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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Honan Chapel/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 7 December 2020 [1].

Honan Chapel

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Nominator(s): Ceoil (talk) 22:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is the columniation of a few years work that hopefully conveys the Honan Chapel and its art collection's reputation as a Celtic-Romanesque jewel. The page has been peer reviewed, and was the subject of independent heavy duty reviews by Venicescapes, KJP1, and EEng. My interest is primarily in the Harry Clarke stained glass windows and Imogen Stuart carvings; I am totally a fan, but as ever with Irish and especially Cork related articles, Guliolopez, who wrote the early drafts of the article and established most of the sources, has been watching content and tone, with years, and hopefully neutrality is maintained. Ceoil (talk) 22:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just to say that my religious beliefs make it impossible for me to participate in the FA process, but I wish you all the luck in the world. EEng 23:31, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sissy. :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:49, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SG comments (Support)

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  • Harv ref warning: Ryan, Fergus (2019). "Iconography of the Honan Chapel: symphony of a single idea?". Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy: Archaeology, Culture, History, Literature. 119C. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFRyan2019.
  • Somewhere in the citations there is a missing periodical, because the error category, CS1 errors: missing periodical, is populated. I wish I knew how to find these for you.
  • " It was positioned on a five-legged table, each leg of which was embedded with an Irish crucifix[44]" ... doesn't a crucifix contain the figure of Christ? Should this mention just a cross? Did it have a figure of Christ?
  • Should three-ringed by hyphenated? " ... brightly coloured altar decorated with three ringed crosses"
  • Fifteen pages is a broad range to have to search through: Teehan & Heckett 2005, pp. 210–225.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:24, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have it next to me, now trimmed to pp. 210–212 Ceoil (talk) 23:56, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing
  • The external link Youtube of Notre Dame at the Honan Chapel is not warming my heart :) The quality is not great and it is not increasing my appreciation for the Chapel.
  • Did something change? MOS:SANDWICH is back in the "Brendan, Declan and Gobnait" section. Can we just not have a gallery of the windows, to put them all in one place? Lots of images of stained glass windows, but nothing of the chancel and altar ... some industrious Irishman should go take one :)
  • Looking good ... are you able to find another location for either the Detail of Clarke's original modello, 1914 image or the Detail of the Gobnait window, 1916 image, which are causing the sandwich? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:39, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Its a long and troubled saga. Went over there (only 6 miles) a few times in the late summer for more pics, but they were always closed down to the public...cathcing up on the wedding backlog. We are again in lock down with last few weeks, so may be december before get there again. Longer term plan is to have a gallery for each window section, with at least one pic per Clarke window. The current format is a holding position. Meanwhile, yes will do do something re Gobnait; imo the modello is better than the final image so would hate to loose...hold on. Ceoil (talk) 21:59, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... who provided large donations towards the construction of the chapel --> made significant donations ... generously donated ... ?
  • Don't start paragraph with "she", name her? She wears royal blue clothes and her facial features are based on ...
  • Can we combine this somewhere or say something more about it ... don't most altars have candlesticks? The altar also has candlesticks.
  • Article says ... dedicated to Saint Finbarr, patron saint of Cork and of the Diocese of Cork ... but never explicitly tells us the Chapel is part of the Diocese of Cork.
    Now added to the infobox, with link to the diocese's website. Ceoil (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am ready to support, but want to see the sandwiching resolved. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:56, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing any sandwiching per WP:SANDWICH. There are images on opposite sides of the article but not starting at the same level which is what SANDWICH is aiming to avoid. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
On my laptop I don't see any – I checked a desktop and there is some (I suspect the difference in media is the cause of the discrepancy above) with the "Moulding a the chapel's entrance", St Declan, St Ita and to a lesser extant the sea creature. Ceoil, I would recommend a multi image like the drawings in Portrait of a Musician#Identity of the sitter for St Ita (combining with St Finbarr – would work out nicely with the section name there too); for St Declan perhaps move it to the right and then remove the "{{clear}}" at the bottom of that section? Unsure about what to do about the moulding one, which is probably the most extreme sandwich, Sea creature seems OK to me but maybe Sandy disagrees Aza24 (talk) 02:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24 she means in the Brendan, Declan and Gobnait sect only...will hopefully but not defiantly be past lock down early December, so can get there there and take new pics, and switch to a full gallery format. Meanwhile, the half assed and incomplete left/right and 1 gallery format, given I have only a few pics to play with, will have to do. On it. Ceoil (talk) 03:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • File:Honan Hostel.jpg: what is the pre-1925 published source?
Added...1916 source. Ceoil (talk) 23:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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  • "A further eight" Would "The other eight" be better? Since you are now accounting for all 19.
  • " In 1911, the Queen's Colleges ceased as legal entities and Catholics were thereafter eligible to attend." Would it be better to say that the charters were voided or some such? The colleges apparently continued so existed in some form.
  • "and was acquainted with several members of the Irish Arts and Crafts and Celtic revival movements." Isn't this implied if not explicitly stated in the previous sentence?
  • "which had overseen the construction of the Eye, Ear & Throat hospital." Should hospital be capped?
  • " on grounds believed to be close to an early Christian monastic site founded by the saint.[34]" and "on a site once thought to contain one of Finbarr's original churches.[27]" seem mildly inconsistent.
  • Check consistency between "St." and "St". Similarly, "molding" and "moulding".
  • "It contained silver ornaments fitted by the Dublin gold and silversmith Edmond Johnson and William Egan and Sons of St Patrick's Street, Cork.[43]' Should the second "and" be "of"?
  • "The western doorway's moldings were carved from lozenge and pellets.[35]" Looking at the links here, they define lozenge as a geometric shape. I understand pellets as particles, but were these carved from a geometric shape?
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Wehwalt; working through these now. Ceoil (talk) 17:20, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not certain what your linking practice is for the saints in "Patrick, Brigid and Columcille" subsection.#
  • "Following the Easter Rising that year" probably deserves a link.
  • "in praise of God; Clarke depicts this in the depictions of birds on the window's borders.[71]" depicts/depictions.
  • " In the upper panel, the victims of a plague fled to her for sanctuary and protection." Possibly "flee" for "fled"? You use present tense for the other windows.
  • "Ita is sometimes known as the "The Brigid of Munster",[116] her window is dominated by shades of blue, a colour usually associated with Brigid.[118]" The first comma likely should be a semicolon.
  • "Clarke left notes on the window frame how "in the border and wherever possible emblems are introduced symbolising Ita's great devotion to the Holy Trinity."[118]" is there a missing word before "how"?
  • I'm not sure you're consistent in hyphenating "stained glass", even when used as an adjective.
  • In the footnotes, sometimes you use conventional reference footnotes, but once it's "See Rogers (1997), p. 209" Is there a reason?
That's all. I've done some minor copyediting.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Looks good. Interesting. If I ever get back to Cork I'll make a point of going there.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:14, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from KJP1

