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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Haane Manahi/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 14 January 2021 [1].

Haane Manahi

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Nominator(s): Zawed (talk) 08:34, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Haane Manahi was from New Zealand, a Māori soldier of the Second World War and a recipient of the Distinguished Conduct Medal. He had been recommended for the Victoria Cross for an action at Takrouna in Tunisia in 1943 but this was downgraded to the DCM, which has since been the source of some angst. The article was a GA as long ago as 2012, but was revised and expanded in anticipation of the just completed A-Class nomination at the MilHist project. As part of the A-Class assessment process, source and image reviews were done by Gog the Mild and buidhe respectively. Thanks in advance to all those who participate in the review. Zawed (talk) 08:34, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass

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Per ACR. (t · c) buidhe 13:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Spotchecks not done

  • FN1 should include publication date
  • The publication date field doesn't appear to be used by the DNZB template that I used for this. I have switched to the generic webcite format in order to populate the date field that way.

Support by Nick-D

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It's great to see this article at FAC. I'd like to offer the following comments:

  • Give the date of his action at Takrouna in the lead
  • "His training commenced at Trentham Military Camp in January 1940[5] but shortly before he left his home, Manahi married Rangiawatea Te Kiri, the mother of his son, born in 1936." - this is bit clunky. I'd suggest separating it into two sentences (one on the marriage and another on his training)
  • "In May 1940, after Manahi had a brief period of leave,[7] the battalion embarked for the Middle East " - presumably this leave was the routine pre-embarkation leave soldiers were typically granted?
  • Can anything be said about Manahi's time in the UK?
  • "he participated in a swimming competition for the entire 2nd New Zealand Division" - bit clunky
  • "Bennett ordered Manahi" - Bennett hasn't been introduced, so this is unclear.
  • Has there been any discussion by constitutional experts or similar about the communications between the NZ Government and the Queen regarding this issue? It's interesting that the NZ Government seems to have always stopped just shy of formally advising the Queen to award the medal (which as a constitutional monarch she may have been obliged to act on especially regarding the separate VC for New Zealand), but this led to a situation which seems to have been unsatisfactory to everyone.
  • Moon says the NZ Government felt an "official recommendation ...might not elicited the desired response." I suspect that for Buckingham Palace there would be an element of not wanting to set a precedent and open a can of worms for other belated claimes. The King's decision of 1949 probably makes it easier for authorities to take a hardline on this. Zawed (talk) 02:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • While the Australian and NZ Victoria Crosses are now separate, has the recent posthumous award of a VC for Australia to Teddy Sheean led to proposals that Manahi be awarded a VC for New Zealand? This 2013 Australian report noted Manahi in the context of proposals that the VC for Australia be granted retrospectively. Nick-D (talk) 23:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not that I'm aware of. I did do some Googling to see if there was any recent news regarding this and didn't come across anything. I suspect the events of 2006/2007 put an end to it. Zawed (talk) 02:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK. The decision to award Sheean the VC for Australia was slightly controversial, as an earlier and arguably much better qualified panel had recommended that he not receive the medal. Nick-D (talk) 05:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nick-D, thanks for taking a look at this, I have responded to all your points now. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 02:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Those changes look good, and I'm pleased to support this nomination. Nick-D (talk) 05:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by CPA-5

