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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ignace Tonené/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 17 March 2023 [1].

Ignace Tonené

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Nominator(s): CT55555(talk) 22:53, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Ignace Tonené, a 19th-century fur trader in Canada and the Indigenous chief of the Teme-Augama Anishnabai. His gold prospecting caused a gold rush in 1906. CT55555(talk) 22:53, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First-time nomination

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No, a reviewer will materialise. This is largely an internal prompt/reminder. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Licensing looks ok. But there is a contradiction in the dates of the personal life section. He couldn't have married his first wife after she died. (t · c) buidhe 00:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for catching that error, I have now fixed it. They married in 1860. CT55555(talk) 00:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just re-pinging you, because I added an image since your review. CT55555(talk) 18:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The image I have added is up for deletion discussion, although I think it will be kept and the deletion discussion is because someone assumes (due to low resolution) that it is not original work. I sincerely think that assumption of bad faith is at odds with normal behaviour and I assume the image will be kept or speedy kept.
Link: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_uploaded_by_Bluesmtb
cc/ping @Buidhe CT55555(talk) 15:49, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
AGF is an enwiki, not Commons, rule and anyway doesn't apply to reasonable suspicion of copyright issues. Now that I look closer I think the deletion !votes have a point. The image will have to be removed since it's very unlikely that the discussion would be closed before the FAC is. (t · c) buidhe 18:20, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the context, that is helpful. I've deleted the image from the article. CT55555(talk) 18:42, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Heartfox

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  • "died 1916" → Hodgins and Morrison (HM) give "d. 15 March 1916 in the Lac Abitibi region, Que"
  • add the marriages and number of children to the infobox
  • Nias not given in infobox but Maiagizis is?
  • "negotiated with the federal and provincial governments" → I would specify that these are referring to the Canadian federal and Ontario provincial governments per WP:EASTEREGG
  • "also known as Nias and Maiagizis" → this should be repeated in the body, ideally with a note specifying the English meaning as indicated by HM
  • you don't need to repeat citations if the whole paragraph is supported by the same one (ie early life section)
  • the anike ogima (English: deputy-chief)", "As the anike ogima" → see MOS:FOREIGNITALIC
  • "Tonené worked for the Hudson's Bay Company" → specify that he did so from 1857
  • "Tonené was elected to succeed his father" → this is the exact wording of the original source and should be rephrased. There is also close paraphrasing elsewhere.
  • "Tonené, with two associates, met Charles Skene, a federal Indian agent to explain their concerns about arriving lumberjacks and that they sought an annuity and a reserve, since their people's land had not been ceded to the Canadian government" → this can be written clearer without four commas in one sentence
  • "During a January 1, 1879 speech" → see MOS:DATECOMMA
  • "scarcer...so" → see MOS:ELIPSIS
  • "which resulted in an acknowledgement from Lawrence Vankoughnet" → give a word or two before the name to explain who this is; readers should be able to have a basic understanding without having to click on a link
  • "He continued to press for federal financial support and the creation of a reserve through a series of meetings and letters" → with who?
  • "in English" → not seeing this in HM
  • other first nations" → shouldn't First Nations be capitalized?
  • "which he proposed to be", "The community agreed" → the tribal council proposed it collectively, not Tonené alone
  • "south end of Lake Temagami" → Lake Temagami is already linked in the early life section
  • source says Mowat blocked it "mainly because of the valuable pine in the region". This is essential context and should be added
  • "In 1888, after Oliver Mowat's refusal to create the reserve, Tonené moved his family to land between Lake Opasatica and Lake Dasserat near Abitibi, Quebec" → specify that 1888 was also when he was no longer head chief
  • During the journey, Tonené fed his family by hunting and trapping and, motivated by the discovery of silver at Cobalt, Ontario, prospecting" → no this was in 1903 not during the journey to Bear Island.
  • "became so good" → this is kind of informal
  • "Quebec-Ontario" → see MOS:ENBETWEEN
  • cartographic.info → please cite government of Canada website instead of Google Maps
  • Angus needs page number(s)
  • Creskey is a book review of Angus. Please cite Angus instead.
  • you provide a publisher location for one book but not the other; be consistent
  • is there not an ISBN for Potts, Angus? page number should read "p. 212"
  • instead of www.biographi.ca write Dictionary of Canadian Biography and you really only need to include ""Biography – Tonené, Ignace" in the title
  • the further reading appears to be a master's thesis and that is not really necessary to include