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Great to see this here, Ceoil. I shall certainly comment but am currently away so it will be next week. KJP1 (talk) 06:45, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the delay - work's been a nightmare. I missed the PR, but took a look at the article post-PR. It was looking good then, and has only improved since, through the comments here, and through another very detailed post-PR review. A few further observations below KJP1 (talk) 09:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Background and construction
  • "acquired the site of St. Anthony's Hall (also known as Berkley Hall)" - the UCC Conservation Plan, p.21, has "Berkeley Hall" which looks right.
Architecture
  • "the Honan Chapel's architectural style is Celtic-Romanesque revival" - the infobox lists the architectural type as Romanesque Revival, and the architectural styles as Arts & Crafts and Art Nouveau. Does the infobox need to reference the particularly "Celtic Revival" flavour of the building which, as the article shows, is perhaps the chapel's most notable feature?
  • "The chapel is located on a hillside overlooking the valley of the River Lee, near a site once thought to contain one of Finbarr's original churches" - this is also referenced at the end of the previous para. The "once thought" leads me to ask - do historians/archaeologists no longer think that it was the site of an early church?
  • "The western doorway's mouldings were carved from lozenge and pellets" - this reads just a little oddly to me. And being super-picky, Keohane also lists chevrons. Perhaps, "The western doorway's mouldings were carved as lozenges, pellets and chevrons"? Related, the chevron you've linked under Altar below, goes to Chevron (geology) whereas I think Chevron (insignia) is more appropriate. That said, you won't need the link if you make the amendment suggested above.
Tabernacle
  • "and shows the Trinity of God the Father, Jesus crucified, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove" - perhaps, "and shows the Trinity of God the Father, Jesus crucified, and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove"?
Stained glass windows
  • Footnote D - I'm puzzled by this. If there was fighting in the vicinity of the chapel, surely Purser's windows were as much under threat as Clarke's? I'm assuming that the Republicans didn't take a particular dislike to Clarke's on aesthetic grounds? Does the source explain? And another super-picky point. Footnotes D and I follow the references, whereas A, B, C, E and H precede them. Does the MoS call for consistency on this point? Ignore me if it doesn't.
Harry Clarke
  • "Clarke's windows are all single-light (that have just one opening, or verticle panel)" - is this a Gaelic variant of "vertical"?
  • "in particular the darker, fin de siècle works of Gustav Klimt, Aubrey Beardsley and Egon Schiele. In particular, his blending of bold and dark colours has been praised" - the proximity of the two "in particular"s jars a little. Perhaps, "in particular the darker, fin de siècle works of Gustav Klimt, Aubrey Beardsley and Egon Schiel. His blending of bold and dark colours has been especially praised.."
Brendan, Declan and Gobnait
  • "Brendan's sore-tired contemporaries" - Just checking that "sore-tired" isn't a typo, "sore-tried" would seem to make more sense?
  • "The upper panels details his return to Ireland from Wales" - either panels or details needs to lose its "s".
Finnbarr and Ita
  • "he is said to have worn continuously since the day he is said to have met with Christ" - you could lose the second "he is said".
Our Lord (Child)
  • "He is set off from the other saints by the window's tone frame the splendour of his crown," - not quite getting this. Is there a missing comma after "frame"? And is it, "by the colour tone of the window's frame, the splendour..."?
Administration and liturgical services
  • "The Honan is a separate legal identity from the university" - "entity" rather than "identity"?

