Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/God of War III/archive4
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 02:17, 28 February 2015 (UTC) [1].[reply]
Contents
- Nominator(s): JDC808 ♫ 18:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about the 2010 PlayStation 3 video game God of War III, the best-selling game in this series and one of PlayStation's most popular game series. This is the article's fourth nomination here. The last nomination was about a year ago. After that FAC closed, I took a break from Wikipedia and only made some intermediate edits here and there. I've recently come back and had this article copy-edited by the GOCE, which was something that was said was needed in the previous FAC. I will respond promptly to any issues or concerns. JDC808 ♫ 18:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from hahnchen
editOppose- "first-person kills" deathcam is trivial and needn't be mentioned.
- Done
- "On December 8, Stig Asmussen..." - Really weird way to announce Barlog's departure. You begin with the Asmussen quote and the reader has no idea why you're doing that. Start off by making the point, "Barlog left the studio..." or something similar.
- Done
- Put the "interest in a cooperative mode" sentence with the other multiplayer mention.
- Done
- What's the difference between "early development" and "pre-release"? Why is the length of the game in one section, but the length of the script in the other?
- What do you not understand about the difference? They are straight forward. Early development is just that. Pre-release is the few months before it was released.
- That you moved the game length section from "early development" to "pre-release" suggests they are arbitrary. It's why I put the two questions together.
- What do you not understand about the difference? They are straight forward. Early development is just that. Pre-release is the few months before it was released.
- CGSociety link broken.
- See the archive link (this is why they are there).
- At the time of the review, webcitation was down.
- See the archive link (this is why they are there).
- I would move all the trailer talk commentary into release/marketing.
- Why?
- Releasing a trailer is not a development milestone, it's a marketing one. It'd also make the Sixaxis stuff sit together. Consider putting the controller stuff together anyway.
- Why?
- No need to quote Asmussen to say the trailer is in game. Just state it is in game and reference it.
- Done
- There's generally a lot of trivial dates in the article, "On October 28, 2009, it was announced that the Blu-ray version of the film District 9 would include a God of War III demo", "The Blu-ray version of District 9 was released on December 22". I think it very unlikely the reader cares about the press release at all.
- This review of the soundtrack may be worth a mention.
- Done
- You don't mention who actually performs the soundtrack.
- Done
- The soundtrack's label seems to be Sumthing Else. Looks like they have some licensing agreement with SCE.
- Done
- Why use a niche source like Gamestyle?
- What's wrong with Gamestyle?
- "is some next-level stuff" tells the reader absolutely nothing.
- That's what he says.
- Then its not worth quoting.
- That's what he says.
- One "particularly inappropriate" puzzle, zero context.
- He did not explicitly state which puzzle.
- Then its not worth quoting.
- He did not explicitly state which puzzle.
- Calling the game "less diverse" is incredibly broad and bland, and the link is broken.
- That's what he says. See the archive link.
- Then its not worth quoting.
- That's what he says. See the archive link.
- Consider moving the "most anticipated" awards to the marketing section.
- Why? It was an award.
- The awards section generally deals with the game's overall reception. Pre-release awards are essentially the reception of the marketing campaign.
- I can see what you're saying, but I don't feel that it's enough reason to move this one award.
- The awards section generally deals with the game's overall reception. Pre-release awards are essentially the reception of the marketing campaign.
- Why? It was an award.
- N4G is not a reliable source and I don't think a GameTrailers "Diamond Award" is an award at all.
- Removed N4G, which happened to include the Diamond Award. I didn't really see a problem with including the award itself, but doing a quick search, I couldn't find a replacement source for it anyways.
- Who are PS3 Attitude and why do we care?
- They're a gaming website that posts news regarding PlayStation games.
- Not all comments are oppose worthy, but taken together, they are. - hahnchen 18:19, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Some replies above. - hahnchen 00:22, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- A couple more things done. Going to work on the trailer stuff and the quotes that you said aren't "worth quoting" tomorrow. --JDC808 ♫ 01:14, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- All points addressed now. --JDC808 ♫ 17:12, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Some replies above. - hahnchen 00:22, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Still unconvinced about the reliability/notability of PS3 Attitude.