Best, Heartfox (talk) 04:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Partly an update, party a note to myself: all issues addressed, except:
  1. the anike ogima (English: deputy-chief)", "As the anike ogima" → see MOS:FOREIGNITALIC (I don't understand the feedback)
It should read as deputy-chief (anike ogima) — "Use foreign words sparingly"
  1. Close paraphrasing, (I still need to review)
  2. Page numbers for Cobalt (book)
CT55555(talk) 16:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Heartfox Thank you for the clear feedback, most of which I have addressed. Regarding my points 1 through 3 above:
  1. Can you help me understand what the edit should be (or did it already get resolved perhaps)?
  2. I appologise for this, I thought I had sufficiently changed everything into my own words, can you direct me towards where you saw the close paraphrasing, or if there is a tool you recommend to search for this?
You can check https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=Ignace+Tonen%C3%A9&oldid=&action=search&use_engine=1&use_links=1&turnitin=0 to see what sentences can be changed to differ a bit more
  1. I've been unable to ascertain this from online work, I will need to revisit the library, so it might take a little time to find the page numbers.
CT55555(talk) 16:31, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is my use of MOS:ELIPSIS still incorrect? Maybe it's my eyesight, maybe my intelligence (lol), maybe my source code stills, but I can't see the difference between the correct and incorrect way to do them, so I'm confused if they are wrong or right.
If they are wrong, and anyone is willing to make the edit, I'd be very grateful. CT55555(talk) 18:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to @SchroCat for fixing the ellipses issue. CT55555(talk) 14:06, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and commonly known as Chief Tonené" → needs a citation
  • You can use Template:Marriage for the marriages in the infobox
  • There are still paragraphs with repeated sentences being cited to the same source. It's okay to just have one citation at the end of all the sentences citing the same one.
  • You didn't need to split up the paragraphs. It's okay if they're not all about the exact same thing. Having four two-sentence paragraphs in a row is very choppy and discouraged.
  • "and in 1903 starting prospecting motivated by the discovery of silver at Cobalt, Ontario, prospecting" → prospecting repeated twice
  • "for the reserve, the community agreed should be about 100 square miles around Cross Lake and the south end of Lake Temagami. The community agreed." → for the reserve; the community that agreed it should be about 100 square miles around Cross Lake and the south end of Lake Temagami.
  • "primarily concerned about the pine lumber at the location" → specify that it was about the value of the pine, not just the pine itself.
  • use a consistent date format; the death is written differently in the infobox and prose

I have struck addressed comments and replied to your edits. Pinging buidhe as a new image has been added. Best, Heartfox (talk) 18:30, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Heartfox, for the fast re-review, and for the clear feedback. I figured everything out and made every edit request (I think, I hope) with the exception of the page numbers for the Cobalt book (pending library visit). CT55555(talk) 19:41, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update, I was able to ascertain the page numbers for Cobalt: Cradle of the Demon Metals, Birth of a Mining Superpower and added them in CT55555(talk) 20:50, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've done everything suggested. One point remains not struck through ("There are still paragraphs with repeated sentences being cited to the same source. It's okay to just have one citation at the end of all the sentences citing the same one.") even though I think I've addressed that. Please let me know where you see any errors, or if you consider this one addressed. CT55555(talk) 14:46, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, a lot has changed since I first reviewed the article, including the addition of a new book which is now the second-most cited reference. This is really not ideal when the article has so few sources to begin with. I have already spent much time reviewing, and I don't feel comfortable spending more time adding more comments at this time. Consider the comments above as a quasi-peer review. Best, Heartfox (talk) 18:31, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, another reviewer encouraged me to add that book, so I hope I've navigated correctly. I appreciate all the work you've put into this. CT55555(talk) 19:05, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

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I was the GA reviewer, and I thought this was close to FAC standard when I passed it. A few more comments:

  • "As the deputy chief, Tonené was also known as Chief Tonene": if the point is that they dropped the accent I'm not sure that's worth mentioning, or even that it's accurate -- this is a 2000s source that is not claiming to give contemporary usage, and Googling "site:https://temagamifirstnation.ca tonene" returns three uses of his name on the site, none with the accent, so I think they're just omitting it. If the point is that he was known as "Chief" even though he was just a deputy chief again I would cut it; I don't think the source is clear that the "Chief" usage is contemporary with the events described, rather than simply using the name he has since become known by.
  • The section on "Temagami leadership" could do with a sentence or two more of background about the Robinson treaties. At first mention you simply say "he raised the issue of his community's exclusion from the 1850 Robinson Treaty between European settlers and Ojibwa nations around Lake Huron", but a reader unfamiliar with the treaties will have no idea what this refers to or what the benefits to his people would have been. Later you link to the same article, with different link text: "Robinson-Huron Treaty"; perhaps make this a section link to the relevant section of the article.
  • Are any more details available about how his claim was jumped? I had a look in newspapers.com but couldn't find anything.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this feedback.
  1. I've removed the alternative name. My initial motivation were both about the accent and the Chief title, but I agree with your feedback, it's not necessary.
  2. I added some background to explain what the treaty is, made the two mentioned of the treaties/treaty more similar and made the second link go to the relevant treaty.
  3. I re-read the relevant parts of Cobalt: Cradle of the Demon Metals, Birth of a Mining Superpower to get more background on the theft. The book doesn't say much more than what was already in the article. I checked Charlie Angus bibliography and he cites a draft article by David Wright. Searching for that article online takes me to the comment page on Wiki Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Tournenie_(HS85-10-21122).jpg which doesn't add any more. I've searched extensively while writing this article and I suspect that no more reliable sources about this exist, at least online.
CT55555(talk) 13:58, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The changes look good, except that I see you added a reference to section 141 of the Indian Act. I don't know if it's correct, but our article says that was added in 1927. What's your source for that section number? And more generally that section doesn't mention any restriction on access to the courts prior to 1927, so I'm also curious what the source is for saying the Indian Act was an issue at all? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From Cobalt page 42 "Tonene's claims were jumped by white prospectors. he tried to establish his rights through the courts, but under section 141 of the Indian Act it was illegal for Tonene to hire a lawyer." If it is clear that Charlie Angus made an error in his book (I don't know, I considered it a reliable source), I could just delete that line, I'm neutral on the issue. CT55555(talk) 14:47, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Following some references it appears that there was no law against Indians obtaining legal aid until the 1927 version of the Indian Act, so I think it should be cut. In addition, the biography.ca source says "one of" his claims was jumped; that is, he had more than one claim, and not all were jumped. I think that should be clarified -- I would definitely rank that source as more reliable than a book by a politician. And the mention of the Tonene Old Indian Mining Company is probably worth including too, though it should be clear Tonene's relationship with it is completely unknown. Also, have you looked at this source? I found it via the biography.ca references; it mentions Tonene several times though I don't know if it covers anything you don't have. It might be useful to replace the Angus source in some cases since this is an academic publication. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I had not seen that source and it contains helpful details on his father, grandfather and brother, also his early leadership activities and some details that helped me expand the article! Thanks! Any tips you have on how you found that would be welcome.
Rather than drop the Indian Act detail, I said that the book claimed.... but if you feel that it should be deleted, I'll agree and do that.
I added mention of the mining company.
The academic source has so much overlapping content with Angus, that I suspect Angus used it as a source, so perhaps I should make those changes. That will take me a bit of time. I'll update on that soon.
Likewise the claim/claims issue will take me more time to process. Will update on that soon too. CT55555(talk) 23:40, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Re the Indian Act, everything I'm finding says the restriction was introduced in 1927 -- e.g. this, or see this, which explicitly says indigenous people were only banned from hiring lawyers to represent them from 1927 to 1952. I think Tonené's problem was more likely to be what Annalise Acorn outlines on p. 133 here, in the essay "Trust in the Relationship between Indigenous People and the Canadian State": rather than any legal prohibition, it was the practical barrier to getting justice through the courts that stifled indigenous lawsuits. That's only my guess, though, and I think it would stray into original research to introduce anything into the article suggesting that. But I think this all means we shouldn't mention the Indian Act with regard to the claim jumping; it's clear Angus is wrong. As to how I found the source: I starting searching in archive.org for the sources referenced by biography.ca -- archive.org has started carrying an amazing number of books over the last few years and you can find stuff there that's not visible in Google Books. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about the Indian Act. And I very much appreciate your guidance on sources. CT55555(talk) 03:24, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the sentence about the Indian Act. CT55555(talk) 03:24, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have now reviewed. I was not able to favour the more academic source for the Cobalt book's claims, as the content is not the same. It did let me add a few details (job titles, tree speices) so I made some minor improvements. CT55555(talk) 14:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have now addressed each of these recommendations. Please let me know if there is anything remaining that I should do. CT55555(talk) 14:46, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing left is that I think we should include the biography.ca information that Tonené had multiple claims, and one was stolen, rather than implying his only claim was stolen. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've done that. I was careful because:
  1. I've written several mining articles and I think most mines are a combination of various claims and I think what most people call a claim is legally a cluster of adjacent claims. i.e. the distinction is often not made, even in more official sources.
  2. Tonene died poor. The Kerr-Addison Mine produced 12 million ounces of gold. Clearly the one that was stolen was the important one.
So I don't want to imply that was just one of several important claims that was stolen, the theft was clearly the one/ones that mattered.
So I avoided implying he had only one, but I've not emphasised that too much, as it could distract from the point. I hope you'll agree with that? CT55555(talk) 14:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it's tricky, and that we have to be careful here. The source says "...he began prospecting. He was successful enough that one of his claims was jumped; Indian Affairs was unable to secure redress." Rereading I don't think it asserts that he definitely had more than one claim -- I would guess that the author found information in Indian Affairs archives about the failure to correct the claim jumping, so that means he had one claim, but it doesn't say if or how many other claims he had. I would also cut "ore body" as being unnecessary detail and also to avoid close paraphrasing concerns. How about "He discovered the Kerr Addison gold mine at McGarry, and is known to have staked at least one claim there, though that claim was stolen from him by white settlers"? Then something similar in the lead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've done almost that, but needed to add words "... at a location that later became the..." because the mine wasn't created until several years later.
I think that satisfactorily resolvs it. What do you think? CT55555(talk) 15:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I made minor subsequent edits, I think no meaning was changed. But now I think "at least one claim there" could be replaced with "a claim there" as that means the same and doesn't hint so strongly towards something unknown. If you agree so far, would you also agree to that? CT55555(talk) 15:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a fine point, but I think we do need to imply more than one claim -- the biography.ca source does say "one of his claims". The lead currently says "although his claim over the gold was stolen from him by white Canadian prospectors"; could we make that "one of his claims", which is the phrasing the source uses? It's too short a phrase to be a close paraphrasing issue. Then in the body I think it would be best to leave it as is. SchroCat, since you're reviewing this too, would you mind commenting? To save you reading the whole discussion, the issue is how to represent the sources, one of which says "one of his claims" but gives information about only one claim. I think that means we should avoid wording that implies there was only one claim. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your analysis and changed the lead accordingly. CT55555(talk) 16:49, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, in that case. SchroCat, looks like the question is resolved, though of course if you do take a look it would be good to have your opinion. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping. The lead looks fine, although the body says staked at least one claim there, though that claim was stolen from him by white settlers". There are two points here - one of which is the quote mark, which needs to either have a twin or be removed. The other point moves from plural to singular (at least one claim ... that claim). Could "that" be replaced by "a"? - SchroCat (talk) 16:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the accidental quote mark.
I edited the sentence, I went for "staked at least one claim there which was subsequently stolen from him by white settlers" which I think reads better. Although, I'm happy to use your words if you think they are better. CT55555(talk) 17:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that works for me. - SchroCat (talk) 17:25, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck my support, above, as I'm opposing for sourcing reasons, below. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SC

