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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jacob Gens/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 15:16, 22 July 2017 [1].

Jacob Gens

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Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 17:33, 20 June 2017 (UTC) and User:Renata3[reply]

This article is about... semi-controversial figure from the Holocaust. Gens was the head of the Jewish ghetto in Vilnius who was put in place by the Germans. He is controversial because he believed that by cooperating with the Germans, some Jews could be saved. In the end, he was shot and the ghetto was liquidated. The article is as complete as I could make it, and I've tried to present all views about his activities. Renata's a co-nom because they were incredibly helpful with finding some information and helping to improve the content and other maters. Its had a copy-edit by John, and I hope it's ready for FA status. It's been a while since I've nominated anything, but I should have more nominations coming soon. This article is certainly a change from my usual subjects, but it's also an important subject that needs careful work to ensure balanced coverage. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:33, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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I looked for the horses and bishops but didn't see them. A few comments.

  • I might suggest moving his controversial role in the ghetto to the lede paragraph. It's what he's known for.
  • You are not consistent in your italicization of Judenrat. Or Aktion.
  • Possibly a little more could be said to the effect he was born in the Russian Empire and after WWI, Lithuania was independent.
  • "After the formation of the Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic, Gens was fired from his job." I might toss a "in 1940" after "Republic".
  • " Gens was not on the official payroll, which spared him from deportation from the city." Was the rest of the health department deported then? This is a bit opaque.
  • Probably because the sources are opaque. It's not clear in the sources what happened - they just mention that he wasn't deported because he wasn't on the payroll. I will try to double-check Arad's Ghetto in Flames, but it may or may not have further details. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:00, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have clarified at bit - it was Gens who was in trouble, not the health department. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:08, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After their arrival, Gens remained in charge of the Jewish hospital." the last we heard of him, he had an unregistered job with the health department. Was this it?
  • It isn't clear if there is a job missing in the record or if the job with the health department was in the hospital. Again, I suspect our sources are reconstructing events after the fact from second-hand sources, so there is probably some confusion. The liklyhood of any records from either the hospital or health department surviving are vanishingly slim, given the confusion of the times and the destruction that came later. That is unfortunate, of course, but does tend to make things a bit... confused. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:00, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further research shows that Beinfield is out of synch with the other sources, which state that Gens was appointed to head of the hospital after the Germans arrived, so have changed accordingly. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:08, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure you need a hyphen in "Revisitionist-Zionist"
  • "The smaller ghetto was liquidated " I might more explicitly say what happened to the residents.
  • " the ghetto's rabbis, who argued " I might use "ruled". They would have been regarded as the final authority on Jewish law, ordinarily.
  • Dawidowicz says that "the rabbis sent a delegation to tell him [Gens] that he was contravening Jewish law. To support their position, they cited Maimonides. Gens, who knew little, if anything, of Jewish law, responded that it was justifiable to surrender a part if the others would thereby be saved." I can't quite see this as supporting "ruled". Ealdgyth - Talk 15:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gens was afraid that the actions of the Germans would result in a widespread massacre." Maybe "Gens was afraid the Germans would kill all of the Jews in the ghetto, and sought to save some at the price of others" if the source will justify.
  • Source says "German and Lithuanian united invaded then unexpectedly the ghetto and Gens feared that the snatching of people in the streets would end in a general massacre." Ealdgyth - Talk 15:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • He persuaded the Gestapo man in charge of the roundup to let the Jewish police gather together the deportees during the late-1941 deportations" Possibly "He persuaded the Gestapo officer in charge of the late-1941 roundup to let the Jewish police secure the deportees" or similar. I'm trying to avoid the near-repetition.
  • "In an Aktion on 3–5 November, where the entire ghetto was checked against their paperwork," Possibly "During the Aktion on 3–5 November, in which the paperwork of everyone in the ghetto was checked".
  • "This incident took place under the supervision of German officials," I might say "gaze" rather than "supervision".
  • "The Germans backed Gens' efforts to secure more power, and implied that he was not responsible to the Judenrat, nor that the Judenrat had any power over Gens or the Jewish policemen." I might change "nor" to "and" and"any" to "no"
  • The Weisskopf anecdote seems a rather minor incident, an intramural squabble that in the grand scheme of things did not matter, since it does not appear anyone was deported or killed. The fact that Gens was in charge of selecting who is to live and who to die, raises the question of did he abuse the power
  • "He was allowed to enter and leave the ghetto at any time and his daughter was not required to live in the ghetto, even though other half-Jews were confined within the ghetto." I might change "within the ghetto" to "there", but also, I would either use or link to from "half-Jews", mischling.
  • "From there they moved to West Germany as Jewish aliyah." Aliyah, when used to refer to a person outside the context of Jewish synagogue ritual, is usually in reference to immigration to Israel by a Jew. They would not have been regarded as Jewish, I suspect.
  • They stretched the definitions of "Jewish" and "Polish" to get the necessary papers to be allowed across the Iron Curtain. Did they meet the technical definition of "aliyah", I don't know, but that's how they got across the border. Renata (talk) 19:32, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can I ask, if you have it handy, for how the source refers to this? I'm just trying to figure a better phrasing. Aliyah is the single form of the noun anyway. The female plural is "aliyot" (I would not change it immediately).--Wehwalt (talk) 23:43, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll address this quickly and will work on the rest of these comments tomorrow. Gens himself is not singled out by historians as a particularly "bad" person, but the Judenrats as a whole are controversial. Raoul Hilberg, in particular, saw all the members of any Judenrat as collaborators and that they prevented active resistance to the Germans. Since Hilberg, there has been much more of a swing in historical thought to the fact that resistance came in other varieties than just armed uprisings (the only kind Hilberg recognized) and recognition of the fact that the Judenrat (as well as the Jews as a whole) didn't really have any choices, much less good choices. There has been a definite swing away from the idea that the Jews just passively acquised in their murder (or in Hoess' opinion, were just like sheep to a slaughterhouse). And the play that is about Vilnius, casts him in a rather negative light. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:00, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be clearer (and more concise), the role of member of the Judenrat or head of the Jewish police is considered controversial, thus why I wrote that in my nomination statement. There isn't nearly as much written specifically on Gens as an individual that sees him as controversial beyond the norm for the positions he held. He certainly is not considered as difficult as Chaim Rumkowski, but he's not nearly as "sainted" as Adam Czerniakow. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I might put in a little bit about how they in general have been regarded, then. As you point out, it is controversial. I'm not sure a play does it, after all, it's not a historical paper. If these favorable opinions of Gens are fruit of a reaction against a hard-line position, than I don't think it's a bad idea to mention what that position is.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:43, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Look over the introductory bits I've added. I'll add that even the worst critics of the councils don't generally think Gens was as corrupt as Rumkowski. I'll leave the aliyah bit for a while longer, but if @Renata3: doesn't have something within a reasonable time period, I'll just cut phrase, and leave in that they did go to West Germany. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:45, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Midnightblueowl

