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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Driving in Madagascar/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 16 August 2023 [1].

Driving in Madagascar

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Nominator(s): Red-tailed hawk (nest) 20:56, 11 July 2023 (UTC) and Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) (UTC) 20:56, 11 July 2023 (UTC) [reply]

This article is about driving in the island nation of Madagascar. The article was peer reviewed at Wikipedia:Peer review/Driving in Madagascar/archive1. As a note of trivia, this article was the redlink example at WP:REDDEAL, between September 2015 and January 2023. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 20:56, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First-time nomination

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  • Hi Red-tailed hawk and Tamzin, and welcome to FAC. Just noting that as you are both first time nominators at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:27, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • File:Madagascar_Transportation.jpg: source link is dead
  • File:Seal_of_Madagascar.svg needs a tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:37, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • First fixed. Will defer to my Commons-admin coäuthor on handling the latter. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 05:09, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • For the second one, I'm going to need to do some digging if we're to keep that image in the template. It's very possible that the seal that is on Commons is an original design based upon the text of the law that authorized the seal (i.e. it's genuinely own work and granted to the public domain), but I'm not able to figure that out. I've changed the image in the underlying template to be that of Madagascar's flag, which is undoubtedly in the public domain due to its simplicity. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 20:26, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Epicgenius

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Reserving a spot. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:58, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:
  • In general, given the length of this article (12K bytes of prose), and given the shortness of each paragraph, I would suggest combining the lead paragraphs into two or three paragraphs total. Technically MOS:LEADLENGTH recommends only 1-2 paragraphs for an article of this size, but the article seems detailed enough that three paragraphs may be acceptable. But see my other comments below for paragraph-specific recommendations.
  • "The road network of Madagascar, comprising about 4,500 unique roads spanning 31,640 kilometers (19,660 mi), is designed around roads built to facilitate transportation to and from Antananarivo, the Malagasy capital." - This basically boils down to "the road network ... is designed around roads", which sounds awkward. I suggest "The road network ... is designed to facilitate transportation to and from Antananarivo"
  • "While most primary roads are in good condition, the World Food Program" - Our article spells the WFP the World Food Programme. Usually, WP:ENGVAR does not apply to proper names (see MOS:CONSISTENT). Is there a reason that we are using American English for this proper name?
  • "While most primary roads are in good condition, the World Food Programme has classified two-thirds of the roads as being in poor condition." - I would say "...the World Food Programme has classified two-thirds of the overall road network as being in poor condition." or something similar. Two-thirds of the roads sounds like you have a road where two lanes are in poor condition and one lane is in good condition.
  • The third paragraph of the lead reads like a mishmash of various facts: right-side driving, vehicle convoys, car collision fatalities, random police checkpoints.
  • "in order to deter attacks from dahalo" - "In order" does not seem necessary here.
  • "suggest that the rate of car collision fatalities is among the highest in the world" - Any specific figures?
  • "Human-powered vehicles, once the only means of road transport" - Do you know when this stopped being the case?
  • "vehicles involved are often overpacked with people" - As opposed to overpacked with animals? (I'm genuinely interested if you said "overpacked with people", as opposed to just "overpacked" or "overcrowded", because there may be a form of taxi-brousse that transports animals. I haven't read the entire article though.)
More later. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In order:
  • I agree, though I think that restructuring the lead is probably the final thing to do after all requisite changes are to the body, so I'm going to defer on that at the moment. I've preliminarily merged par. 3 with par. 4 in the meantime.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • See bullet 1.
  • Done, though I've rearranged that sentence.
  • The body says "Madagascar has the 24th-highest fatality rate out of 175 countries or regions assessed", citing this report, which in turn cited this report. This was condensed for the lead, but I have no objection to adding the statistic in the lead. (CC: Tamzin).
  • Not later than 1902 (see: [2]), but I don't have a source that affirmatively gives a particular year for that specific fact. If I were a betting man, I'd say it's that year, but that would be original research.
  • Done. Pages 70 and 72 of the source in the body gives the phrase Regional and local services are typically systematically overloaded and characterizes the vehicles as person-transport, but I think removing the extraneous "with people" doesn't lose anything of value.
— Red-tailed hawk (nest) 04:34, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Red-tailed hawk. I would be grateful if you could have a quick re-read of the FAC instructions, especially the bit starting "Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages." Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:58, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Noted and fixed for the {{Done}} templates. With respect to the icons that display beside PDF links, I don't think that there's a way to remove them, but I hope the template fix suffices. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to avoid making the lede too much of a "number soup", as can often be the case with this kind of article. I'm not hard opposed to including "24th of 175 countries" in the lede, but I'm also not immediately seeing a reason to do so. I have thoughts on other lede improvements but likewise will defer until the body's sorted.
Tomorrow I can try to find a source on when animal-drawn vehicles arrived in the country, and for that matter when motorized ones did, but I'm not hugely optimistic I'll find anything. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 04:46, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the lead, sounds good. I think we can revisit these after I'm done reviewing the body, My approach is typically to review the article more or less from top to bottom, which is why I started with the lead. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:55, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Did the promised dive. I found significantly more on the history of human-powered vehicles in Madagascar, and have added that to the article, but still came up totally blank on when animal-drawn vehicles began to replace them, and when cars began to replace them in turn. However, it appears the 1902 claim that animal-drawn vehicles were never used is incorrect, so I've clarified that and have just cut any reference to post-1902 developments (until the statistics from the '50s). -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 06:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
History:
  • "There were no roads in Madagascar as of the middle of the 19th century" - I suggest something like "through the mid-19th century". Otherwise, it sounds like you couldn't find anything more recent than the mid-19th century.
  • "Even as late as 1955, passenger and commercial motor vehicles in Madagascar numbered under 30,000." - Do you have any more-recent statistics regarding the number of motor vehicles?
  • In general, this paragraph is quite short. Do you have any info about the road network after 1958? You only mention the one road from Mahatsara to Antananarivo; are there any other major roads worth mentioning?
More later. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:00, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In order:

Comments from Airship

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As always, these are suggestions, not demands. Feel free to refuse with justification. Welcome to FAC; this'll probably focus on prose and layout. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • First sentence is a bit odd. What, you can only go to and from the capital? If you want to drive from Ihosy to Marovoay via Mahabo and Besalampy, do you also have to stop off at Antananarivo?
  • Something's off about the taxi brousses sentence in the first paragraph—maybe it feels (to me) slightly WP:UNDUE. I think you're probably going for some sort of one-sentence summary of the means of transport section, and if that's the case, I would include a small clause stating "Only a small proportion of [Madagascar people noun] own private vehicles, so taxi brousses..." Or something like that anyway.
  • Nicely ingenious/readable use of notes in table/translation. Not really about the lead, just felt it was praiseworthy.
  • "While most primary roads are in good condition, the World Food Programme has classified nearly two-thirds of the overall road network as being in poor condition. These conditions ..." Two things:
  • "in good condition ... in poor condition. These conditions ..." I think a synonym can be used without compromising WP:ELEGANT.
  • The World Food Programme??? When did they get into the business of road classification? I guess logistics probably do play a major part in feeding the hungry. I remember reading about the 2021–2022 Madagascar famine a while back.
  • maybe link Banditry while dahalo is redlinked? idk
  • "Partial reporting of car collision fatalities and a World Health Organization approximation of a full number" this takes a bit too much care with attribution in the lead. Something like "The rate of car collision fatalities is estimated to be among the highest in the world." is perfectly fine IMO
  • That sentence anyway reads a bit odd in between sentences on bandit attacks and police checkpoints, which sound like they should flow into each other. Maybe move it to the previous paragraph with the rest about dangerous roads.
  • Maybe the bits about dahalo and police could also be moved to the previous section? Leaving the final paragraph near-entirely devoted to vehicle/transportation types sounds logical to me. It's a bit confused at the moment, as I see was mentioned above.
  • The "As of 2005" as written makes it sound liked the taxi brousses may not be overpacked by the present day. Clarify that the year only refers to the pricing.

A rather good lead, that. More to follow. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In re "ingenious", thanks! I always feel like custom ref groups are underused. In re WFP, yes, a bit strange, but seems reliable enough with attribution; not sure if you had a concern there or just a side thought. In re banditry, y'know, I've wished there were a {{link if other article does not exist}} à l'{{ill}} (and maybe should just create it myself), but that aside, I'm not sure if that'd be overlinking or not. No strong feelings. In re lede flow, yes, gonna work on that once I've addressed all more micro concerns. All other concerns addressed in line with your suggestions (I think!). -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 01:42, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prose comments by CT55555

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A good article. Lots of mostly minor and mild suggestions, some borderline pedantic (but worth saying to avoid confusion, I hope) and two important ones:

  1. In the Road conditions section, say what year the World Food Program + Global Logistics Cluster assessments were done.
  2. In 2018, the World Bank predicted that climate change could worsen road connectivity. Since 5 years have passed, and this was a prediction, is there anything that could be added to confirm the prediction?
  3. Means of Transport: So there were 30,000 vehicles in 1955, that is clear. It is not clear when there was 800,000 vehicles. I think a year for the 800,000 number is needed.
  4. Vehicle ownership stats table. It talks about "trucks" I find the word "truck" to mean quite different things in different parts of the world. Can you do something to define "truck"?
  5. Taxi brousses. The section gives the 2005 price. That's OK, but could a more recent price be added?
  6. Same section. Are the words "although this is not universally true" superfluous? I'm unsure. Just a very mild suggestion.
  7. Same section: I am confused by the words "National lines". Is that the name of a company? A type of taxi? Something else? Can this be made clearer please?
  8. Same section, I think a word is missing from " most used on paved roads" should it maybe be "most vehicles used on paved roads"?
  9. Same section, use of "trucks" again I think is a confusing word, given the global geographic variations in the word's use.
  10. Maybe "capacity" should be defined. Is it the manufacturer's recommended capacity? A regulated capacity? Because literally speaking, if a vehicle has 10 people in it, that appears to be the capacity, i.e. the capacity is what it can hold.
  11. Cargo transport: "Ethnic asians"? Is Asia an ethnicity? It's a huge continent with very many ethnicities I think. I think this is a problematic (western centric) grouping.
  12. A translation of Alimentation en Eau dans le Sud would be helpful.
  13. I find the sentence "The blood alcohol content limit for drunk driving is..." weird. That's really the limit for sober driving, not the limit for drunk driving, right? Is there a better way to say this?
  14. "There is a seatbelt law". I think most people can deduce that there is a law that requires them to be worn. But it could be a law that requires them to be fitted, or manufactured to a certain standard. A little bit more detail on what the law requires (wearing, presumably) would be an improvement.
  15. It gets slightly strange for me when we are saying what the US government says is legal in Madagascar rather than local sources, especially when the implication is that the US got it wrong. Can we write this citing local and/or non contradictory sources?
  16. Change 10 for "ten"
  17. Change "Vehicles seek to travel at higher speeds" to "Drivers seek..." as vehicles don't seek anything themselves.
  18. Say who mans the checkpoints? Officials presumably?

Suggestions that I consider important are the ones around ethnicity comment and use of the word "truck".

Thank you for the comments. I'll take a look at some of these that Tamzin hasn't already hit on. With respect to "truck", we've bluelinked truck so as to provide the reader more context if they don't understand what is meant by truck. It's admittedly a bit of an WP:ENGVAR issue, but the article is written in American English, so "lorry" is probably not going to work. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 20:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Red-tailed hawk, have you finished addressing ((u|CT55555}}'s comments? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:52, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't consider point #11 to be addressed. While most comments were minor suggestions, this seems important. CT55555(talk) 17:34, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(non-nominator comment) I don't believe "ethnic Asians" means "people with an ethnicity named Asian" but rather "people with ethnicities from the continent of Asia"—in any case, this is what the source says CT55555 ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:15, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Bneu2013

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Will have comments soon. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:12, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • "While most primary roads are in good condition" - this sounds like an opinion. Has some agency or organization declared them to be in good condition?
  • De-hyphen "moderate-to-high speeds".
  • Could you elaborate on what "dahalo" are?
  • I would remove the parentheses around "often narrow, one-lane structures", and reword the sentence to accommodate this as necessary.
  • As others have pointed out, is 2005 the most recent date that this price data is available from?
  • "Stops on their routes are generally not fixed"
History
  • "There were no roads in Madagascar through the mid-19th century" - Were there no roads until the mid-19th century or until after the mid-19th century? I would reword to clarify.
  • Did these pathways evolve into the road network of today?
  • What was the transportation system like under the Merina Kingdom?
  • "Even as late as 1955,"
  • If find it hard to believe that more people were traveling by airplane than by car. Can you elaborate on this?
  • Split run-on sentence at the end of second paragraph.
Roads
  • When you say the country has a small network, does this mean that the road density per land area is smaller than average?
  • Comma after "Toliara".
  • Unlink second "Toamasino" in this paragraph.
  • When did the toll highway begin construction, and when is it expected to be completed?
  • Unhyphenate "seven-in-ten".
  • Flip refs 13 and 10.
  • "The World Bank further linked poor connectivity" - replace "World Bank" with "report".
Means of transport
  • Is 2013 the most recent date that data about the number of vehicles is available?

Coord note

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At 4 weeks in and no supports, I would expect the nomination to be archived within a few days if there is no significant progress. (t · c) buidhe 01:53, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've been very busy in real life recently, though I can try to make progress this weekend. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:19, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am on the verge of timing out this nomination. Can I suggest that you address the comments of the various reviewers ASAP - where not already done - and ping them with a polite request to review your responses in turn ASAP? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:27, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Five weeks in and just the single general support. In the absence of any movement towards a consensus to promote I am timing out this nomination. The usual two-week hiatus will apply. I suggest that the time is used to address the comments above, and perhaps to communicate with the reviewers prior to any re-nomination.


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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