- Removed.
- The "No CGI" section feels clumsy, there looks to be redundancy, you're using a lot of lines to say something simple.
I'll work on it.- Trimmed back.
- These articles, http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/the-making-of-god-of-war-iii & http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-sony-santa-monica-mastered-the-ps3 are not used. Was there nothing in those articles, the "Making Of" or "Art of" videos that you felt were relevant to the development section? Camera work, animation and anti-aliasing seem interesting, I've not watched the videos.
- I had never read those articles before. --JDC808 ♫ 05:09, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I've read through the articles. I've added a new paragraph to the development section (and redid the subsections, although I don't know if "Technical" is a good title). --JDC808 ♫ 18:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- hahnchen 11:35, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Been too busy, so I've struck the oppose, but haven't revisited the article. Did you watch the videos too? This soundtrack review states that there is an interview with the composers as part of the game's bonus content. (I'm not sure about OSV's reliability) The soundtrack section is pretty much all reception, and offers no composer insight. These articles could help too. [2][3] - hahnchen 23:45, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- These interviews, particularly about the engine, could be worth a mention.[4][5] - hahnchen 01:47, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I'll read over those and see what I can do. --JDC808 ♫ 06:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Read over and incorporated some. --JDC808 ♫ 18:23, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I had never read those articles before. --JDC808 ♫ 05:09, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- "first-person kills" deathcam is trivial and needn't be mentioned.
Comments from ProtoDrake
editA few points I must raise.
- The lead. Why must IGN be cited in particular, as the points from the review are generally shared across the reviews. Uncited generalities are allowed in the lead as long as the claims are backed up in the article proper.
- Because it was IGN who stated those specific points.
- The opening paragraph of the gameplay section look a little clunky to my eye.
- The first piece that caught my attention: "The gameplay of God of War III is similar to that of its predecessors. It is a third-person, single-player video game from a fixed-camera perspective.[4] The player controls Kratos in combo-based combat, platforming, and puzzle games, battling foes drawn primarily from Greek mythology (including centaurs, harpies, chimeras, cyclopes, satyrs, minotaurs, sirens, cerberuses, and Gorgons). Other enemies were created specifically for the game." Possibly you could rewrite it as "God of War III is a third-person, single-player action-adventure video game. As with previous God of War games, the player controls Kratos from a fixed-camera perspective in combo-based combat, platforming, and puzzle games. The enemies are a mixture of creatures drawn from Greek mythology and monsters created for the game.
- Done.
- The next is the sentence about puzzles: "Although some puzzles are simple, others—such as finding several items in different areas of the game to unlock a door—are more complex.[5]" Perhaps you could specify how many puzzles are simple, and refine the second part into something like "more complex puzzles involving retrieving items from multiple areas."
- Without playing the game again, I don't have a count of how many puzzles are simple, and I don't believe any sources do either (the ones I've come across do not). The complex puzzle part is trimmed back as per suggestion.
- The most I can say about the combat system is that... it needs some condensing here and there. I'll leave the exact details up to you.
- I don't see where it needs condensing. Unless some sentences can become more concise without loosing information (not sure how more concise it could be), condensing it any further is going to lose information and may make things unclear.
- The first piece that caught my attention: "The gameplay of God of War III is similar to that of its predecessors. It is a third-person, single-player video game from a fixed-camera perspective.[4] The player controls Kratos in combo-based combat, platforming, and puzzle games, battling foes drawn primarily from Greek mythology (including centaurs, harpies, chimeras, cyclopes, satyrs, minotaurs, sirens, cerberuses, and Gorgons). Other enemies were created specifically for the game." Possibly you could rewrite it as "God of War III is a third-person, single-player action-adventure video game. As with previous God of War games, the player controls Kratos from a fixed-camera perspective in combo-based combat, platforming, and puzzle games. The enemies are a mixture of creatures drawn from Greek mythology and monsters created for the game.