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  • of the Te Arawa and Ngāti Raukawa iwi (tribe) Isn't iwis or anyother plural form of iwi?
  • the Te Arawa and Ngāti Raukawa iwi (tribe) on his father's side Same as above.
  • a village near the town of Rotorua in the North Island of New Zealand --> "a village near the town of Rotorua in North Island of New Zealand"? Since North Island sounds odd with an article.
  • Link "secondary school" since some countries don't have that system and call it high school (btw here in Belgium we use also secondary school).
  • and building industries alongside his uncle, Matiu What's his surname if he is from his dad's side then maybe add here "from his father's side" or something similar.
  • Manahi married Rangiawatea Te Kiri, the mother of his son, born in 1936 "Te Kiri" isn't her néé right?
  • Have added.
  • It was hoped that Elizabeth II would reconsider --> "It was hoped that Queen Elizabeth II would reconsider"
  • This involved near constant fighting across Libya --> "This involved near-constant fighting across Libya"
  • the division was forced to breakout from Minqar Qaim on 26 June --> "the division was forced to break out from Minqar Qaim on 26 June"
  • C Company as well as ammunition and stretcher bearers --> "C Company as well as ammunition and stretcher-bearers"?
  • On returning to Rotorua, Manahi entered a wood working course --> "On returning to Rotorua, Manahi entered a woodworking course"?
  • Rotorua and returned to the work force --> "Rotorua and returned to the workforce"?
  • traffic inspector which involved traveling around American "traveling" here.
  • in swimming coaching as well golf and fishing --> "in swimming coaching as well as golf and fishing"
  • way home to Maketu from the RSA club rooms --> "way home to Maketu from the RSA clubrooms"?
  • through former Governor-Generals of New Zealand Isn't it "Governors-General" as plural form?
  • The links of the Maori words like iwi, tangi, marae and patu should have a language template.
  • I'm not familiar enough with the Maori language to pull that off for the words that don't have one already in use. I was able to find the iwi template but when adding it in, it looked quite clumsy with the English-language translation so I'm not a fan of it. Zawed (talk) 09:35, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the infobox: "Western Desert Campaign" --> "Western Desert campaign"

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 21:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

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Ping me when you've addressed CPA-5's comments, and I'll take a look. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:06, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just working on a very complex GAN at present, but this will be first cab off the rank once I'm done there. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:43, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okazay, sorry about the delay. My comments:

Lead and infobox
  • the first sentence doesn't establish his notability, which I understand to be based on the issue of whether he should have been awarded the VC rather than the DCM. Suggest something like:

    Haane Te Rauawa Manahi, DCM (28 September 1913 – 29 March 1986) was a New Zealand Māori soldier during the Second World War whose gallantry during the Tunisian campaign resulted in a recommendation that he be awarded the Victoria Cross (VC); the subsequent award of the Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) disappointed his fellow soldiers who, after his death, advocated greater recognition of his valour. This eventually resulted in the presentation of several items to his family by Queen Elizabeth II in 2007.

  • the tribal, place and year of birth information really doesn't belong in the lead
  • having dropped Maori Battalion from the first sentence, link it when he joins it
  • "After recovering from his wounds he returned to the Māori Battalionhis unit"
  • "which he was nominatedrecommended for a VC"
  • "Despite the support of four generals, his VC nomination was downgraded to an award of a DCM, possibly by the British Chief of the General Staff, General Alan Brooke."
  • explain why he didn't return to duty
  • describe what the special award included
  • in the infobox, not sure what "public works" he is known for? This could be dropped.

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:36, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have actioned most of the above and also made a few changes to the following paragraphs of the lead to avoid undue repetition. The place of birth was left in and I felt adding a description of the special award would add undue detail to the lead. Zawed (talk) 19:35, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Body
  • link Fascist Italy (1922–1943) for Italy
  • suggest linking the Battle of Greece#Olympus and Servia passes section for "Olympus Pass"
  • link Platanias
  • link Maleme Airfield
  • gliders don't discharge paratroopers overhead, suggest reworking the sentence
  • El Alamein is duplinked
  • comma after "the commander of the Eighth Army"
  • is there a citation for the DCM available? Given the controversy, this would be a justified addition.
  • Done. The citation itself doesn't seem to have been published in the LG although other sources imply that it was. I found an online version of the citation at the Auckland Museum website. Zawed (talk) 03:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • is there any information on why the Maori were exempted but others were not?
  • "in August 1946."
  • any details on what caused the car crash?
  • I've added some details but there is nothing to explicitly explain the crash itself. It is not outright stated in the main source (Moon), but as he was coming home from the RSA, I wouldn't be surprised if alcohol was a factor. Zawed (talk) 03:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was attended by former members of the Māori Battalion" as I assume the battalion was disbanded after the war?
  • "not interested in changing the situationpursuing reconsideration of the award."
  • deitalicise "Manahi VC Committee" per MOS:ITALICS