It's a great article, beautifully illustrated, and I look forward to supporting when you've had a chance to review the above comments. KJP1 (talk) 09:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you KJP1 for your time and insight. As this is more in your area than mine, and the article is in part based on, in format and style, earlier FACs by you, especially appreciate. Addressing points now. Ceoil (talk) 11:07, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All sorted now. Ceoil (talk) 12:31, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looking very good and pleased to Support. KJP1 (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - Pass

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  • Some random (very minor) comments first Aza24 (talk) 06:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unsure about including this but is there a reason for the "Population growth and migration" that could be briefly mentioned?
There may be different theory's, some thorny, and not sure its in scope. Ceoil (talk) 00:34, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sources
  • Ref 1 missing retrieval date
  • It looks like you have the wrong year for Fennessy, and are missing the "Repercussions of Reform" part of the title – you could probably add the publisher here too since you have it later
  • Would add retrieval date for Wendy Good ref since you have them for the other online refs
  • O'Connell could use an OCLC too (should be on the archive.org page)
  • Any identifier for Wilson 2013? (JSTOR or DOI?)
  • Assuming Wincott Heckett should be marked as a PDF as well
In fact I dont know how to do this - the link does not have .pdf in the address, even though it it is a pdf. Help needed. Ceoil (talk) 04:23, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All addressed now, I think. Thank you for this most helpful review Aza. Ceoil (talk) 02:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to help. I added a "format=PDF" which doesn't have the little icon but I think it's the best we can get if the url doesn't have ".pdf" at the end of it. Pass for source review. Aza24 (talk) 01:42, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks and sound. Ceoil (talk)