- George Bell (voice actor) should not be linked if there isn't an article for him.
- Don't see why it's a problem (as an article could be made), but okay.
That's what stood out right now. I'll probably be back for more. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @JDC808:, I can't actually see anything else very wrong. I found some dead links and fixed them for you. In general, I Support this article's promotion. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you and thank you for the broken link fixes. --JDC808 ♫ 15:24, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Tezero
edit- I think I'm going to make this standard in my FA/GA reviews, as I've been doing it lately: I've done a brief copyedit before anything else. Feel free to revert or adjust as needed.
- Looks fine, thanks.
- "others are more complex and require the player to retrieve items from multiple areas" - that doesn't sound complex; the Lego games do that. Could you provide an example if you think it's complex?
- It was explained a little more but another reviewer suggested to trimming it down to that.
Will work on. - Might need a copy-edit, but I've expanded it. --JDC808 ♫ 17:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- It was explained a little more but another reviewer suggested to trimming it down to that.
- You can choose which, if any, to remove or restructure around, but I see a noticeable overuse of parentheses; these should be rare in encyclopedic writing to avoid losing focus or including esoteric details.
- Okay, I'll look through and see what I can do.
- Parenthetical bits taken care of, I think. After going through it, a lot of the parenthesis were done by the last GOCE copy-editor. --JDC808 ♫ 16:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I remember seeing articles about the sex minigame back when this game was released, but doesn't it only occur once, not even lasting very long? If so, why is that worthy of a mention in Gameplay?
- It uses the same mechanics as the quick-time event feature mentioned before it, and it became a standard feature for the series up until the last game.
Done up through Gameplay. Tezero (talk) 02:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- "on the fictional Mount Olympus" - I don't think it's appropriate to call religious beliefs "fictional" - or is this a fictional version of it?
- It would be a fictional version, or rather an alternate version.
- "and the Underworld and Tartarus" - why are these grouped together and not just ", the Underworld, and Tartarus"?
- I had taken away the parenthesis around "such as the Forum and Hera's Gardens" and if I would have made it like how you're saying (which it was when the parenthesis were there), it would sound like the Underworld and Tartarus are also part of the Palace of the Gods.
- "the remains of his wife" - per WP:EASTER, piped links are discouraged; could you rephrase this as something like "the remains of his wife, who was killed in ..."?
- Okay.
- "who was banished when Kratos retrieved Pandora's Box from Pandora's Temple, still chained to his back" - confusing; what was chained to whose back?
- The temple. Not sure if clearer now.
- The constant actor names are kind of distracting; have you considered creating a "cast" section? Normally these are frowned upon, but I think it'd be accepted if they're all notable actors and their acting is covered elsewhere in the body, which it is.
- A good while ago (like 3 years if not more), we had a cast section, which like you said is frowned upon with video game articles (which I personally find silly). This was basically what we agreed upon (by we, I mean a couple of others who were editing the article back then). --JDC808 ♫ 23:17, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- "his death floods the world" - ???
- Clarified, I think.
- Might want to mention earlier that Hera controls all plant life a la Poison Ivy from Batman; it kinda comes out of nowhere that killing her ends all of it.
- Done.
- How unknown is Kratos' fate if he was "near death" when he offed himself? I'm genuinely asking - I haven't played any of the God of War games since I was mostly a Nintendo kid.
- Right before the end of the credits, it's believed he died, but right after the credits, there's a trail of blood leading off to the edge of the cliff. He might have jumped off or he might have climbed down and is surviving somewhere. That's what's unknown.
Done up through Plot. Tezero (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- "In 2007, God of War creator and game director David Jaffe explained his original idea for the series, saying that it would be "hell on earth" as the gods and Titans battle each other for domination; "God of War explains, or ultimately will explain, why there are no more Greek myths"." - ambiguous; by "original" do you mean this was what he intended at first, or that the idea had never been tried before? This idea seems to be contrasted with what actually came into play in GoW3; was this his current idea in 2007, or only before then? I'd suggest reworking a lot of the first half of the first paragraph of Development for clarity.