That's all I can find. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:28, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks PM, I have responded above, Cheers, Zawed (talk) 03:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good grief, no wonder his mates were a bit miffed about the VC being turned down. The DCM citation is a great add. One last thing, suggest "he received a bullet to the chest"→"he received a gunshot wound to the chest". That's it, the rest looks excellent. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

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This would also benefit from a comprehensibility lookover from a reviewer who is not an aficionado of military history. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:48, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can do that, I wanted to review it anyway, but stopped because it already had three ongoing reviews. FunkMonk (talk) 18:16, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gog the Mild, this has four supports (including a couple outside of Milhist) plus source/image reviews. CPA-5 provided some comments, which I have actioned or responded to but hasn't indicated support, despite repeated pings. Will this be barrier to passing? Zawed (talk) 22:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
CPA-5 is on a Wikibreak, but as you have addressed all of the comments I am counting it as about three-quarters of a MilHist support. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:11, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Funk

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  • At first glance, there is a bunch of WP:duplinks that can be highlighted with this script:[3] FunkMonk (talk) 20:18, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Haane Manahi, June 1943" I think this caption could mention where it is taken (Maadi, Egypt), at least that's more interesting than restating his full name.
  • Thanks for taking a look. The dupe links have been dealt with bar one: the link to the DCM is used twice, once as a postnominal and once on first full mention in the lead. I believe that is acceptable in the circumstances. Caption amended as suggested. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 19:38, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Descended from the Te Arawa and Ngāti Raukawa iwi (tribes) on his father's side, his mother was also of the Te Arawa iwi i" You could mention and link Maori people here. Otherwise you only mention the group in the intro.
  • "around Olympus Pass, and in the days following the beginning of the invasion on 6 April" Now the battle is linked at Olympus Pass, but wouldn't it be better to link it at the word "invasion", and then leave the place to link to its article?
  • That link was in response to a suggestion earlier in this review. You have made me reconsider the links though, because invasion should be linked to the Battle of Greece proper, something I had overlooked. I have moved the original link to "initial contact" since I think that may be a better fit. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was wounded in the chest" By what?
  • " about 150 kilometres (93 mi) west of El Alamein." State this is in Egypt.
  • You link some countries, but not others. Generally, it appears countries don't need to be linked.
  • "and impacted an oncoming vehicle." What happened to the other driver?
  • "Survived by two sons, he was buried at Muruika cemetery." Shouldn't you say earlier that his other child was a son? You only say "and fathered another child with one of them", which seems pretty detached.
  • "to Manahi's sons, Rauawa and Geoffrey" Not sure what the conventions are, but seems odd his sons are only named down here. Shouldn't their names be mentioned when they are each first mentioned?
  • With respect, I disagree. It seems an unnecessary detail to add at the time they are first introduced. In my view, whether a child is named on first mention depends on the context. If one died as a baby/infant/child, then contextually it could be useful to name them on first mention particularly if it then leads on to mention of their death. In the present case, they are named there because that is when they become contextually important for the reader. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • To me it seems a bit strange that the intro begins with a discussion of the awards, and only after that his actions. Wouldn't it be more logical to have his actions come first, then the awards? That might also make the related sentence that comes later "Despite the support of four generals, his VC nomination was downgraded to an award of a DCM, possibly by the British Chief of the General Staff, General Alan Brooke. " less repetitive.
  • "These efforts were ultimately unsuccessful due to the period of time that had elapsed since the end of the Second World War." This also seems an odd note to end the intro on, which would be resolved if you put the first paraapgh last.
  • Dealing with these two bullet points collectively, the lead has been revised a bit as a result of this FA review (see PM's comments above). The first paragraph is to establish notability while the second and third provide more of a summary without excessively repeating the first paragraph. I am still awaiting PM's feedback on my changes; Peacemaker67, a courtesy ping here. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I'll wait and see what the outcome is, looks good so far. FunkMonk (talk) 01:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe a compromise could be to mention the medal he did get in the first paragraph (establishing his notability), and then describe the controversy about the other medal in the last paragraph? That could eliminate the odd jump and repetition in the narrative currently there. FunkMonk (talk) 06:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that approach is that getting a DCM isn't notable. It is the downgrading of the VC to DCM and the process of revisiting it that makes him notable. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This provoked the committee to collect more evidence in support of its case, including rebuttal evidence regarding the treatment of the Italians." Any details on this evidence?
  • That citation for the DCM is a wall of text that is difficult to parse and read, is the original also like that, or broken into paragraphs?
  • There is a photograph in Moon (2010) of an earlier version of the original citation. Apart from an extra sentence at the end it is identical to what is in the wall of text. I have broken the text into paragraphs to match those in the citation. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Le Panini