Support Comments from TRM

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Adding a section for me to add some inane thoughts: definitely not an SME but hope that means my comments might be taken in good faith and be helpful to the wider community. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • The lead calls it a "small" church. I'm always at odds with this (it's never called "small" again) as one man's small is another man's XXL. Is it really needed?
  • "wealthy Cork family," don't think you linked Cork itself yet.
  • "the build of the" feels very modern to call it a "build", perhaps "construction"?
  • Just a thought: there are a handful of sentences in the lead with inline references. Is that really needed? Just on a personal level I aim to have nothing in the lead referenced as I know it'll be included and expanded upon in the main part of the article.
  • (It was particularly jarring when I got to "... internationally known[7] for its ...")
  • "Eleven were designed and installed by Harry Clarke.[9] The other eight..." I would merge with a "while" or something here, avoiding that short sentence.
  • "A few years previously": "a few" always jars with me for an encyclopedia.
  • "she left £40,000 to the" it may seem vulgar to some but I've always valued an inflation-related conversion to see what this really meant contextually.
  • You redlink O'Connell in the main body but not the lead, is that an approved approach?
    Need to do an article on him, but link removed for now. Ceoil (talk) 12:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " at UCC[20] and" personal thing, I loathe mid-stream refs especially if not after punctuation, any chance of moving this?
    Yup, moved for your pleasure Ceoil (talk) 20:22, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "O'Connell was assisted in..." aesthically and flow-wise, this mini-para jars a little, any chance of flowing it into the other paras?
  • "to Donovans road," I can't see the ref but can you confirm it's not "Donovans Road" or even "Donovan's Road"?
  • I always get this stuff wrong but should "the mid 20th century" be "mid-20th"?
  • "O'Connell, who in 1929, after ..." I lost count of the run-ons in this sentence.
  • "which had overseen the construction of the Eye, Ear & Throat Hospital" this appears to be non-notable (i.e. not linked) so it needs context, like why is it relevant to mention it?
  • " principal builder[29] and completed the work at a cost of £8,000.[B][31] The foundation stone, laid on 18 May 1915 ..." feels like we jumped a bit here, the completion didn't happen until 1916 and the next sentence jumps back to the foundation stone.
    Reworded this Ceoil (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of the Diocese of Cork;[12][33] on grounds " not sure why that's a semi-colon and not just a comma.
  • "Chapel's architectural style is Celtic-Romanesque revival." see above.
  • "The site is located on a hillside overlooking the valley of the River Lee, near a site..." the site ... near a site... repetitive.
  • Would Listed building be an appropriate link for "The building is listed as a protected structure " for those readers who have no idea what a listed building means?
  • "The chapel's interior is given a simple layout," why "is given a" rather than "has"?
  • I would link "nave" (first time).
  • And "chancel" and "nunnery".
  • "relatively simple[27][29] " this is repetitive.
  • " in response to the changed liturgical requirements," this is a complete mystery to me, what does it mean?
  • " the Adoration of the Lamb, with " do you mean this to link to the Ghent artwork?
  • "and have been described as the best" by Teehan? Or in general?
  • "The mosaic flooring was designed and installed by the UK-based mosaic artist" a shame to repeat mosaic so quickly.
  • "is part serpent" hyphenated? etc.
  • Not sure you need to (redirectly) link "planets" to "Solar system".
  • "the imagery more restrained. The imagery depicts " quickly repetitive.
  • Is the "g" of "garden of Eden" usually capitalised as it's a kind of "formal" name?
  • "Four windows depict female saints, each in a deep royal blue colour scheme." seems unreferenced.
    This is noted by a number of sources...hold on...Ceoil (talk) 18:30, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "[78][E][69][79] " it's perhaps a personal thing but I tend to keep refs and footnotes separate.
  • " a "distinct advance on anything which has been heretofore done in Ireland in stained glass.[40] " missing a closing quote mark.
  • "are all single light" forgive my ignorance, I have no idea what this means.
    It means the number of horizontal frames. Will clarify. Ceoil (talk) 00:45, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Brigid, Patrick and Columcille," all overlinked.
  • "in the late summer and autumn " I think we're advised to avoid seasons as they differ per WP:SEASON.
  • " a grotesque, claw-limbed Judas Iscariot[40] appears " according to whom and again, disliking that awkward ref placement. I'm sure our readers can wait until the end of the sentence.
  • "Declán of Ardmore" appears to have a diacritic.
  • "described as the "most remarkable" of " by whom?
  • Pretty sure we don't need to link Bee.
  • crozier or crosier? Pick one and link it once only.
  • "dedicated to Finbarr, patron saint of Cor" Finbarr is overlinked.
  • "is located on the north wall of " aren't windows normally "in" walls?
  • " met with Christ, who" you link Christ here but I think you've mentioned Jesus beforehand?
  • "ascetic St. Ita was born " St Ita overlinked.
  • "sixth-century" -> "6th century" for internal consistency.
  • Done
  • "She is sometimes " and " Ita is sometimes" in consecutive sentences, a little bit repetitive.
  • "a halo. The upper register shows Mary enthroned " halo and Mary overlinked.
  • "with Ita, a halo.[118] which according to " grammar fail.
  • "symbolizes" not sure on this one, this is clearly written in USEng but the rest of the article is in BritEng, but it's a quote. Just querying.
  • " the Trinity" the doesn't need to be part of the link.
  • " little known eighth century" ->"little-known eighth-century"
  • "and is located on the chapel's" on or in again.
  • " depict Mary and " Mary is overlinked.
  • "openening" typo.
  • "to depict Our Lady of Sorrows.[124] " overlinked.
  • Is it "single light" or "single-light"?
  • "O'Kelly writes that" surely "wrote"?
  • "Her "St. John" window in the only in the" doesn't make sense.
  • Link "register" first time round.
  • "following Vatican II meant" again this is intractable to me, perhaps some explanation is needed.
  • Celtic Revival or Celtic revival again...
  • Caveat: I haven't taken a single look at references yet, that's still to come.