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Very interesting article; thanks for bringing it this far. Just a few points. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:51, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm surprised that the term "Ashkenazi" makes no appearance in this article. Do we have any sources that could be used to bring in Gens' ethnicity in the article? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've seen nothing that gives his ethnic background. It's pretty clear that he was not really a very religiously observant person nor that he came from an observant family, but that can only be inferred from the lack of information on he and the family doing religious things. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His father was a merchant and Gens was the oldest of four sons. Gens attended a Russian-language primary school and then a secondary school in Šiauliai.[2]" I appreciate that both sentences are likely bolstered by the same source, but both sentences are saying quite different things and it can give the appearance that the first sentence is simply unreferenced. For that reason I would definitely duplicate that citation at the end of both sentences. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:51, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "mood." and that" - best be rid of that full stop. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:51, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, I left it, but rephrased "Dr. N. Karni, who was a cadet with Gens, said that he "had great personal charm. I do not remember him ever being in a bad mood." Karni also felt Gens had "leadership qualities..." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His participation in the" - the His could be read as a reference to Karni, rather than Gens, so I would change "His" to "Gens'" (and accordingly replace the later "Gens" to "his"). Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:51, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed.
  • "He belonged to Brith ha-Hayal, an organization for military reservists" - perhaps "He belonged to Brith ha-Hayal, a Jewish organization for military reservists"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gens was fired from his job." - do we know why? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not the exact reason, no. I'd assume that it was because he was a Lithuanian nationalist and army reservist, but it is never explicitly stated as such in the sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Germans entered Vilnius" - perhaps make it clear that this was the German Army. And perhaps add a bit more about this being part of World War 2. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Germans murdered" - semantic quibble on what is a very sensitive subject (so apologies upfront), but would "killed" be more appropriate here? "Murdered" implies a sense of illegality, and I'm not sure if this act was technically illegal under German law in this period? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Since many Germans were convicted for crimes against humanity after the war for their participation in the Holocaust, I'm pretty comfortable with "murdered" here (and elsewhere). The legal morass of whether German law was actually legally binding during Hitler's rule (especially those parts where Hitler simply ruled by decree or worse, did not issue a decree but still ordered something done) is bad enough, but then you get into the whole problem of that morass of legal issues being applied to conquered territory and the "laws of war". In general, most historians of the Holocaust have no problem with using "murdered" to refer to the killing of Jews (and others) during the Holocaust. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for a Nazi-period ghetto" - this is the first time that the Nazis have been mentioned in any form, so perhaps it would be best to introduce them briefly beforehand, for instance when mentioning the German invasion. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • In general, I've followed recent historians of the Holocaust who generally use "Germans" rather than "Nazis" to refer to those people who were perpetrators of the Holocaust. Here, we're not referring to the period, but the time, so we can stick with "Nazi-era" or we can just go with "an unusual arrangement for a ghetto during World War II", which ever you prefer. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • More forthcoming (and ping me in a week if I've forgotten). Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to add my Support! Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:15, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Support on prose Comments by Finetooth

