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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hot Sugar (song)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 17 July 2023 [1].

Hot Sugar (song)

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Nominator(s): Aoba47 (talk) 17:07, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to this 2013 song, Tamar Braxton thinks the best way to maintain a relationship is by giving them "that hot sugar". The lyrics are rather generic for this kind of sensual song, but music critics had more varied opinions on its genre, naming club, dance, hip hop, and funk as influences. Although Braxton wanted "Hot Sugar" to be Love and War's lead single, it was replaced by the album's title track and was never released as a fully-realized single. The track did receive a music video, featuring a spoof on Instagram, and according to Braxton, its directors abandoned the project in mid-production to work on Rihanna's Diamonds World Tour.

Thank you to @Cartoon network freak: (who has since retired) for the GAN review back in 2017. It's wild to think how much time has passed since then. I briefly opened a peer review for this article, but I ultimately decided to take it to the FAC process instead. I have completely rewritten this article earlier in the month, and while I'm admittedly not a fan of this song, I still enjoyed working on this. As always, any comments would be greatly appreciated! Aoba47 (talk) 17:07, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Media review — pass

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Support based on the prose. Heartfox (talk) 17:30, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Chris

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  • ""Hot Sugar" is song" => ""Hot Sugar" is a song"
  • "describing it has having" => "describing it as having"
  • "Writing for Democrat and Chronicle" => "Writing for the Democrat and Chronicle"
  • "The Tampa Bay Times's Joshua Gillin predicted "Hot Sugar" might be successful on radio, but he believed this could occur"
  • "According to the ABC News Radio" => "According to ABC News Radio"
  • "Addressing criticism about the male dancer's clothing" => "Addressing criticism about the male dancers' clothing"
  • Think that's it -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:37, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ChrisTheDude: Thank you for the review as always. Some of these were really silly mistakes on my part so apologies for that and I am glad they are now corrected. I believe I have addressed everything, except for the part on the Tampa Bay Times as I am not sure what the suggestion is there. Aoba47 (talk) 22:50, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Unlimitedlead

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  • "The lyrics are about maintaining a relationship": Somewhat brief, could more be said?
  • Unfortunately, not really. Only a few of the music critics really discuss the song's overall meaning, and it is mostly restricted to some variant of what is in the lead (i.e. maintaining a relationship or keeping a man). I checked through the sources again, and unfortunately, none of them really get into the specifics. Most of the coverage was focused on the song's production. Aoba47 (talk) 23:23, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...which tested better on radio": What is meant by this? Would something like "...which performed better on radio" make sense?
  • That is a fair question. I have replaced "tested" with "performed" as you have suggested as it covers the same basic principle. "Tested" may just be too much of a music industry term or jargon to be understood by a wider readership. What this part basically means is that prior to being officially released as a single, songs were sent out to radio stations to get a feel on how people would respond to them and depending on how they tested, they would either be pushed as a single or replaced by something else that did better. I could put that as a note if necessary like I did with the music showcase note. Aoba47 (talk) 22:53, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The music video 'Hot Sugar' was...": Minor, but I believe this would make more sense as "The music video for 'Hot Sugar' was..."
  • "...Love and War;[2][7] while on...": The usage of the word "while" implies some sort of correlation, which the following clause does not indicate.
  • I think you should briefly introduce 106 & Park as a music show.
  • "The Tampa Bay Times's Joshua Gillin predicted "Hot Sugar" might be successful on radio, but he believed this could occur as he found it to be 'just that meh': I think you should reword this sentence; I do not know what it is trying to tell me.
  • I have attempted to revise this part, but let me know if further revision would be helpful. This is the full sentence from the source regarding this: "I do expect to hear the song on endless repeat on the radio, though, because it's just that meh." From my understanding, Gillin is predicting the song would have radio success because he finds it generic and safe, and that slots into the criticism that some have about radio only play music that adheres to popular trends. Aoba47 (talk) 23:07, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...August 28, 2013, through...": Why the comma?
  • "Addressing criticism about the male dancer's clothing...": What Chris said about the apostrophe; also, what about the clothing drew criticism? Their inappropriateness?
  • I have revised the apostrophe. The source unfortunately does not delve into the actual criticism beyond Braxton saying: "It’s okay for men to dance in kilts!" I remember that when this video was released, there was criticism (from online commentators) about the male dancers appearing in what they considered feminine attire. This type of criticism was focused on men's sexual orientation and gender expectations with clothing, and it got very uncomfortable very quickly. I have attempted to revise the prose to address this, but unfortunately, this kind of stuff was not directly addressed in reliable sources. Aoba47 (talk) 23:07, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is all from me at this time. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Unlimitedlead: Thank you for the review! I believe that I have addressed everything, and I have left responses above that will hopefully answer your questions. If further explanations or revisions are necessary, I would be more than happy to talk through it further so the article can get into the best shape possible. I hope you are doing well and have a great rest of your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 23:23, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I will support this nomination. Good work. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:25, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the support. I greatly appreciate it. Aoba47 (talk) 23:34, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from PMC

