)

Additionally, if you liked these comments, please add a comment or 2 here Chidgk1 (talk) 14:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, thanks for your comments. However, there arent't official sources for these, or news that thoroughly mention traffic patterns and stuff. The Land Transport Authority doesnt give detailed information like passenger patterns in the station and stuff. Whats on the page is what I can get from available sources.--ZKang123 (talk) 06:27, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK I have never been to Singapore but it seems from casual research that the station must by law have an "emergency response plan" but that Singapore does not have a freedom of information act - so I understand your difficulty in getting hold of official info. But maybe if you live nearby you can get some of the above - for example the existing pics are not bad but if convenient it would be nice to have close pics of more of the art such as "Universal Language" which sounds interesting. Chidgk1 (talk) 10:20, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, but here we dont have FOP for 2D artworks, so I cant really show any close-up of the artwork (I do have some shots of the floor tiles, but I dont think they are worthy of upload due to the weird angle). Besides, I dont think its necessary to flood the page with too many pictures.
Also we do have a layout diagram but there will be some trouble recreating it without violating copyright.--ZKang123 (talk) 10:26, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh OK I don't know much about copyright. An academic search such as "Google Scholar" on the station name may get more info. For example are you allowed to use the layout diags in https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/523/1/012057/meta perhaps simplified at the Graphics lab?

Keep searching and I expect you will find more info - like https://www.lta.gov.sg/content/ltagov/en/newsroom/2019/5/2/joint-news-release-by-the-land-transport-authority-lta-sbs-transit-smrt---joint-ground-deployment-exercise-to-validate-.html

I find such info to be more useful on mainspace MRT pages. I dont really wish to add info that will make the station article too much of a tourist/transport guide.--ZKang123 (talk) 11:03, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now I concede that not all my suggestions are good and that info that should be on https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Singapore should not be here. But I do believe that you would be able to add more to the article if you dig around a bit more. At the moment I don't think the article is comprehensive enough to be featured. Perhaps there is a featured article for a metro station somewhere in the world that you can refer me to and prove me wrong? Chidgk1 (talk) 17:10, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, from the metro stations FAs I came across (like Aldwych tube station), they don't go into detail on shops and stuff. Also in the design section, I actually mentioned about a Civil Defence shelter being close to the station. However, I will look into your suggestions and try to find more material.--ZKang123 (talk)
I cannot remember whether Aldwych had any shops. Anyway if you achieve featured status this will likely be the first modern metro station to be featured - which will be a great example to others so I am glad you are working on this Chidgk1 (talk) 10:44, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have added more information on shops and also wheelchair accessible amenities in the station. Will also add more about fire safety.--ZKang123 (talk) 05:14, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

retail problems https://mothership.sg/2020/10/red-cross-pop-up-store/ https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/ghost-town-shops-orchard-xchange-tell-sluggish-business-landlord-smrt-moves-take-back

fig 10 for example https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Spiros-Antonatos/publication/277668515_Traffic_measurement_and_route_recommendation_system_for_Mass_Rapid_Transit_MRT/links/55c30dc208aeca747d5ddd8b/Traffic-measurement-and-route-recommendation-system-for-Mass-Rapid-Transit-MRT.pdf although you should try and find more reliable source

Comparisons can be made with these station fa's: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stations#Featured content Dracophyllum 22:07, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, mothership is largely self-published. I will look into adding the retail section.--ZKang123 (talk) 06:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for adding stuff - I withdraw my opposition but would have to read carefully to see if I support - ping me if you want me to check Chidgk1 (talk) 18:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Chidgk1: you are free to check.--ZKang123 (talk) 12:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ZKang123: Much better than before but I now have a few more comments:

NEL and CCL abbreviations used in lead before being defined in contents

Fixed.--ZKang123 (talk)

Consider using less exact dates in lead

Fixed.--ZKang123 (talk)

Is it open continuously?

Yes. There are no closures or anything like that.--ZKang123 (talk) 07:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1st para of history section needs improving as tenses a bit confusing - "will" and "was expected" - so were they in fact done?

Fixed. Yes they were done.--ZKang123 (talk)

"Previously, the station was part of a line service that ran continuously from Yishun station in the north to Lakeside station in the west." so the single line was split into multiple lines? could maybe use a diagram to show or link to section of an article which explains. Also maybe move this earlier in history.

