Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Donald Hardman/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 10:50, 31 July 2017 [1].

Donald Hardman

edit
Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 23:57, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Time for another RAAF chief, this one being the second and last RAF officer to run the service. That caused resentment, but it soon dissipated. Hardman had a good pedigree: fighter ace in World War I, foreign postings between the wars, and group command in World War II. He also seems to have been a likeable bloke, as well as an imaginative organiser. His main claim to fame is that he transformed the Air Force from its WWII-era geographically based command-and-control system into a functional command system, which essentially exists today. The article's post-military section is a bit thin, but I think he just lived a quiet life -- I've combed British newspaper archives for mentions and it pretty well amounts to a few letters he wrote to The Times... Thanks to all who participated at the MilHist A-Class Review a while back, and in advance to everyone who comments here! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Just a note on the caption to the image showing Hardman with Mountbatten in 1954. Mountbatten had long since ceased to be "Lord Louis" by then. That was his courtesy title as the son of a marquis. He was given a viscountcy in his own right in 1946, and an earldom in 1947. So the caption should correctly refer to "Earl Mountbatten", or "Lord Mountbatten" at a pinch. Trivial stuff I know, but still... Brianboulton (talk) 13:02, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tks Brian, I was following the caption at the source Australian War Memorial image, but they can get things wrong occasionally too -- the best compromise is probably "Lord Mountbatten" so will change accordingly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:39, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Wehwalt

edit

Support Interesting read. Really couldn't find much to complain about:

  • "Hardman shot down two German Fokker D.VIIs in flames." I'm not sure you can split the phrase like that, possibly "Hardman sent two German Fokker D.VIIs down in flames."
  • "India's North-West Frontier" a parenthetical that it's now Pakistan might be handy. Similarly, " Comilla, India." might mention it's Bangladesh.
  • "St George's Church in Hanover Square, London" This is usually referred to as "St George's, Hanover Square" and I would say "in London" so as to separate it.
  • You might want to mention how he got back from France in 1940, if it is known.
  • You have a mix of 10 and 13 digit ISBNs in the refs.
    I can't find anything in the MOS about this. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:32, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I seem to recall being advised to always use 13 digits if available but can't recall if it was based on something in MOS or not -- the mix would be due to my earliest work on the article pre-dating that advice. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:44, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Or the books you're using predate ISBN-13. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments by Peacemaker67

edit

This is the first time I've looked at this article, and it is in fine shape. I have a few comments/queries:

  • suggest "and appointed as one".
    • Done.
  • I'm personally not a fan of "kills", you might like to use victories? No biggie either way really.
    • I think I used it to reduce repetition of the term "victories" but fair enough -- done.
  • when mentioning the termination of his commission, you might mention that was a standard part of demobilisation, otherwise readers might wonder why, given his outstanding record
    • Yeah, perhaps I'm a bit conservative but I prefer not to embellish with details that aren't in the cited sources even when it's undoubtedly the case -- the alternative is "ceased to be employed" by the RAF, which is language used in the source, but not sure that's an improvement.
  • any hint of seeing action in India in the 1920s?
  • again, "bombing duties" in Egypt indicates there might have been action?
    • Not explicitly -- the best I've been able to do is give a flavour of the two units' duties at the time Hardman was posted to them.
  • any action in France in 1939–1940? or was he a staff officer?
    • Strongly suspect the latter but again this isn't made clear.

That's me done. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:57, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tks PM! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:38, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a little light on for detail in parts, but if that's what is available on him I think it meets the comprehensiveness criteria, and it easily meets all the other criteria, so happy to support. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:15, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Hawkeye7

edit

Looks fine. I have some comments.

  • "fatal crash" links to "Avro Vulcan", which I consider a bit strange. Wouldn't it be better to link to 1956 London Heathrow Avro Vulcan crash?
    • Indeed -- I'd added this bit to the Hardman article before the crash article was created.
  • "He was succeeded by Air Marshal McCauley" We don't need "Air Marshal"
    • Fair enough.
  • As an aside, I found it interesting that he was commissioned when he was 17 years old. If he had joined the AFC, he would have been held back in the UK until his 19th birthday, and would never have seen action at all.
  • You mention that Burnett's tenure at CAS was controversial. This article doesn't say why, but it was mainly because (a) he was a British officer appointed by Menzies when more qualified RAAF officers were available; (b) he put Britain first and oriented the RAAF towards European commitments; and (c) he wasn't highly regarded in the RAF and indeed was retired when he returned to the UK. Your article then notes that Hardman did the same. The concept of "attacking the enemy's vital centres, which included its means of producing fighters" which makes very little or no sense in the context of South East Asia or the Middle East, and really wouldn't have applied in the UK either, leaving the impression that his thinking was stalled in 1939. On return to the UK, he did assume another post, but one usually reserved for an officer on the brink of retirement (With the curious exception of Sir William Dickson).
    • Re. Burnett, I felt that details on his tenure would slow the Hardman narrative, especially as Burnett's linked WP article goes into it. Re. the Burnett parallels, and the "vital centres" question, I take your point but can only reflect how the sources put it, and none I've seen raise these issues.
  • Did he envisage the V-bombers being used in the conventional or nuclear role?
    • His ADB bio suggests it, so tweaked the article.
  • Like Peacemaker, I was a little disappointed with the coverage of World War II, particularly the Combined Cargo Task Force, but also the work of the Directorate of Military Co-operation. But you work with what you have.

Cheers. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:27, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tks for review and suggestions Hawkeye. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:42, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Ealdgyth

edit
  • I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors. Earwig's tool shows a couple of spots where the prose is probably a little close and could be tweaked a bit.
Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:50, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much Ealdgyth -- I think a lot of the similarities re. postings and promotions is probably unavoidable but there were certainly a couple of spots where I could have used a little more imagination in my phrasing, now rectified I hope. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:59, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: I think we just need an image review for this now. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review from Hawkeye7

edit
All images are appropriately licensed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks Hawkeye. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:23, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Donald_Hardman/archive1&oldid=793313578"