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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Eastern green mamba/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 22 December 2019 [1].

Eastern green mamba

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Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:52, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is was one of the latter ones improved by a person now banned for sockpuppetry. I took a look at sourcing and prose to check for problems and found this in better shape than I expected (feared). So I thought about buffing it for the main page, searched for all the sources I could and here we are. Have at it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:52, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Quick sources comment: Ref 4: you seem to have replicated the url into the "publisher=" field of the template, and got an ugly red error message as a consequence. Brianboulton (talk) 11:40, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced it with a better reference Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:17, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Jens Lallensack

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  • However, Pook and colleagues – with the "however", I thought an opposite view would be presented, but no … maybe the "however" is not ideal.
Removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, the species has also been observed – same as above
Removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • otherwise aroused in some way – "in some way" seems unnecessary.
Removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • and east Africa. – capitalize East Africa?
Capped Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • sit-and-wait behavior – behaviour with different spelling than elsewhere.
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • 30 to 40 cm (12 to 16 in) or around an average of 44 centimetres – abbreviation of cm should be uniform. Also, a dot is missing in this and the also in the next sentence.
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The longest living – here I first thought it is continuing talking about body length (as in the preceding sentence). Maybe use "oldest" to avoid this confusion?
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
the latter...and fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:41, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:08, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

I haven't done one before - will go look at another and see what I can do. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:24, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

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I have done a little copy editing, which you will want to check.

your edits look fine Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:58, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link elapids at first mention in both lead and article.
linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Link venom.
linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Symptoms of envenomation by this species include swelling of the bite site, dizziness and nausea, accompanied by difficulty breathing and swallowing, irregular heartbeat and convulsions progressing to respiratory paralysis." Maybe a semi colon after "nausea"?
hmm, I'd then need to convert what comes after into a sentence. I have removed the "from this species", which shortens it a little Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This suggests these two populations could be treated as distinct subspecies or even species." The paper suggests "could", and not 'should'?
it was a preliminary analysis and more investigation was being done, hence the classification was speculative at this stage (which is why I used "could" rather than "should") Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:14, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fine. Thanks. (Just checking.)
  • "or just simply the green mamba" One of "just" and "simply" is redundant.
trimmed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:14, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Adult males average around 1.8 metres (5.9 ft) in total length" Imperial measurements are given in feet and inches, not "decimal feet". Try "ftin" in the template instead of "ft".
hah clever. I didn't know that one. done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of its fangs than in the case of other elapids" I have no real objections to this, but 'of its fangs than other elapids' seems simpler.
trimmed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would it be possible to include, either in line or as a footnote, what the numbers under "Scalation" represent?
rejigged section a bit Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:14, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This species is native to more coastal regions" I get what you are trying to say, but it seems to raise the question, more coastal than what? Is there another way to phrase this?
rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sudden switch from "the eastern green mamba" to "this species" and back jars a little. Is there a reason? Also consider 'it' or 'they' a little more often - after a full name introduction at the start of each paragraph. Or just skip - random example: "Individuals of this species usually reach adult coloration at ... " "of this species" can happily be deleted without losing any information or creating any possibility of confusion.
rejigged to get rid of a few - paused to see if some biger chunks of text need revisiting and will come back to this later Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Behaviour" is one large paragraph. Split?
duly split Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the researcher found that their activity range areas to be very low" Delete "that"; or replace "to be" with 'are'.
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Depending on whether" usually precedes two or more options. Possibly 'If'?
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Reproduction and lifespan" Another long paragraph.
yeah...but no clear spot to split it...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:22, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after which the female lays anywhere between" Delete "anywhere".
trimmed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the summer months of October and November" Surely they are spring months?
bah, a bit wordy. removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:02, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The eggs are usually laid in a hollow tree, among decaying vegetation" I am unclear if these are options, or if you mean among decaying vegetation which is located in a hollow tree.
it means leaf litter in the tree hollow. fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:46, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they are approximately 30 to 40 cm (12 to 16 in)[13] or around an average of 44 cm (17 in) in length" It is not normal to find an average outside the range!
I just realised a former editor had used the wrong size range and wrong source. fixed now. Also - the second number is from a captive breeding so clarified Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:46, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The eastern green mamba has a few natural predators" Suggest replacing "a few" with either 'few' or 'several'.
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hornbills and other snakes tend to prey on juvenile green mambas" I am not sure that "tend to" adds anything.
trimmed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Reproduction and lifespan" it states that egg laying occurs in October and November; in "Venom" it states "breeding season from September to February". I am confused.
Breeding season generally encompasses courtship, mating, the time when the females are incubating, and then caring for young. Hence the egg-laying occurs in the middle of this Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:20, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is "systemic envenomation"? As opposed to non-systematic envenomation.
it means when the victim becomes generally ill - i.e. has generalised symptoms of a systemic disturbance Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:43, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The snake tends to bite repeatedly and let go" I think that "and let go" is redundant.
trimmed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "is thought to be quite high" What does "quite" mean in this context.
have removed sentence as it doesn't really add anything Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:43, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Another prominent component are the dendrotoxins" Either 'Other prominent components are the dendrotoxins' or 'Another prominent component is the dendrotoxins"; probably the first.
they are thought of as a group, so I did this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:30, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A really nice article. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:55, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cas Liber. Just checking if you are ready for me to have a look at your responses, or are still working on them? I am easy either way. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:47, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
you may as well wait a day or two till I finish with the ones below too as there are some fiddly bits (I forget how annoying it is sometimes to get an article already developed and have to fix things....) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:18, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
okay @Gog the Mild: I think we're there now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:14, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Take 2
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I forget how annoying it is sometimes to get an article already developed and have to fix things.... Oh yes, I know that one. Because there are so many changes I have been rereading the whole article, and picking up a couple of issues I missed on my previous readings.

