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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flag of Germany

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 00:47, 26 March 2008.

Flag of Germany

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Self-nomination: I've been working on this article for the last few months, getting info from various sources and documents in an attempt to make this article as good as it can be. It has gone through GA review, Peer review and a number of copy-edits. Writing a featured article is new to me and so now, after going through all of these procedures, it is clear to me that the only way that I can figure out what else needs to be done to make it suitable for FA is to nominate it and see what the response is. Looking at other FA flag articles, I believe this article is ready for nomination.

Wherever possible, I have supplied English references. Many sources are German legal documents or periodicals and I could not find any English versions. Since the history of the flag is intricately tied with the history of the country, a lot of German history is included - so I have concentrated on references that relate specifically to the flag, to prevent duplication. If someone wants to know more about actual historical events, they can look at the relevant articles and follow the references there.

For some facts that I have unearthed, I have so far been unable to find "reliable sources" to back them up. For some of these, I have commented out some parts of the text until such sources become available - other passages can also be commented out in a similar manner if deemed appropriate. Some other facts have no hard documents behind them but are common knowledge in Germany - or at least appear to me to be so, after the time I have spent here.

So I am interested in any suggestions you may have. Thanks. 52 Pickup (deal) 10:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Restart, old nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Prior to the FAC restart, a copy-edit request was made at WP:LOCE on 13 March. 52 Pickup (deal) 06:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I've added a {{cn}} about the intent of the Allied Control Commission; we require a source denying the all-too-likely possibility that the four powers were simply marking their own failure to agree on the future of Germany, which technically continued until the peace treaty of 1990. Aside from that, support, as before. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for having another look at this. It is true that at the Allies had not yet agreed on what exactly would become of Germany upon formation of the ACC, so I cannot produce a source to deny this. But the flag was only for use by German shipping since international law requires international shipping to have some sort of flag: and since the ACC had not yet figured out what to do with Germany, that's why this ensign was only provisional, as stated. The intention to humiliate can be seen in the passage of the law that I've quoted in that no respect shall be shown towards this flag and it should not be dipped in salute to any other country. It has also been suggested that the colour choice of this provisional ensign was also part of this humiliation since it contains the national colours of the Allied powers: red-white-blue (UK, USA, France) or red (USSR). But I have been unable to confirm if this was deliberate. So I've reworded that section to make the statement about humiliation clearer so I then took the liberty of removing the cn-tag since the citation provided gives the reasoning. Does that answer your question? 52 Pickup (deal) 17:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Do you have a source for that deduction, from no respect shall be shown towards this flag and it should not be dipped in salute to any other country to humiliation? If not, it is Original Research, since not being dipped to the Union Jack in English waters is a great privilege, which most national flags do not possess. My OR would be that this simply means that it is not a national flag, and the Allies were not going to invent foreign relations for Germany before deciding on its domestic relations. Neither conjecture belongs in the article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • The idea that a foreign power determines what flag you use is also generally an affront to a nation's sovereignty but, since I cannot explicitly prove that, nor provide any more solid evidence at this point, I've removed the "humiliation" bit. 52 Pickup (deal) 16:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, yes, after May 1945, there was no sovereign German state. It may well be true and sourceable that C stands for Capitulation, and that humiliation was intended; but let's have sources, and be sure they are duly weighted. For now, the tag is dealt with, and I continue to support. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Question I'm a little concerned that the article has missed an entire section on 'flag protocol' or usage guidelines, at least in the headings. Is there any particular reason why the article is missing this heading, as well as the headings or subheadings 'symbolism' and 'manufacturing'? I ask this question because most other successful FA flag articles have used similar headings, and I find it quite effective. I am also concerned whether this article is missing significant details. Still, in what the article does have, it seems quite impressive, particularly the history section. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Interesting points. Information related to flag protocol is spread through other sections (e.g. "Variants" and "Flag Days"). Similarly, symbolism is described in the introduction and is a main part of the History section since that is effectively a history of its symbolism. I am unfamiliar with any specific manufacturing information. - 52 Pickup (deal) 16:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's an unusual, but interesting approach you've taken. I still would like you to take a look through the approaches taken on Flag of India, Flag of Australia among other Flag FAs (some more listed at the Heraldry and vexillology project page). While I appreciate the way in which you've gone through history in your approach, I do prefer the way in which the other articles deal with headings, as it seems to be a classic and effective approach in how they go in giving information to the reader - how the headings are named and ordered, the way in which they deal with the relevant areas of law of the flag's country, and so on. It is up to you of course whether you wish to keep the article in its current form, or to modify it accordingly. But it's something worth considering, I think. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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