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A good article, but a few comments:

  • "and The Crown": should be a lower-case "t"
  • "for both an immediate and an ongoing financial payments": this doesn't quite work. "for an immediate and ongoing financial payments" would work
  • "During a January 1, 1879, speech": I'm never happy seeing constructions like this – and the day isn't necessary. How about "During a speech in January 1879"?
  • "Canadian Prime Minister John A. Macdonald deferred the matter to the Ontario Premier as land claims were a provincial government, rather than a federal issue, although in 1883 the Department of Indian Affairs agreed to an annual payment to the nation comparable to the amount other First Nations included in the Robinson Huron Treaty were receiving." This sentence is a little long and tries to do too much – so much so that I had to re-read it a couple of times to make sure I understood it. It could do with rewording and probably splitting.
  • "the community agreed it should be about 100 square miles surrounding Cross Lake and at the south end of Lake Temagami. The community agreed." Why are we told "the community agreed" twice in quick succession?
  • "starting prospecting motivated": comma after prospecting needed
  • "gold instigating the": "instigated" would be better
  • You state in the lead that "his stake was stolen from him by white Canadian prospectors": that isn't quite matched by "his claim was stolen from him".

That's my lot. – SchroCat (talk) 09:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I appreciate the way you presented the feedback to make it easy to make the improvements. I agree with all this helpful feedback and have made all the suggested improvements. CT55555(talk) 14:02, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Nice article. Short, but I am going to AGF that you've exhausted all the relevant sources. - SchroCat (talk) 15:41, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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  • The date formats used in the footnotes should be made consistent; you have "1 March 2022" and "2013-02-15".
  • The two web citations using {{cite web}} are fine, but are inconsistent with the Canadian Geographical Names Database citation.
  • The three book citations are not consistent -- you might find {{cite book}} worth trying, though it's completely optional, as it would automatically resolve some consistency issues. Specific points:
    • You have a page number at the end of the Potts cite after the ISBN but not for any of the other citations. Cites have to allow a reader to find the material; citing to a whole book is not precise enough.
    • Formatting nitpicks: you have a full stop and a space after "Charlie Angus (2022)", but neither after "Bruce W. Hodgins and Jamie Benidickson (1989)".
    • Be consistent about whether you use "Last name, first name" or "First name last name".

As this is your first FAC we need to do a spotcheck. I've already looked at several sources as part of the review, but will check some more once you've added page numbers. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clear details. I believe I have now addressed them all. CT55555(talk) 21:00, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you divide FN 2 into separate footnotes for the different page numbers? E.g. there should be one for p. 35, one for 40-48 (or more, if that range could be sensibly subdivided).