- It's what he originally intended. 2007 was when this particular interview happened. Done some reworking.
- "individual tasks could take a year" - what kind of original tasks? A year would be quite a short time to develop an entire triple-A game, pay off one's mortgage, get a medical degree, or learn Mandarin fluently, while it would be exceedingly long to create a single character model or program the basic controls.
- He didn't explicitly state what tasks. He only gave an example, which I have put in.
- "which is the amount developer Naughty Dog used for the in-game model of Nathan Drake in Uncharted 2: Among Thieves" - relevance?
- Comparison. At the time, God of War III and Uncharted 2 had some of the best (if not the best) graphics for consoles.
- "Overall game length was estimated" - by whom? Normally I'm cool with the passive voice, but here the agent would be helpful since another total is given immediately after.
- That was Asmussen.
- "all footage from the trailer "is pulled straight from the game" and all footage is gameplay" - seems redundant; you could merely snip the quote
- Done.
- "Susan Blakeslee, who voiced two characters in God of War, voiced Gaia; previously voiced by narrator Linda Hunt, she only provided an introductory narration for God of War III" - ???
- Better?
- "Each composer provided a different aesthetic to the score" - examples would be nice
- Added a couple of examples.
- Some of the quotes in Reception appear unneeded and like they could easily be paraphrased, e.g. "so easy to switch between them on the fly", "couldn't be simpler", "its most outstanding visual achievement."
- I sometimes have a hard time paraphrasing some things because I don't know how I would say it any differently. Tried to at least get the ones you mentioned here.
- Not sure GiantBomb is a reliable source for release dates; doesn't it accept user-inputted data?
- According to WP:VG/RS, it's "Reliable for reviews and news content submitted in the site's blog by the site's own editorial staff. Do not use the user contributed content from the site's article/database section for citations." I don't know if the contents of that particular citation is user submitted.
- Is Sumthing.com a reliable source?
- I can't say for sure. It's there to show that they also a label for the soundtrack.
- Per reference convention established on this article, Gamestyle should be used as work, not publisher; it looks like there might not be a true publisher.
- Done.
That should be about it. Tezero (talk) 22:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support, then. I don't think the GiantBomb issue is worthy of concern; if it's determined unreliable at some point, release dates for games from the early/mid-'00s or later are easy to find via press releases, ratings websites, etc. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you. --JDC808 ♫ 19:33, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Mike Christie
editResolved issues
|
---|
I'm not a gamer so please excuse any mistakes; and if I screw up anything in a copyedit feel free to revert.
OK, I'm done with a first pass. After we deal with these I will do another copyedit pass. Haven't yet looked at the sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:41, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply] |
Everything from my first pass through has been resolved; I'll do another read through and if I find anything else I'll post it here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please fix my copyedits as needed. More points:
- "In creating Kratos, art director Ken Feldman said "We [used] as many [polygons] as it [took]." The raw polygon count is considerably lower than 35,000, which is the amount developer Naughty Dog used for the in-game model of Nathan Drake in Uncharted 2: Among Thieves. Kratos' PlayStation 2 (PS2) character model was about 5,000 polygons; his PS3 model is about 20,000." Looking at some of the sources, it appears Nathan Drake is mentioned because he has quite a few more polygons than Kratos, but there seem to be other models with more polygons out there. I know Feldman mentions Drake, but it's a distraction here. How about rewording these sentences like so: "The character model for Kratos in the Playstation 2 (PS2) games used about 5,000 polygons; the PS3 model was about 20,000 – a high number, but less than the number used by models in other games. Ken Feldman, the art director, commented that the polygon count was not the only factor, and cited the increased texture detail as one of the reasons for Kratos's realistic appearance", using the same source you're using.