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A very interesting if disturbing read. I'm leaning toward support, but I have a short list of minor suggestions mostly related to prose and style.
General
  • The 10-digit ISBNs should be converted to 13 digits. A converter lives here.
  • Ah, you may be right. During a recent FAC, I was asked by another editor to change the 10s to 13s, and I assumed that was now the case with all FAs. (Years had passed between my last FA nom and this recent one). The change seemed to me to have no downside. Is there a good reason not to convert them? I ask this partly because since the nom in question, I've been converting the 10s in my other FAs as well as elsewhere when I have time. Finetooth (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The two images need alt text.
  • Per Niki's comments above, I've removed the plaque image, so it's down to one image. I'm not sure that I can improve on the caption for alt text - suggestions? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:24, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • ¶1 "Dr. N. Karni" – Rather than the academic title, "Dr.", can he be identified as "N. Karni, a physician" or something like that? Or is the title necessary or meaningful at all in this context?
Aktions of 1941
  • ¶2 "with Gens pulling aside the third child" – Replace "with plus -ing" construction with "and Gens pulled aside the third child"?
  • ¶4 "when survivors began arriving back in the ghetto..." – Trim by one word? "returning to" rather than "arriving back in"?
  • ¶4 "all of them female" – If they were all adults, I'd prefer "women" to "female". Female often sounds slightly dehumanizing to me even when that's not the speaker's (writer's) conscious intent.
Relations with the Judenrat
  • ¶3 "Previous to this... ". – Trim by one word to "Before this..."?
  • ¶3 "Previous to this, justice was administered solely by Gens and his policemen, and still retained some judicial functions over injuries to policemen, escapes from the jail, or leaving the ghetto without leave." – I find this confusing. Should the second part of the sentence say, "after this, Gens' department still retained some judicial functions over injuries to policemen, escapes from the jail, or leaving the ghetto without leave."?
  • ¶3 "The Jewish police force was accused by some residents of taking bribes at the gates leading into the ghetto." – Flip to active voice: "Some residents accused the Jewish police force of taking bribes at the gates leading into the ghetto."?
  • ¶4 "Weisskopf's house was then searched by the ghetto police and when contraband was found, the tailor was arrested, held in jail for four days, and lost his position running the workshop." – Flip to active voice? "The ghetto police then searched Weisskopf's house, found contraband, arrested him, and jailed him for four days, after which he lost his position running the workshop."
Views and policies
  • ¶1 "His leadership style is described by historian Michael Marrus... " – Flip to active voice: "Historian Michael Marrus describes... "?
  • ¶1 "bringing together some of the community leaders for a colloquia to discuss Jewish history..." – Either "a colloquium" or "colloquia" with no "a" before it.
Welfare and cultural efforts
  • ¶1 "in charge of supervising employers who utilized children" – "Used", a good four-letter word, rather than "utilized"?
  • ¶2 "property they left with gentiles outside the ghetto..." – Link gentiles?
Personal privileges and family
  • "One was that he was not required to wear the yellow badge... " – Tighten by deleting "One was that"?
Death
  • ¶1 "The Gestapo said that he was killed for being in contact with the FPO and funneling money to them." – Since Gens had to be in contact with the FPO to funnel money to them, shorten to "The Gestapo said they killed him for funneling money to the FPO."?
  • ¶2 "The ghetto was liquidated between 22 and 24 September 1943,[21] with 3,600 residents going to labor camps (including 2,000 sent to labor camps in Vilnius), 5,000 women and children going to Majdanek where they were gassed to death, and a few hundred elderly and sick were sent to Ponary and shot." – Non-parallel construction. Delete "were" from "elderly and sick were sent to Ponary". Or, perhaps better, split the complicated sentence: "The ghetto was liquidated between 22 and 24 September 1943. Three thousand six hundred residents went to labor camps (including 2,000 sent to labor camps in Vilnius); 5,000 women and children went to Majdanek, where they were gassed to death; and a few hundred elderly and sick were sent to Ponary and shot."
  • ¶3 "They were informed by a Jewish policeman that Gens had been shot and that the Gestapo was looking for them." – Flip to active voice: "A Jewish policeman informed them that... "?
  • ¶3 "In 1945, they managed to obtain papers..." – Trim to "In 1945, they obtained papers..."? This change would eliminate the repetition of "managed to".
Legacy
  • ¶1 "The role of the Judenrats has been a controversial one." – Tighten to "The role of the Judenrats has been controversial."?
  • ¶1 "... they faced conflicting sets of goals and that had essentially no power to change the demands the Germans made of them." – Something's amiss. Perhaps "... they faced conflicting sets of goals and had essentially no power to change the demands the Germans made of them."?
  • All looks good. I leave the two open questions about ISBNs and alt text to your discretion, though I would appreciate knowing your thoughts about converting 10s to 13s. Happy to support on prose, as noted above. Finetooth (talk) 21:15, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