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Reserving my spot, should comment within the week. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:39, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Take all the time you need. Aoba47 (talk) 07:21, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made a tweak to the sentence about genre in the lead, but feel free to revert me
  • Shouldn't the caption for the first image refer to the album Love and War, not the song?
  • You are right. It should be about the album. Apologies for that silly error. I have been making a lot of those with this article for some reason. I have revised it. Aoba47 (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per WP:JR I think Stewart II should just be referred to as Stewart
  • "On September 3, 2013, "Hot Sugar" was made available as part of the album's release." What does this mean? Was it a promo single? Some kind of digital download sneak peak?
  • This song was never released as a single. With that sentence, I was trying to convey that the song became available when the album was released. I have tried to revise it, but I am not sure if my revision is any better so I would more than welcome any suggestions or edits. Aoba47 (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm. I see some other articles for songs that aren't singles that use wording like ""This Song" is the third track on That Album, which was released on Novembuary 37, 20xx, via Some Record Label." Thoughts? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "vibe" might be slightly too slangy/informal to be encyclopedic. I'm not terribly bothered by it, but if there is a different word you could sub, that might be better.
  • I revised the sentence about Gillin's feelings - it just felt a bit tied up in itself. As always feel free to revert.
  • Thank you for the edits as your version is miles better than my wording. I think I was just looking at it for too long and I could not get out of my own head with it. Aoba47 (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Tamar did not enjoy their appearance" - is there any more detail about that? Seems like an interesting piece of drama
  • It was very dramatic. I used the episode (with a timestamp) as a primary source. Tamar was mad at her sisters because she thought their surprise appearance ruined the concert, which she described as a big moment in her career. It actually fits in with how earlier sections in the article discuss Tamar wanting to advance her career.
  • The episode features more of this, specifically Tamar yelling at her sisters and kicking them out of the concert, but I was not sure if that was worth mentioning and I did not want to give this moment undue weight, especially since it would cited through a primary source. I tried to keep it short for that reason. Aoba47 (talk) 22:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I got! Pretty clean and straightforward song article, so not much to gripe about :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ready to support. I did leave one suggestion about how to introduce the release date for the track, but feel free to not do it if you don't like it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review — pass

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  • Before commencing the source review, I wanted to ask about the four usages of Idolator and whether they're replaceable, as this has been a problematic source on other FACs. I also have a concern about AXS, which is a ticket retailer. I think the fact that they're involved with selling tickets for concerts by certain artists might compromise their ability to do neutral critical reviews. Is there information available about the specific author?--NØ 19:02, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @MaranoFan: I have removed the AXS source and a majority of the Idolator sources. For the most part, I could not find anything to replace the removed Idolator sources, except for one regarding a live performance. I did keep one Idolator article because it was done through Vibe and it was written by Kathy Iandoli who is a respected music critic who has been published in many publications. Aoba47 (talk) 21:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Media notes often don't include track lengths, would it be possible to cite a digital source for it (e.g. Apple Music)?
  • The Devin source says "Tamar Braxton keeps it fierce and fabulous in the video for 'Hot Sugar.' The R&B diva flaunts her moves" - I'm not getting that he "commended Braxton's dance moves" from this
  • It might be better to also not state "Joshua Gillin panned the music video" as this is not something directly stated in the source. I think the quote suffices
  • Other than that, the references appear to be consistently formatted and the sources seem okay reliability-wise for the contexts in which they are used.
  • Apologies for making a non-source-related comment, but I noticed Makeba Riddick's full name is repeated in the 'Background and Release' and 'Music and lyrics' sections. Since she has a distinct last name, maybe the second usage could be shortened to that.--NØ 01:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