- Okay, implemented your suggestion. A big reason Drake was referenced in that article was because Uncharted 2 and this game at that time had the best graphics for video game consoles. Games since then (especially with the new generation) have higher counts, but at that time (and I may be wrong) I think Drake was the only character model with a higher count (at least for video game consoles, not sure about PC). --JDC808 ♫ 03:13, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- That explains why Feldman mentioned it, but without a source to give those details it's not really possible to explain that to a reader, and even with a source I think it's a bit of a distraction. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:25, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, implemented your suggestion. A big reason Drake was referenced in that article was because Uncharted 2 and this game at that time had the best graphics for video game consoles. Games since then (especially with the new generation) have higher counts, but at that time (and I may be wrong) I think Drake was the only character model with a higher count (at least for video game consoles, not sure about PC). --JDC808 ♫ 03:13, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"The best-selling game on any console, its opening-month sales were 32 percent higher than those of God of War II": what does "best-selling" refer to here -- best-selling ever in total sales Best opening-month sales? And has the record been exceeded since then, or does it still stand?- It was the best-selling game of March 2010. --JDC808 ♫ 03:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- "A week before God of War III's release, the developers released "Path to Olympus" on the God of War website, with Kratos' backstory": is "Path to Olympus" a game? Or a film sequence?
- It's been awhile, but I think it was basically like a comic, and I think there might have been a couple of videos. It's not on their website anymore, unfortunately. The only thing there now is a timeline of events throughout the series. --JDC808 ♫ 03:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. I'm going to support without addressing this, but you might make this 'the developers released Kratos' backstory on the God of War website, under the title "Path of Olympus"', which I think makes it a little clearer. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:25, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Implemented your suggestion. --JDC808 ♫ 15:56, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- It's been awhile, but I think it was basically like a comic, and I think there might have been a couple of videos. It's not on their website anymore, unfortunately. The only thing there now is a timeline of events throughout the series. --JDC808 ♫ 03:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"He said the melodic and harmonic development has grown since the first game": I think you should cut this -- it's somewhat self-praise, and since it's not a third party comment I don't think it adds much.- Okay. --JDC808 ♫ 03:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I want to go through the reception section one more time; I think it's a little choppy in places. Other than that, this is now in pretty good shape and I expect to be able to support once these points are cleared up. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:11, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I haven't reviewed the sources in detail, nor have I checked for close paraphrasing, but the sources I looked at in passing as part of the review look fine to me. There's a good deal of detail here, but it's handled neutrally and I think it stays on the right side of trivia. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:25, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you very much. It's good to get a non-gamer perspective. Just to note, FAC #2 and #3 had source reviews, though some new sources have been added since then. --JDC808 ♫ 15:56, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Image check - all OK (GermanJoe)
edit- Fair-use rationales in general are OK for both images, but File:GoW3_Kratos_vs_Hercules_QTE.jpg fails WP:NFC with over twice the recommended size. If higher resolutions are needed in exceptional cases, "editors should ensure that the image rationale fully explains the need for such a level of detail". See the guideline at WP:IMAGERES for more information. GermanJoe (talk) 05:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Last time these images were checked during an FAC, there were only minor issues that were easily resolved. Now one's being opposed? Regardless, that one's size has been reduced. --JDC808 ♫ 17:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't know why, but maybe the reviewer overlooked the image size issue, sometimes reviews in good faith simply miss a problem. Please check the complete linked guidelines regarding non-free image quality (not only quantity). Sorry for bringing this point up quite late in the review, but I just noticed it today.
- Thanks for resizing the image - all OK now (changed in header above). On a sidenote: the image size in pixels was too high, but you could still use a slightly larger image if you want (the quality limit is based on pixel count up to circa 100,000 pixels for the whole image. The current version has 57,600 pixels). WP:IMAGERES has details, how to calculate that. GermanJoe (talk) 18:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Last time these images were checked during an FAC, there were only minor issues that were easily resolved. Now one's being opposed? Regardless, that one's size has been reduced. --JDC808 ♫ 17:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 02:17, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.