Spotchecks:

  • FN 6 cites "In 2016, the lake south of Bear Lake and north of Larder Lake was officially renamed as Chief Tonene Lake." Mostly verified, but as far as I can tell it's not clear there was a prior name, so "named" rather than "renamed" might be safer.
  • FNs 1 & 4 cite "Tonené and two associates met federal Indian agent Charles Skene to explain their concerns about arriving lumberjacks. As their people's land had not been ceded to the Canadian government, the delegation sought an annuity and a reserve." Can you give the source material you're using from Potts for this? From the other source the supporting sentence is "In 1877 Tonené and two others met on Lake Nipissing with federal Indian agent Charles Skene, and explained that their community had never ceded its land but now wanted an annuity from the treaty and a reserve." This is too closely paraphrased; it's essentially the same sentence with some synonyms substituted. In a situation like this it's usually better to forget the original sentence and re-explain the content from scratch without reference to the source, to try to come up with a new way to give the information. And a lumberjack is a workman; a lumberman can mean a businessman who runs a lumber company, so those are not synonyms.
  • FN 2 cites "He continued to press the government for federal financial support and the creation of a reserve through a series of meetings and letters written in Anishinaabe, which resulted in an acknowledgement from Indian agent Deputy Superintendent Lawrence Vankoughnet in 1880 that approximately 2,700 square miles of Temagami land was indeed unceded." Is this from p. 46? If so it's actually 2770 square miles, so 2,800 would be a more natural way to round it. I can't see anything there about the language of the letters, and only one meeting is clearly described. Is there more about this elsewhere in the source?
  • FN 5 cites "His successful finds of gold instigated the Larder Lake gold rush of 1906, according to the Canadian Mining Journal." Can you quote the supporting text?
  • FN 1 cites "Initially, Canadian Prime Minister John A. Macdonald deferred the matter to the Ontario Premier, but in 1883, the Department of Indian Affairs agreed to an annual payment to the nation." The supporting text in the source is "Though the deputy superintendent general of Indian affairs, Lawrence Vankoughnet, agreed in 1880 that the Temagami land, estimated at 2,770 square miles, “does not appear to have been surrendered,” the superintendent general (and prime minister), Sir John A. Macdonald, deferred action since only the province could set land aside. Nevertheless, in 1883 Indian Affairs agreed to pay an annual grant equivalent to that provided to other bands under the Robinson-Huron Treaty." This seems inaccurate to me -- there's no reason to say "Initially", since the source doesn't connect Macdonald's action with the action by Indian Affairs, and no mention of the Ontario Premier.
  • FN 1 cites "In his leadership role, he raised the issue of his community's exclusion from the Robinson Treaties between European settlers and Ojibwa nations around Lake Huron." The source has "As second chief, Tonené had raised the matter of his people's non-participation in the treaty negotiated by William Benjamin Robinson in 1850 with Ojibwa communities on Lake Huron." This is too close; again this is the original sentence with some synonyms substituted.
  • FN 1 cites "He was born in 1840 or 1841 near Lake Temagami in the Teme-Augama Anishnabai community of the Temagami First Nation in what British settlers knew as Upper Canada." The source has "b. 1840 or 1841 in the vicinity of Lake Temagami, Upper Canada, eldest son of Kabimigwune (François) and Marian; d. March 15, 1916 in the Lac Abitibi region, Que. Ignace Tonené was a member of the highly nomadic group of natives known in the 19th century, and through much of the 20th, as the Temagami band of Ojibwa, who now regard themselves as a non-Ojibwa “border people” called the Teme-Augama Anishnabai." The source deliberately avoids giving his people the name "Teme-Augama Anishnabai" at the time of his birth, and doesn't say anything about the community he was born into, only the people he was a member of.