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This has been up for quite a while. That's always quote annoying. I'm here from Wikiproject video games, so bear with if there's some MoS I'm unaware of.

Lead
  • This first sentence is pretty long, in my opinion. I would rather replace the semicolon and make these two sentences.
  • "After recovering from his wounds he returned to his unit and fought through the Western Desert and Tunisian campaigns during which he was recommended for a VC for his actions at Takrouna over the period 19–21 April 1943." This sentence seems to be a run-on too, maybe -> After recovering from his wounds, he returned to his unit and fought through the Western Desert and Tunisian campaigns, during which he was recommended for a VC for his actions at Takrouna over the period 19–21 April 1943."
  • These first two paragraphs repeat content. These two pieces state the exact same thing, as if the first paragraph is a summary for a summary.

"...whose gallantry during the Tunisian campaign resulted in a recommendation that he be awarded the Victoria Cross (VC); the subsequent award of the Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) disappointed his fellow soldiers who, after his death, advocated greater recognition of his valour."

"...during which he was recommended for a VC for his actions at Takrouna over the period 19–21 April 1943. Despite the support of four generals, his VC nomination was downgraded to an award of a DCM, possibly by the British Chief of the General Staff, General Alan Brooke."

Does this need to be mentioned twice? This paragraph could cover the wars in more detail.

  • The first para establishes notability, then the next two are a brief summary. The lead has been extensively reworked as a result of the feedback of previous reviewers so I am reluctant to make further structural changes changes (although the two minor changes you suggest above have been implemented). Zawed (talk) 09:53, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After his discharge from the New Zealand Military Forces in 1946, he was employed as a traffic inspector. He was killed in a car crash in 1986." This short "then he died" sentence comes out of nowhere. Maybe a semicolon? "After his discharge from the New Zealand Military Forces in 1946, he was employed as a traffic inspector; he was killed in a car crash in 1986."
Early Life
  • This section starts off with his full name. Is this really necessary?
Second World War
  • "Shortly before he departed his home for Trentham, Manahi married Rangiawatea née Te Kiri, the mother of his son, born in 1936." This reads odd to me. Of course if he has a child she be "the mother of his son". I would replace this part with something such as "later having a son, born in 1936."
  • Sorry, I disagree with this. I don't think that it is a given that she would be the mother of the son, the son could have been to another woman. The phrasing is also intended to help readers appreciate that the son was born out of wedlock. Zawed (talk) 09:53, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Takrouna
  • "The battalion's commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles Bennett, ordered Manahi, who had just received a promotion to lance sergeant, to take a party of 12 men to make a feint attack..." This combines a lot of pieces together and becomes pretty lengthy. I'd use an em dash somewhere, maybe -> "The battalion's commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles Bennett, ordered Manahi—who had just received a promotion to lance sergeant—to take a party of 12 men to make a feint attack..."
  • I'm not a fan of em dashes, hence the use of commas. I appreciate your point though, there is a lot going on in that sentence. I have moved the mention of the promotion to the following sentence, how does it read now? Zawed (talk) 09:53, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But I read through this whole article, and found no glaring problems. Good work! Le Panini [🥪] 11:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Le Panini, thanks for the feedback, I have responded to your points above. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:53, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Due to fair counterpoints to which I agree, and changes above, I support this nomination. There wasn't much to say about this, really. It's really well written! Le Panini [🥪] 11:00, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support, much appreciated! Zawed (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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