  • "German-British zoologist Albert Günther", "Belgian-British zoologist George Albert Boulenger", "South African herpetologist Vivian Fitzsimons", " British biologist Arthur Loveridge". Can I urge that these be prefaced with 'The' or 'the' as appropriate, to avoid false titles. Also, it is not usual to give middle names.
I added "the", though I must confess it doesn't sound any more natural to me. I have looked and I can't find what G.A.Boulenger was called at all ("George" or "Albert") so am reluctant to change until I can find something what says he is called for short Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:11, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK re Boulenger.
  • "He concluded the differences in build, scalation" → 'He concluded that the differences in build, scalation'.
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:57, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The eastern green mamba is, however, a fairly common species of snake throughout its range" Suggest "The eastern green mamba" → 'It'.
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:57, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "may pose a possible threat" I think that you need to lose either "may" or "possible".
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:57, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "B2ab (ii, iii, iv, v)" This could do with explaining, possibly via a footnote.
damn - the pdf isn't downloading for me. Will try later I just removed them as they mean its habitat is highly fragmented and disappearing, which is mentioned straight afterwards. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:17, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Optional: split paragraph here: "do not bite each other. Males locate females".
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "green mambas prey on any of the seven species of gerbil" Would "any" read better as 'all'?
trimmed to just "the" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The eastern green mamba is the most commonly encountered—though has the least toxic venom—of the three species of green mamba" The section within the dashes reads very oddly there. Possibly rephrase?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Another kunitz-type protein is calcicludine, which blocks high-voltage-activated calcium channels." For clarity perhaps add 'present' after "protein"?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 23:09, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That all looks fine. Happy to support, a great article. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:26, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:26, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aa77zz

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Lead

  • link Dendroaspis
"Dendroaspis" redirects to Mamba, which is linked two words previously, which is why I had only one link at mamba. I can link just the genus instead, or both (though that will then show up as a duplicate link..? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomy

  • "and points east." what does this mean?
checked ref - fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:02, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference 3: Smith, Andrew (1849). Illustrations of the zoology of South Africa, Reptilia. 4. London: Smith, Elder and Co. p. 70. This isn't a page number but plate 70: at=Plate 70 A link to BHL would be better than a google search: url=https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/51564275 I've fixed this myself
thx Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps better to rejig paragraphs of Taxonomy to put in chronological order
it is now I have removed the bit you suggested Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:04, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added a cite to Günther 1865
thx as well Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Pook and colleagues analysed the mitochondrial DNA of mamba species in a 2005 paper." This is only a conference abstract and as far as I can determine it wasn't subsequently published and the nucleotide sequences weren't deposited in GenBank (I searched here). I suggest you delete the two sentences unless you can find a better source. (The abstract is on p. 82 of the conference proceedings which are here)
the person who was investigating this subsequently has died sadly. Nothing around so I think the research is gathering mothballs somewhere sadly. Given that, I have removed it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:07, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "FitzSimons again split them into separate species" I suggest you include a cite to the article by FitzSimons. The reference is: FitzSimons, V. (1946). "Notes on some south African snakes, including a description of a new subspecies of Xenocalamus". Annals of the Transvaal Museum. 20: 379–393 [392–393]. (you can copy my markup) Scans of back issues of the journal are online here - but unfortunately Vol 20 is missing. I've emailed a scan.
thx - added. I expanded a bit on how he did it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:07, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
thx - added. I think it helps show the research as robust Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:37, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps include a mention of the similar sounding allopatric western green mamba - mitochondrial DNA was sampled by Ainsworth et al 2018 (see Fig 2)) - it is sister to Dendroaspis jamesoni Jameson's mamba.
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Description