Oppose. I'm sorry to do this, since I think a lot of care has gone into the article, but short articles with thin sourcing can be particularly difficult to work with because it's hard to piece the material together without re-using the original sentences. Here the problems with integrity seem to be the result of slight inaccuracies introduced by paraphrasing, with the unfortunate result that the close paraphrasing problems are not eliminated either. This sort of thing is not all that quick to fix, but it's a short article -- if you decide to rework the text while it's still here at FAC, I suggest getting another source reviewer to take a look. If another reviewer feels the problems are gone I will re-evaluate my oppose. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck my oppose per SN's re-review below. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:06, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FN6 if you click "other names" you get to here: https://geonames.nrcan.gc.ca/search-place-names/unique?id=0c5258d7849c20c33345630cad47791b and you see the earlier names lac Tournen and Tournene Lake (quote "previously official"). So it was officially renamed. Maybe I should add a citation, I thought because it was one click it might be OK. CT55555(talk) 22:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I added a 7th citation to make this more clear. CT55555(talk) 23:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FNs 1 & 4 cite "Tonené and two associates met federal Indian agent Charles Skene to explain their concerns about arriving lumberjacks. As their people's land had not been ceded to the Canadian government, the delegation sought an annuity and a reserve."
It is from: In 1877 Tonené and two others met on Lake Nipissing with federal Indian agent Charles Skene, and explained that their community had never ceded its land but now wanted an annuity from the treaty and a reserve..
I see your point, it is very similar. I tried to rewrite it in my own words, but my desire for accuracy got the better of me.
I have rewritten that sentence to: Tonené was concerned about the impact of lumberjacks and their impact on the natural resources. He advocated to federal Indian agent Charles Skene for the provision of an annuity payment and the creation of reserve. CT55555(talk) 22:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2,700 now corrected to 2,800. Sorry bad mathematics. CT55555(talk) 22:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the language of the letters. Source 1 says: sending letters written in his own language which is my source for "and letters written in Anishinaab" CT55555(talk) 22:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The point about the meetings is from the earlier part of that sentence in the source "Tonené kept up the pressure for grants and a reserve, meeting several times with Skene and his successor..." CT55555(talk) 22:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The source for the Canadian Mining Journal line is Coblat. "The Canadian Mining Journal credited Tonene with launching the 1906 Larder Lake gold rush..." p42 CT55555(talk) 22:19, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I felt that "initially" was a fair paraphrasing, the source seems to say that happened first. Quoting: "Sir John A. Macdonald*, deferred action since only the province could set land aside. Nevertheless, in 1883 Indian Affairs agreed to pay an annual grant equivalent to that provided to other bands under the Robinson-Huron Treaty." It seems unavoidably correct that Sir John's actions were initial. So I think my words are correct, but I feel like maybe I'm missing something here? CT55555(talk) 22:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I note the very fair observation about my close paraphrasing. I again strived for accuracy and got too close to the original words. I have now rewritten the sentence: "As second chief, Tonené had raised the matter of his people's non-participation in the treaty negotiated by William Benjamin Robinson in 1850 with Ojibwa communities on Lake Huron". CT55555(talk) 22:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is an astute observation, the subtly of which escaped me until now. I have now removed the Teme-Augama Anishnabai label in the early life section. CT55555(talk) 22:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
CT55555, unless you can find a reviewer willing to go through your changes in the next two or three days I am afraid that this will be archived, for you to continue your work on it off-FAC. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:52, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the update, I wasn't sure what to do next. I am optimistic that I have addressed all of @Mike Christie's concerns. I'm new to this, so a bit unsure of how things work. How/where would I find a reviewer willing to go through my changes? CT55555(talk) 13:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps post a request at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates and/or Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Image and source check requests. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:05, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Just pinging you @Gog the Mild now that the incredibly helpful @Serial Number 54129 has passed the source review. Also noting that @In_actu has withdrawn their objection. CT55555(talk) 16:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're in no rush to close it down SN, it has picked up a couple of supports and the images seem sound. So take your time, watch out for Mike's famous fix loop and let us know how your explorations go. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:06, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pass: Source review: Furst blood, part deux
edit

*[In progress] SN54129 14:54, 15 March 2023 (UTC) Formating:[reply]

