Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Insane Clown Posse/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 08:03, 9 August 2008 [1].

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Insane Clown Posse

Nominator(s): Ibaranoff24

previous FAC (00:46, 7 June 2008)

Much work has been done on the article during and following the previous FAC, thanks to the help of several copyeditors and a peer review, and I think that the article is finally up to standards. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 21:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC))

Restart, old nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Too many refs in the lead. A well written lead is a summary and as such will need few, if any, refs. Refs should normally be in the body. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 02:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC))

Oppose - My prior round of concerns was handled before the restart, but I'm finding too many problems to recommend promotion for now. These are all from Major releases (1995–1997), picking up where I left off.

• "MTV. MTV..." To avoid repetition, try using "The channel" or "The network".
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• Fifth paragraph of section: Another occurance of "nation wide".
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• "and Bruce even told his mother to quit her job because he would pay for her." I'm not sure what this means. My guess is that this should be "pay her expenses."
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• "The duo had 2 months off" Numbers below 10 are usually spelled out.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• Is it necessary to give their full names with their announcing personas on the wrestling tapes? I think their last names would be sufficient.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• "Insane Clown Posse vs. The Chicken Boys" I would think vs. should be spelled out as versus.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• "Once instead" This is incorrect and should be "Once inside".
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• "The kid, who later turned out to be Eminem," Wasn't it Eminem from the beginning? This badly needs rewording.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• "The poster also said" Also isn't needed here.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• "and the group was officially over" Is it common to say that groups that are splitting are "over"? If not, use splitting or disbanding.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• "after allegedly striking an audience member thirty times" Numbers above nine are typically not spelled out, though some editors like doing so for round numbers like this.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• The Waffle House incident has two misspellings of customer.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

This still needs more cleaning up to be worthy in my view. I know this has been copy-edited heavily already, but I shouldn't be finding this many simple mistakes in one section during a third FAC. Keep working at it, take care of these and seek out more help to raise this to the required standard. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• • All of those mistakes were done by me. I posted the edits, then I was unable to double check them due to Wikipedia not working until about 30 minutes ago. Any other concerns and I will be sure to fix them. Juggalobrink (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm still finding some simple errors, so my oppose stands. You missed one above, so take care of that. Here are more comments, starting from the same section.

• You delinked Eminem in one of your changes. He should be linked at first use.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
• "Back home, Insane Clown Posse were living their dreams." I think this should be "Back home, the members of Insane Clown Posse were living their dreams." Using their real names would work too. It's awkward at the present time, especially when reading what follows it.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
• "explained that they couldn't work things out with Brian" Contractions are avoided unless they are part of a quote.

• Missed this one. Giants2008 (17-14) 17:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Bruce and Utsler pleaded guilty to the misdemeanor disorderly conduct charges" We don't know about the charges at this point, meaning this word is not needed.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
• This paragraph states that the other bands were involved in the Waffle House fight twice. Maybe some minor revamping would be helpful.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
• Mainstream success (1998–1999): "later cancelled the last two weeks worth of dates" Should be weeks'.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
• Comma after The Amazing Jeckel Brothers.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
• I would split the reviews of the album above into two sentences, since the sentence is currently very long. The quotes would make nice sentences on their own.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
    • I believe you misunderstood my advice. Instead of splitting into two paragraphs, I would have rather seen the Erlewine and Rolling Stone reviews each be their own sentence. Giants2008 (17-14) 17:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
• "and it has been certified platinum by the RIAA" This word doesn't flow well with the preceding text.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
• Next sentence has two portrayeds. Try switching one to played.
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
    • Now both are played. Either are fine, but I'm worried about the repetition. Giants2008 (17-14) 17:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
• "a three-day music festival games, seminars, contests..." A connecting word appears to be missing. Is with supposed to be here?
  • Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))
• One more note before I go: Two links (currently refs 55 and 56) are showing up as dead on the link checker tool. These are both used to cite the Robida incident, which needs quality references, even if they aren't on the Internet. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Replaced citations. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC))

Let's wrap up my series of comments. Time for the third and final round (this one is much shorter).