  • Suggest reordering to specify the skin colour before the details of the fangs.
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:14, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 11 FitzSimons, Vivian F. M. (1970). The 2nd edition is specified - which I think was published in 1974. The ISBN is for the 1974 edition. Which is it?
fixed - removed 2nd ed tag and has 1970 isbn Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:05, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second half of the first paragraph of the description has two cites at the end: Ref. 10 WCH Clinical Toxinology website and Ref. 14 Carl H.; Zug, George R. (1996) Snakes in Question (see pp. 100-102). Neither source supports the detailed description. This is worrying.
Damn, that is a hangover from the GA reviewed version. I will read what I have and remove what I can't cite. On looking at it, some of it is pretty general Removed uncited and rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs)
  • "This species rarely exceeds lengths of 2.5 metres" - ref 13 Spawls and Branch 1995. The page range should be 46-47. (pp 49-51 is the Black mamba).
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:14, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Scalation

  • There is a "See also" but why aren't the technical terms linked to the wiki articles? eg Ventral, Dorsal, Subcaudal, Anal etc.
  • I'm surprised at the bold font as it tends to be used very sparingly on wikipedia - see MOS:BOLD
I have prosified it, allowing me to link and debold. Another editor formatted it like this - the other snake articles I have buffed have prose. Looking at it I think the prose works better, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:14, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Distribution and habitat

  • Ref 17 Branch, B. (1988) is a book - page numbers should be specified. The correct title appears to be: "Bill Branch's field guide to the snakes and other reptiles of Southern Africa". The ISBN links to a 1992 edition. I notice that there are various editions - the 3rd published in 1998 has the title "Field guide to snakes and other reptiles of southern Africa".
Damn I hate this (but agree is necessary) - used snippet view of 1994 edition to determine page...sigh...added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Behaviour

  • The first two sentence repeat some material from the start of the second paragraph of the Distribution and habitat section.
I have reduced repetition - removing bits from both segments Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:22, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 18 O'Shea, Mark (12 September 2005) Venomous Snakes of the World is a book - page numbers should be specified. This seems very general - why not use one of the other sources?
this was frustrating. I figured out how to join the library finally and read the book. Neither sentence was in the source but oter interesting material was and has been added. Page number added. Orphaned material alterd and has new refs Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:27, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reproduction and lifespan

  • "When the young emerge from the eggs, they are approximately 30 to 40 cm (12 to 16 in)[13]" this is cited to Spawls & Branch who have nothing on breeding or the size of the young. Marais 2004 has "hatchlings measure 30-45 cm"
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:12, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 26 Müller et al - perhaps better to use Continuing Medical Education rather than the abbreviation CME.
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:12, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Venon

  • "which are akin to kunitz-type protease inhibitors that interact with voltage-dependent potassium channels, stimulating acetylcholine and causing an excitatory effect" - this is ambiguous as protease inhibitors don't interact with channels and I don't like "akin to". Suggest: "which, although structurally homologous to kunitz-type protease inhibitors, block voltage-dependent potassium channels stimulating the release of acetylcholine and causing an excitatory effect." - or similar.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:12, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps more later. Aa77zz (talk) 13:15, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article is much improved.

  • The phrase "this species" is used to avoid repeating "eastern green mamba" but becomes rather repetitive. I've a culled a few but you may want to remove a few more.
I have removed a few more. I have used the term just to diversify so not to say "the eastern green mamba..." too many times, but realise the person that took this to GA used it alot..... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:24, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tried to find out something about him but seems nonnotable so removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I've reread the article and it seems fine. Taking on an article expanded by another editor can involve more work than one expects. Well done. - Aa77zz (talk) 22:20, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thx, yes please remind me of this if I decide to fix another article....I thought this looked in better shape superficially than black mamba but actually there were a similar amount of issues WRT sourcing problems etc. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:26, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

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  • Verification:
  • No spotschecks carried out
  • Ref 15: needs a page ref
  • Ref 16: should have a specific page ref - source document is 22 pages long
  • Ref 18: needs page refs
  • Ref 19: ditto
  • Ref 27: 20-page range – needs to be more specific
  • Ref 30: and again – 17-page range here. There are several other cases where the range is 10+ pages, a little too wide in my opinion.
I've been moving content so these refs have been muddled up, but will see what I can do I think I got them all. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Links: all links to sources checked and working
  • Formats:
  • Be consistent in inclusion or otherwise of publisher locations
added locations Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quality/reliability
  • Who publishes the Reptile Database?
the Reptarium association. added. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Otherwise, no issues. Sources appear appropriately scholarly, and fully meet the FA quality/reliability critera.

Brianboulton (talk) 16:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support

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This has been well picked over above, my only minor quibbles are whether envenomation and polyvalent could be replaced by simpler terms Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tricky - both have fairly specific meanings over and above more accessible terms. I changed on 'envenomation' to 'poisoning' in lead, the other is bluelinked. 'polyvalent'....'all-purpose' or 'multipurpose' sounds lame and something you'd buy from a hardware store. Will muse on this..thx 4 support Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:10, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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