Basically there was a through service from Yishun to Lakeside. Now the MRT operations split so that NSL (the station it is on) serves from Yishun (now extended to Jurong East) to Marina Bay (which extended to Marina South Pier). Here's the MRT map for reference.--ZKang123 (talk) 07:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mention it is on the inner spur of the circle line - it took me a little while to understand how it was a terminus on a circle

Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 07:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"In the planning stages of the Marina Line (MRL), which will become the CCL Stage 1 (CCL1), the station was to be the terminus of one of the line's branches." - are these tenses right?Chidgk1 (talk) 06:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rewritten part for more clarity and added a line diagram map for clarity.--ZKang123 (talk) 07:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the above issues.--ZKang123 (talk) 07:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Chidgk1: sorry for the ping but are there further issues?--ZKang123 (talk) 12:34, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Art section comments

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Some grammar and small comments :)

a) "Sun simultaneously wanted commuters to enjoy his work." >> This makes no sense without another clause. E.g: "..., while also..."

b) "Derived from the station's role as a "gateway" for arts and culture in the area, he hoped to explore an "objective" and "pure form of expression" that connect to all cultures." >> ... that connected to all ...

c) "The work intends to connect commuters to their immediate environment while considering the station's functionality and environment." >> Repetition of environment should go.

d) "In creating the artwork, Baet used pencil and paper to sketch rubbings, and he used plasticine to capture moulds." >> Delete "he used."

e) "By using white for the work, Baet intended to avoid distracting commuters and hoped to make audiences comfortable" >> Audience probably isn't the right word here. Maybe: "... and hoped instead to make them comfortable."

f) "These seats, while functional and practical, are designed to improve commuters' experience on the line." >> I feel like the practical aspect of the seats is what makes the commuters' experience better, which makes the it seem off.

g) The first paragraph in the public art section should talk more about the fact that they are lanterns and less in the abstract.

Ok that's all I have for now, thanks :) Dracophyllum 11:46, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed above concerns.--ZKang123 (talk) 11:39, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The prose issues in the art section and the wider article having being resolved, I'm gonna give this a support. Well done! Dracophyllum 10:25, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

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This has been open for 17 days and is showing little sign of gaining a consensus to promote. Unless this changes by the three week mark i am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

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I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

Lede
Prose
Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 22:39, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Epicgenius

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I will add a few comments later. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:03, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • "Located in Dhoby Ghaut, Museum Planning Area, at the eastern end of Orchard Road shopping belt" - I would suggest something like "Located at the eastern end of Orchard Road shopping belt in Dhoby Ghaut, Museum Planning Area". By the way, is Museum Planning Area a legally defined census division or just a neighbourhood?
  • "as part of the original MRT line extension" - I think you should give a little context, maybe a few words, about the original MRT line in the lead. Many outsiders wouldn't know offhand that the original MRT line was split into the East West and North South lines. Furthermore, it may read better if you said "as part of an extension of the original MRT line".
  • "Since 4 November 1989, the North South line serves the station" - this should be "the North South line has served the station"

History:

  • "from the Novena to Outram Park stations" - For consistency, this should be either "from Novena to Outram Park stations" or "from the Novena station to the Outram Park station".
  • "Before work began, tenants of Amber Mansions had had to move out to make way for the construction of this station" - This wording is awkward. Something like "Before work began, tenants of Amber Mansions were compelled to relocate for the station's construction" may be better.
  • Shouldn't the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph, about land acquisition beginning in 1978, be relocated to the beginning of the section? Especially if the land was acquired for the MRT.
  • "Due to the station's soft marine clay" - The ground has soft marine clay.
  • "near Cathay Cinema" - I presume this was right next to the station site?
  • "the three pieces of timber, intended to support the crane," - Either the commas can be removed (i.e. "Investigations revealed that three pieces of timber, intended to support the crane, were not properly fastened and inadequate in providing support") or the "the" before "three pieces of timber" could be removed. If you add commas, then it indicates that the crane fell because there were three pieces of timber supporting it, which failed. If you remove "the", then it indicates the crane was supported by at least three pieces of timber, of which three failed.
  • "in September that year" - This should be "That September".
  • "the system operational split on 4 November 1989" - Like I said for the lead, this needs a little clarification, as not all people know about the split.
  • "The NEL station was constructed with considerable difficulty" - This could be rephrased to "The NEL station's construction was considerably difficult".
  • "Motion detectors had to be set up to monitor the effects of the construction" - Presumably to prevent settlement (structural)?
  • "The MRL was later confirmed to serve from this station to Stadium station in November 1999" - This sounds strange to me. Was the MRL routing finalised between these two stations, or was it just that the MRL would serve some stops between these two stations? Would the MRL just run between these two stations, or was this part of a longer line?
  • "support was needed to keep the underpass stable" - I would suggest active voice for this sentence, e.g. "the underpass was stabilised"
  • "began operations" - I would just say "began operating" or even "opened".