• "Independent releases (2000–present): "which was the first 3-D film filmed in high-definition video." Film and filmed back-to-back; again repetitive. How about "which was the first 3-D film shot in high-definition video."
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
• "Robida was shot twice in the head during the shootout with the police and later died in hospital." Change to "in the hospital."
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
• Style and influences: "while Bruce has expressed admiration for both Pearl Jam and Michael Jackson." Once more, removing the struck word will make the writing tighter.
  • Done. Juggalobrink (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The last part of the article is a definite improvement. I left a few notes above about prior comments. Sorry for being so picky, but these small prose improvements always make a big difference in the end. That's all from me.}} Giants2008 (17-14) 17:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere between Neutral and Very Weak Support - Most of the article is now good, but Mainstream success has received a large expansion since my reviews above, and the new parts are in rough shape. Here are a few quick examples: I've never heard Vince McMahon be called Vincent K. McMahon. "Their deal was that WWF play an Insane Clown Posse commercial once or twice a month, and they would wrestler for free." Multiple grammar mistakes. "Insulted, Bruce exclaimed that nobody was going to try and tell him to change his music again" Are the italics necessary? I feel like this section is on a different page. Other than that, it's OK. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment Support The page is very strong on content and context, and I found it a very intersting and engaging read. Copy editor needed though. I'd be leading towards a weak support, and I'd guess about an hour ce'ing would bring it over the line. ( Ceoil ^sláinte 23:13, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Wackymacs below; article reads much better now, and as I said befor the content is very strong. I delinked a few non full dates, but more low value blue links could be taken out. ( Ceoil ^sláinte 19:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Comment — Gmazeroff has finished copyediting the article. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 17:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC))

Comment - The issues I highlighted at the last FAC have been resolved. This article is well-written and uses reliable sources throughout. There are three things which can be improved now. Reduce the number of sub-headings to make each section a little bit longer. There is no need to link months/years on their own (or full dates, for that matter). I have noticed a couple of words which do not need to be linked, such as "lawsuit", "photo shoot", "feud", "diabetic", "dreadlocks"—all of those are obvious and can be easily understood by a young reader, so please go through the article and weed these out. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 18:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments - Much better, but I see things that need fixing at the top; this indicates the need for further massaging during this nomination process, preferably by another person (we are all alert to different mistakes). Random examples:

• MOS requires "logical" punctuation at the end of quotations (all".).
• Please delink single years (per MOS)!
  • Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 06:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC))
• "In late 1991 the group was investing more money in production than that covered by the returns." --> "... than was covered ...".
  • Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 06:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC))
• They were also unanimous in deciding not to rap openly about Satan, as Esham often did." Is that a "because" as or a "while" as? Ambiguous; and as he often did what? Decided or rapped openly?
  • Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 06:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC))
• "the group decided that it needed a new name as well" - spot three redundant words.
  • Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 06:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC))
• "After ... After".
  • Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 06:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC))
• Sentence structure: "The other members agreed, deciding that they would take on this new genre, new name and, due to the success of their former clown-painted hype man, would also all don face paint." --> "The other members agreed, deciding that they would take on this new genre and name, and would all don face paint due to the success of their former clown-painted hype man." Tony (talk) 02:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 06:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC))

Comment - I have started copyediting this article, there are still redundant words, some overlinking and other issues with the prose. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

* I removed a lot of redundant words and reduced the amount of overlinking considerably. It is now looking much better, but I think the number of sub-headings (hence, shorter sections) are letting this article down. There are a couple sections that are just a short paragraph, and it just doesn't look right. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 09:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• After five weeks at FAC, it's surprising to still find incorrect dashes, dates and ellipses. Date, page and number ranges are separated by endashes; I believe I've corrected them all. For punctuation, the article mixes unspaced emdashes and spaced endashes; please choose one and be consistent. If dates are linked, they should all be linked consistently. When month day, years are linked, month-day combos are also linked so that date preferences work; otherwise, MoS now allows for delinking all dates, but this article is mixing. All of the WP:MOS#Ellipses need attention. I saw some WP:OVERLINKing of common terms (don't most people know what the flu is?). Some citations use page on plural page ranges; others more correctly use pages. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.