That's my first quick pass. Hope some of it is useful, feel free to disregard any stupidity. I am aware that a certain user has started to "review my review" (on a previous FAC) which I find very uncomfortable so if that particular individual gets involved here, I will not engage in this review at all. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 00:02, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sound. Am about half ways through resolving, agree with nearly all, these are a huge help. Ceoil (talk) 00:23, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man I nether know nor care who that other editor is, but to say I have found your help here most beneficial, actually very much so, by the time we are finished addressing, the article will be far stronger. In other words, you are very much welcome here. Ceoil (talk) 00:34, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man...all adressed now I think. Phew! Ceoil (talk) 21:36, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As noted, I'm far from an SME on this subject, but I enjoyed the article and I'm pleased that my concerns have been addressed so I'm happy to support this nomination. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 08:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and support from Gerda

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I watched the article grow, after a beautiful invitation, until peer review, and will look as if I never did. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • Why is Jesus linked, but Mary not?
  • "by A. E. Child, Catherine O'Brien and Ethel Rhind of An Túr Gloine ("The Glass Tower") cooperative studio." - I suggest to have sooner that it's a studio, - it comes as a surprise after the brackets.

Background

  • I wonder if all the image caption needs to be there, vs. in the body.
  • I am no friend of a note and 4 refs after one fact. Also perhaps observe ascending ref order.

Architecture

  • "architectural historian and conservationist Frank Keohane as "a little too commonplace and formulaic"" - I'd like to see a hint at when he said so, without clicking to the ref. (Coming from an article where a view 100 years old is presented as if relevant.)
  • Not sure that the listing belongs in Architecture at all, but certainly not between the site and entering ;)
  • "The chapel's interior has a simple layout" is no surprise after the Keohane comment ;) - topped by "The oblong nave is relatively simple"

Altar

  • What do you think of making this and the next headers level 3 under architecture.
  • "The chapel has had two altars." Many chapels have many altars. How about saying one after the other and why in the first sentence?

Tabernacle

  • I don't see God the Father, - may be just me.

Mosaic floor

  • Psalm 148 will be expanded, promised, - just working on a hymn based on it.
  • as said, "saltire" should have a link the first time.

That's it for tonight. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:33, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stained glass

  • production - produce (too close in first sentence, no?)
  • I wonder if the long list of windows, with saints and artists, wouldn't be better in a table. I had forgotten that Child was a surname. Linking at present is inconsistent, and in a table, I'd just link all saints. Child appears now without given name and link first, and has initials and a link later.
    Have considered this, but in the end it would be too intrusive (19 rows) in an article that's already, arguabaly, too heavily weighted towards the windows, vs eg the furnishings. Also, have been involved recently in a discussion on the table in this article which leaves me cold re long tables in non-list pages. Ceoil (talk) 23:51, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Clarke

  • ref order + number
  • "single-light", what's that? - ignore if just me
  • now Mary is linked?
  • delink folklore?

Patrick

  • 3 saints, - treat all equal, all with "Saint" or none, or explain
  • connection of the Judas image to this section?

Finnbarr

  • delink Christ?
  • "Chance's"?