  • Your page range for Cobalt should be 'pp' rather than 'p'; ditto Hodgins #2.
  • Might be worth archiving ref #3, unless you can find an online identifier for it?
  • One thing that stands out to me more than anything is the sheer reliance on two sources—both of which share a co-author. In brown numbers, Bruce Hodgins accounts for 24 out of 32 discrete references. That's one helluva reliance on what's arguably a single source. SchroCat points out AGF above, and on the whole, I think we can agree that if the tightrope of verifiability-while-avoiding-close-paraphrasing has been crossed successfully, we can assume that 1b and 1f are passed.
    Here we go.
Ref # Article says Source says Ref supports?
1a "Maiagizis - Ignace Tonené, - Nias. - 1840 or 1841 - Lake Temagami - Temagami First Nation - British settlers - Upper Canada - eldest son - François Kabimigwune and Marian". No mention of Brit settlers. Mostly.
1b "From 1857 - Hudson's Bay Company - delivering mail between its trading posts at Lake Timiskaming and Lake Temagami - Fort Témiscamingue - likely learned French". Truncated. Yes.
1c "1868 - elected successor of father - Deputy Chief (anike ogima) - head chief in 1878" "Tonené was elected to succeed his father as second chief (anike ogima) of the band about 1868 and he became head chief in 1878" Yes; poss c-p issue.
1d "First Nations surrounding Lake Huron, Tonené's community were not party to the Robinson Treaties" Much more detailed Yes.
1e "Tonené advocated for redress and support for his people" Sums up an entire para. Yes.
1f Re. Skene Ditto below Yes.
1g A quote re. lumber and furs. Correctly cited. Yes.
1h "Canadian Prime Minister John A. Macdonald deferred the matter to the Ontario Premier, but in 1883, the Department of Indian Affairs agreed to an annual payment to the nation. The payments were comparable to the amounts received by other First Nations who were parties to Robinson Huron Treaty. In 1884, Tonené convened a tribal council on Bear Island to discuss the potential location for the reserve; the community agreed it should be about 100 square miles surrounding Cross Lake and at the south end of Lake Temagam" Sums up a much longer para also dealing with hostility to native land. Yes.
1i 1888 - chiefdom ended - moved his family to between Lake Opasatica and Lake Dasserat near Abitibi Quebec. In 1889, he travelled to Bear Island to meet Indian agent Thomas Walton and ask for seeds and farming equipment for his community No mention of Thos Walton, but nothing this is double cited. Yes.
1j "Tonené hunted and trapped to feed his family, and in 1903 starting prospecting, motivated by the recent silver discovery at Cobalt, Ontario" Sums up short para in one line. Yes.
1k "He discovered gold at McGarry that later became the Kerr-Addison mine, and staked at least one claim there which was subsequently stolen from him by white settlers" Sums up short para in one line. Yes (perhaps link Claim jumper while yer at it)
1l "The Tonene Old Indian Mining Company issued a prospectus just prior to the start of World War I, but sources do not indicate if Tonené was affiliated or benefited from the company" "a prospectus was issued for the Tonene Old Indian Mining Company"; "whether Tonené benefited is unclear." The first is just the same two points swapped around; but I admit I'm not sure you could repeat something as basic without closely paraphrasing. But re, the second point, the sources query whether T. benefitted by makes to comment as T.'s affiliation (or not).
1m "Tonené succeeded as head chief by John Paul- continued to hunt and trap - Abitibi country - 1893 death of John Paul - Tonené again head chief - from 1910 honorary or life chief - primary advisor to - his younger brother Frank White Bear. Sums up the section. Yes.
1n "1860 - Tonené married Angèle - daughter of former Temagami band chief Nebenegwune - two sons two daughters - died in childbirth in 1869 - 1871 - Tonené married Elisabeth Pikossekat - Timiskaming band - had three daughters" Supports everything exc. "2 sons/2 daus", but some quite clever maths allows that conclusion to be drawn without verging into OR. Yes.
1o "Both of Tonené's sons died before adulthood, although his five daughters all lived into adulthood, married and had children" Relates to the previous point. Yes.
1p "Tonené died on March 15, 1916, near Lake Abitibi, Quebec" First para. Yes.
1q "buried close to Mount Kanasuta, Quebec near the Quebec–Ontario border." "buried near Mont Kanasuta on the Quebec-Ontario boundary." Not sure how else this could be phrased, tbh.
3 "The treaties were two 1850 formal agreements between Ojibwa chiefs and the Crown in which chiefs relinquished land in exchange for an immediate and ongoing financial payments" Summed in 6th para. Yes.
4 "He advocated to federal Indian agent Charles Skene for the provision of an annuity payment and the creation of reserve" "Historical records of Skene s letters to his superior at the Department of Indian Affairs, L. Vankoughnet, describe his meetings with Tonene..." Yes (most of p.212).
5a "Ontario Premier Oliver Mowat - reputation for hostility towards to Indigenous treaty rights - blocked the land transfer - primarily concerned about the value of the white pine - lumber at the location" "Tonene wrote a series of letters to both the provincial and federal governments, but to no avail. Liberal premier Oliver Mowat was extremely hostile to Tonene and his advocacy". Almost - mention of (red and) white pine and lumber on the next page?
5b "His successful finds of gold instigated the Larder Lake gold rush of 1906, according to the Canadian Mining Journal." "The Canadian Mining Journal credited Tonene with launching the 1906 Larder Lake gold rush" Yes.
5c "His successful finds of gold instigated the Larder Lake gold rush of 1906, according to the Canadian Mining Journal." "Tonene’s stolen claims eventually led to the founding of the Kerr-Addison Mine, one of the richest gold mines in Canadian history." More or less, although the order is swapped about?
5d "The location of his burial was later turned into a gravel pit and then a community dump" "the land where he was buried was later turned into a gravel pit, and then a community dump" Bit close! But, again, its effectively a list of nouns.
6 "the lake south of Bear Lake and north of Larder Lake was officially renamed as" Sourced to an image (map). Yes.
7 "the lake south of Bear Lake and north of Larder Lake was officially renamed as" Sourced to an image (map). Yes.
  • I have been unable to source Hodgins/Benedickson )#2), and I suspect that SchroCat's suggestion of AgF suffices. I wouldn't usually, considering the number of text/source integrity, and para-phrasing issues Mike found. But the amount of rewriting that has taken place to reduce those errors—note I have examined 25 out of 32 citations and found minimal problems, I feel confident that the single print source unavailable to me would likely be much different.