Station details

  • I'd recommend splitting the info about the Jewish cemetery into its own sentence.
  • "The station name, Dhoby Ghaut" - Just wondering which language this is in.
  • For that matter, what does "walking distance" mean in this context? What is the distance you're using to determine which landmarks are being mentioned? (I know these are in the sources, but it would be helpful to mention something like "within a few hundred metres".
  • "The official station code is NS24/NE6/CC1" - Should this be "The official codes are"?
  • "the next adjacent station being Bras Basah station" - This is redundant as "next" and "adjacent" mean the same thing.
  • "and increases" - There are a few issues with this. First, grammatically this should be "increasing". Second, the headway is 5-6 minutes off-peak and 2-3 minutes peak; the frequency would be 10-12 trains per hour off-peak and 20-30 tph peak. So this would need to be clarified, as the headways would decrease if the frequency increases.
  • "180 metres (590 ft) long" - This should be "180-metre (590 ft)-long", i.e. {{convert|180|m|ft|adj=on}}-long
  • I assume the NSL station is the shallowest. I also assume the five levels include concourses, but it would be good to clarify this. (On an unrelated note, it's a shame the station layouts were removed as they would've been useful here.)
  • "until they were surpassed by Bras Basah station on the CCL in 2010" - I suggest "until 2010, when Bras Basah station on the CCL opened".
  • "The station itself is not designated as a Civil Defence shelter" - Are MRT stations typically CD shelters? If so, then this should be rephrased to "Unlike many other MRT stations, the station..." If not, then see my next point.
  • "an underground car park underneath the ten-storey tower are designated shelters instead" - First, "are designated shelters" should be changed to "is a designated shelter", as the car park is a single thing. Second, if MRT stations aren't typically CD shelters, then I would move this to the beginning and rephrase this as something like "An underground car park underneath the ten-storey tower is designated as a Civil Defence shelter, though the station itself is not designated as such."
  • "The station also has wheelchair-friendly facilities for the disabled" - This is also redundant as "wheelchair-friendly" necessarily means the facility accommodates the disabled.
  • "The NSL station has been upgraded to include lifts, ramps and dedicated toilets for the disabled" - But it was not built with accessible facilities?
  • "onsisting of tiles with rounded or elongated raised studs" - What type of tactile paving is this? It sounds like this type (though that image doesn't look like DBG). I would link tactile paving as well.

Public art

  • "A mobile sculpture Lantern of Music" - I would remove "a", which is unnecessary as this is a specific named sculpture.
  • I went over the "Public art" section in my previous reviews of the article, and it doesn't look too different from before. I'll address this later and see if anything significant still sticks out.

Overall, this looks good. Coverage-wise, there may be some information like retail presence (which Chidgk1 mentions above) that could be added to the design sections. But I disagree with them on the inclusion of other things like COVID airflow and advertising, as that may get a little too granular for FA. Epicgenius (talk) 14:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support - My comments at the peer review and on this nomination look like they've been sufficiently addressed. The public-art section looks good. – Epicgenius (talk) 12:32, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from TRM

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That's a starting point. Will crack on with the next few sections when we're done here. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 19:53, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That takes me to "Public art". The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 19:27, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Public art onwards

  • (previous section: "between the Somerset and City Hall stations" both overlinked)
  • (previous section: "adjacent station is Bras Basah station" overlinked)
  • "Art-in-Transit programme" it seems to be that since this forms a fundamental part of most if not all of these MRT articles that the "Art-in-Transit programme" should have its own article.
    • I am still working on it, but been busy recently.--12:47, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
  • "Milenko's earthy" "earthy" there doesn't link to anything.
  • "practical.[94][95][94]" uses 94 twice?
    • Fixed.--!!!

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:20, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great, happy with the changes per my comments, so supporting. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:20, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

Nikkimaria ? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:14, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All issues raised have been responded to. IMO there is still an overemphasis of non-independent sources, but I'm not opposing over that issue. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:10, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-check

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That's all from me. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:02, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, but I cannot provide the pages of the artwork books. They are only available for reference in the national library (which is quite a distance away from where I live). I did have photos of the pages but I have deleted them after working on the artwork section.--ZKang123 (talk) 13:13, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like this passes the spotcheck, subject to reliability & didn't-check-inaccessible-sources caveats. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:46, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by CactiStaccingCrane

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I have fixed most of ce errors, which most are very minor. I think the article gets a pass on prose. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 02:05, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • Images all have appropriate licensing.
  • Some other concerns:
    • The first map (of early phases) does not seem to be necessary, as this station's lines are not its primary subject. The Marine line map fits much better.
    • File:CC1 Dhoby Ghaut MRT Platform B C830C.jpg - fairly low quality and redundant to the other platform image, so it can probably be left out.
  • ALT issues:
    • Most of the ALT descriptions are quite lacking in detail, with only the bare minimum used. Some examples and suggestions:
    • Infobox image - "Photograph of station entrance" should be expanded to mention the stairs, shape of the entrance, and its materials
    • NSL platforms of the station - "Station platforms" only describes a fifth of the image
    • Map of the planned Marina Line - Should add the branches and location of Dhoby Ghaut on the map.
    • Matrix at the CCL platform - Should mention the other elements of the photograph

SounderBruce 00:46, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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