In the end, I'd think it would be good idea to name saints ("Saint" or "St." or "St" or nothing) consistently. Once a name is established, the person could appear with just the name. I confess that for Irish names, I often don't know if man or woman, and some pronoun following a name soon would help. - You gave me a video from a concert there: any information about events? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah re Irish names & man or woman; can be confusing with all those vowels etc. Will address that shortly and drop in pro-nouns to guide the reader. Re st., st, or saint, am aiming to just call them by first name after first mention. Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Re events, there arnt that many performances / concerts - the venue is very small, though with excellent acoustics, and they seem to be preoccupied with weddings for ex alumni, alas. Ceoil (talk) 23:57, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also, per Sandy above, have removed the ext link to the Fauré requiem[2]. Alas its hand held and very shaky, and only of value to nerds (or something!) like us. Ceoil (talk) 10:41, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see that, but think it's worth mentioning that the chapel is used for performing music in concert - if it is, and give the dates of that one as an example of the scope. Thank you for all the fixes, - out now, and busy today anyway, don't expect much more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to dress up something that isn't there. The chapel's admin dept is mostly preoccupied with making ends meet, ie through weddings. Ceoil (talk) 05:37, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Understand. I think the present use - even weddings - deserved a little mention, but also understand that this is firstly a cultural heritage. Ready to support, and already looking at the next, which - as the last - I recommend to review.
Article says "It hosts an average of 150 wedding services per year for graduates, which are a funding source for the chapel.[146]
yes, I also have Kaikhosru on my to do list. And thanks for review. Ceoil (talk) 09:03, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments from Johnbod

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Clearly pretty much there, but:

  • "is a small Catholic collegiate church..." - is it in fact? "a collegiate church is a church where the daily office of worship is maintained by a college of canons..." - I think this is just a university church. It's owned by a trust, as you know.
  • There are various expressions of the style. The NIAH uses "Hiberno-Romanesque style" for the architecture, which isn't used, but probably should be. I've fiddled a bit with some of these, but not adding H-R.
  • " and interior statuettes, floor, furniture and liturgical collection" - repeated just after
  • " in a traditionally Irish style"
  • "Population growth and migration in " - "urbanization" better? In Ireland "migration" usually means away from the island completely, no?
  • " O'Kelly suggests they evoke "the spirit of the ancient Celt"" - iffy link?
  • more later. Johnbod (talk) 17:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks John. Working through these now. Ceoil (talk) 18:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done to here except Hiberno-Romanesque style - will address shortly. Ceoil (talk) 22:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed, and the Hiberno aspect is discussed later in the page, mostly around O'Connell and his influences and aspirations. Ceoil (talk) 01:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Johnbod, I would like to move this one along. Any chance of your further comments over the next few days? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Resuming:
  • There are loads of "St"s and "St."s, which for the actual saints are not usually liked - I won't even look to see what MOS:SAINT has to say.
  • " While a number of the early Honan windows were completed by assistants working from his designs, Clarke solely designed the cartoon, transferred it to glass, and oversaw its installation in Cork." - reword "solely". Not sure what " transferred it to glass" involved. Nor the bit below. Can we have a fuller explanation of the process?
  • more later. I've done bits myself, which I hope are ok. Nearly there now (down to Finbarr). Johnbod (talk) 04:06, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Sketches are not transferred to glass. Now corrected. Have limited the use of st./st to their introduction, with first names after that. Ceoil (talk) 01:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clarke's depiction of Joseph is based on a 14th century representation of the prophet Zephaniah now in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London." in what medium, do we know?
Unfortunatly not. Teehan doesnt say more, and have spent hours searching the V%A archive, with no firm match. Ceoil (talk) 18:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The lower panel illustrates Joseph's death, with Mary, Jesus, Finnbarr, Columcille and a number of other saints kneeling in prayer at his deathbed." you might mention this is a super-rare subject, as he just disappears from the New Testament. I can ref that if needed.
Actually I find it had become not so rare by this time, so don't worry. Johnbod (talk) 23:24, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He is set off from the other saints by the window's tone frame" - something missing? An "s"? I'll assume so.
Rephrased this Ceoil (talk) 18:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't find most notes on the edit screen, but in H "Gibbon describes Clarke's approach to hid depiction as "daring"" - "his"?; Note I: "and described them as welcomely absent of the "foreign abominations"" - not "absent of" - "free from" or something.
Reworded. Ceoil (talk) 18:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, John, can I take your final comments above a support? Ceoil (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just let me check the changes. Johnbod (talk) 22:28, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnbod: Nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:23, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no rush here. Ceoil (talk) 17:57, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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