    Personally, I'd feel comfortable passing this review as long as we are happy with the reliance on a such a small number of sources. If we are, I don't think we have anything longer to complain about the prose. IMHO, of course. SN54129 17:52, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you. I very much appreciate the fast response and the diligence and pragmatism of the comments. I've made the two changes suggested (pp and archive). Noting the reliance on Hodgins' work, just to note that he was a PhD chair of a university's history department and the Dictionary of Canadian Biography was published by the University of Toronto and Laval University. I consider the reliability of him as a source to be at the top end of the spectrum. The second source that he is heavily involved in was published by the University of Toronto Press.
    Bruce Hodgins new Wikipedia article
    If I should make any edits in response to comment in the table, I will do so immediately. This is my first FA review, so I don't know the rules or customs, so I won't take any action unless someone indicates that I should. CT55555(talk) 19:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @CT55555: just to clarify, but questioning of Hodgins as a source is not questioning either his notability or reliability, but, rather, that if one uses only one source, then one is in more danger of suggestions of (albeit unconscious) plagiarism. This is because, even if one changes the words, it is impossible to change the ideas behind them. Luckily, I don't think we're at that stage here. There's a couple of tweaks you should make per the last column of the table. @Gog the Mild and Gog: I went through the databases and, while there appeared a fair amount on Canadian First Nations, combined with the individual himself, brought the results crashing down. This suggests to me that most of what is on Tonené has been used, and what else I found would be undue in his personal bio. So to answer your question, if CT55555 deals with the minor points highlighted, I'd be happy, personally, to pass this source review. SN54129 12:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. That is helpful. And also clarifies that I should make minor edits in response to the table, so I'll do that in the next hour or so. CT55555(talk) 13:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Serial Number 54129, I have now acted on the feedback presented in the table above. I've made each fix a separate edit with edit summaries linking to the reference numbers. CT55555(talk) 14:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks SN, nicely done and nicely summarised. But now I need to press you: are you happy with the reliance on a such a small number of sources? @Buidhe, Heartfox, Mike Christie, and SchroCat: as you have reviewed the article I would be grateful for your opinions on this single, narrow point. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:53, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There has been a wealth of new scholarship regarding Indigenous peoples in Canada over the past few years, but in my experience it seems to be focused on the West and not northern Ontario/Quebec. The reliance on a small number of sources seems to be out of the nominator's control. It is likely that more will become available in the coming decades. Heartfox (talk) 19:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck my oppose on sourcing above; SN, thanks for the thorough re-review. Gog, I tend to agree with Heartfox that this is probably all there is, and my own partial searches during the source review tend to confirm that. I think Guerillero's question deserves an answer though, so I'll wait for that before reinstating my support on content. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:06, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Gog, per request I've taken a look at this. Not seeing really anything else that can be added that I'd consider to be high-quality RS. Herman the Archdeacon (promoted in 2022) and Viatkogorgon is pretty much based on a single author plus one pair of co-authors, so narrow reliance is okay IMO if that's truly all there is. But Wikipedia:Featured article review/Cincinnati, Lebanon and Northern Railway/archive2 is a counter-point for when something is too far. Hog Farm Talk 03:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to register my discomfort with this article in regards to 1b and 1c. The leade, personal life and legacy sections all feel bare. If there is a Dictionary of Canadian Biography entry there should be more sourcing out there. What work was done to make sure that these 7 digital sources are all there is? --Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:54, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your concern. I suspect this is a reflection on the extent to which the lives of Indigenous peoples was under reported. Work done to make sure these sources are all there is: For what it's work, I'm an editor that people seek help from when trying to expand articles and I have a track record of finding sources that others don't find. I do that by searching for all combinations of names, and unique identifiers on Google, Google News, ProQuest, Wikipedia Library, Google Books. This FA process did identify a book that was missing and I learned something from that. So I can only say that in creating this article I searched far and wide and would be surprised if I missed something. If anyone has any suggestions on more I could do, I welcome it and will investigate it. I'm determined that we all know as much about Tonené as possible, and I have done every action I can think of to maximise that. CT55555(talk) 22:08, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Further to my comment, after writing it I realised that perhaps the Dictionary of Canadian Biography citations themselves would give clues.
I'm working through them and have found so far one source that confirms the translation of his name. https://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2016/rncan-nrcan/M46-70-eng.pdf
I'll update if I find more. CT55555(talk) 22:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I withdraw my objection -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 16:13, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it’s probably OK. I’ve done searches through a couple of general sources, but have found nothing additional. Many of the references on the DCB are primary, which makes them awkward to use freely, and given the paucity of sources, I think the article is ok for FA. - SchroCat (talk) 22:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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