NØ

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  • I think it would be fine to lose the word "recorded" in the opening sentence, since Braxton's contributions to this song include songwriting
  • "it was replaced by the album's title track, which performed better on radio" - If "Hot Sugar" was never issued to radio, how did the title track perform better?
  • "Hot Sugar" was never released as a fully-fledged single, but it is common for record labels to send songs out to radio stations (as a form of "radio stations") to gauge if a song should or should not released as a single. It is all about if it tests well or not.
  • I have added a note, which specifies how this particular song was sent out to radio and has a broader definition for "radio testing" in general. It seems like a common thing for record labels, but like with a lot of the behind-the-scenes aspects of music, it is not really publicly discussed as much. For a different example of this, Kelly Clarkson briefly mentioning testing in this interview at around the 38:24 mark. It seems to be a very "music industry" term so I agree that further clarification was necessary. Aoba47 (talk) 19:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead uses "in Tamartiangram" and the Music video section uses "on Tamartiangram"
  • "the directors had abandoned it in mid-production"
  • "Stewart produced the song, which was mixed and recorded by Michael Donaldson" - Donaldson's roles could be shifted to active voice, something like: "Stewart produced the song, and Michael Donaldson mixed and recorded it"
  • "Riddick described the production as "a hard, bouncy beat that we knew was gonna make the clubs go crazy"" - I think this sentence could be conveyed better, as a beat is a part of a song's production and not the entirety of it. How about "Riddick thought the production incorporated "a hard, bouncy beat that we knew was gonna make the clubs go crazy""
  • "Despite having mixed reviews for the album's uptempo songs" - I thought "mixed reviews" is generally used to describe diverging opinions among a number of people. Is it possible to be more specific about what Rayam said about the uptempo songs?
  • I have added a quote to hopefully clarify this, but I would be more than happy to revise this further if necessary. The basic gist is that she felt the uptempo songs were uneven in quality or were a mixed bag. Aoba47 (talk) 19:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it possible to very briefly introduce what 106 & Park is, as it does not have an article and this may not be immediately obvious to readers
  • 106 & Park does have an article. It was just linked and discussed in an earlier section. I have moved that down to the "Music video" section as it is more pertinent there. Aoba47 (talk) 19:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to Braxton, she had to hire other people to edit and complete it" - This reads more like a claim than an opinion so how about "Braxton claimed that she had to hire other people to edit and complete it"?
  • Upon first reading, it wasn't clear to me what an industry showcase is so I am glad to see a detailed note about this!
  • Thank you! Like with "radio testing", it is very much an industry term. Maybe one day I will either try to put together an article or write something where it can be linked for unfamiliar readers. You can thank the reviewers for the Manos Arriba FAC as they really helped me to create and formulate this note. Aoba47 (talk) 19:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was included on the set list of the Love and War Tour" - very nitpicky of me but I prefer "set list for the Love and War Tour" over "set list of the Love and War Tour"
  • There's a maintenance message about the media notes that seems to go away if the publisher field is replaced with author
That's all from me. Great work as always and I am open to hearing your explanations if I am wrong on any points.--NØ 09:34, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MaranoFan: Thank you for your review. I greatly appreciate it. I believe that I have addressed everything, but please let me know if further revision would be necessary. I hope you have a great rest of your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 19:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for addressing everything. I now support this article for promotion.--NØ 06:22, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the help and the support! Aoba47 (talk) 17:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

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Recusing to review.

  • "the song's genre as club, dance, and hip hop." Should that "and" be 'or'? And "interpreted the song's genre as club, dance, and hip hop" in the lead does not seem to me to be a reasonable summary of "describing it as having influences from club, dance, and hip hop."
  • Revised to better represent that these are interpretations of the musical influences and the genre. You are correct that the lead was not representing this information well. Apologies for that. I have also changed it to "or" as I agree that is better wording. Aoba47 (talk) 21:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "her second studio album, Love and War (2013)." Suggest 'her second studio album, Love and War, which was released in 2013.'
  • " "Hot Sugar" was planned to be issued as the lead single from Love and War before it was replaced by the album's title track". If "Hot Sugar" was never released as a single, it may be worth explicitly saying so.
  • "leather pants and kilts." I am guessing - I may be wrong - that → 'leather pants or kilts'.
  • "doing a "groin stretch"." Why the qoute marks?
  • "she viewed the video was her way of". "viewed" in the context of video is confusing. Perhaps 'considered'?
  • "Braxton first performed "Hot Sugar" at a 2012 industry showcase". Do you mean the first live performance? If so, say so.

Well written, flows nicely and seems comprehensive. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:03, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Gog the Mild: Thank you for your review. I always appreciate it and thank you for taking the time to do so. I believe that I have addressed everything. The only thing I have not changed was explicitly saying that the song was never released as a sing since that is not explicitly stated in any sources. Let me know if there is anything further I can do to improve the article. I hope you are doing well and have a great rest of your day and/or night! Aoba47 (talk) 21:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good evening Aoba47, you flatterer. Always a pleasure to read classy articles. Outside my usual areas, but it behoves a coordinator to be a jack of all trades. Well up to FAC standard and I hope my colleagues will get it promptly promoted. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:43, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the kind words. I should review more FACs outside of my usual areas. It is a great way to learn more and would help me improve as a reviewer. Not going to lie, I am looking forward to this promotion so I can take a break from Wikipedia for a bit, but I am in no rush of course. Aoba47 (talk) 21:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I find that reviewing completely different types of articles to those I write gets me away from the standard tropes and introduces me to new ways of writing, and occasionally even thinking. Both of which I find refreshing. We will miss your reviews, but you have certainly earnt the right to put your feet up for a bit. Enjoy. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:16, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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