support by auntieruth

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This is superb, and yes, it's necessary to seek some balance about this controversial man. I agree with finetooth's comments (above). And I'll reread after you've finished addressing the unfinished ones. In the meantime, I also have a couple of questions:

  • why is "unregistered" (as in unregistered job) in quotes? Is this simply an off the books job? a black market job? why cannot it just be unregistered?
  • second, I hiccuped on the word "illegals" in one of the notes. Could you clarify this but not use the word "illegals" (or the quotes)? Undocumented probably isn't sufficient, but .... auntieruth (talk) 20:55, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • The sentence the footnote is attached to defines the "illegals". I can remove the quotes, but the term is pretty common in the sources for ghetto residents without work permits/papers/etc. I'll go ahead and remove the quotes, but the alternatives are much more wordy ... i.e. "residents without work permits". Ealdgyth - Talk 14:32, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • given how common the term is today to refer to people present in a state space illegally, I'd be inclined to say residents without work permits....
  • I'll check this in a minute but given normal German procedures, I'm guessing the quotes were in the original and they really mean "pursued to Ponary on foot at a too-fast pace while being beaten and shot and abused"... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, it's "chased" in the source. I've removed the quote marks because there really isn't a better word to use for what would have happened. I could use "driven" but that might lead to confusion with readers thinking they were taken in vehicles, when they weren't. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:07, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen both of ya'lls comments but am out of town until Wednesday night, so I'll get to these Thursday morning. Happy Fourth of July! Ealdgyth - Talk 21:11, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And think I've got them all. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:32, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Johnbod

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  • I haven't read all the others, so may conflict. Anyway:
  • " He married a non-Jew and worked at several jobs, including teaching, accountancy, and as an administrator." Rather awkward grammatical twist. "worked at several jobs, including as a teacher, accountant, and an administrator." maybe.
  • "He was sent to officers' school and completed the schooling as a junior lieutenant" - officers usually get trained not schooled - also avoids near-repetition.
  • "In May 1942, Gens secured German permission for residents of the ghetto to sell belongings or property they left with gentiles outside the ghetto." gentiles used and linked, but we have had 2 "non-Jewish" unlinked before. I suppose that is ok.
  • "Gens started a theater in the ghetto, which was the site of poetry readings as well as the production of new and old plays." site is a bit odd to me - "where .... took place" or something might be better.
  • I wonder if "Legacy" is the right word for the last section (except for the play). "Historians' analysis" or something maybe. I'd be tempted to move the historians higher up, maybe even some into the lead.
  • Grim stuff, but a fine article. Johnbod (talk) 20:42, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pretty much; happy to Support Johnbod (talk) 14:38, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Cas Liber

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  • References formatted consistently.
  • Why the entry in the further reading section?
  • Earwigs copyvio clear.
  • FN 59. material is cited and faithful to source.
  • FN 221. material is cited and faithful to source.
  • FN 70. material is cited and faithful to source.
  • FN 73. material is cited and faithful to source.
  • FN 77. material is cited and faithful to source.

Spot check ok. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:09, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mainly because it's one of the few other entries for him. It doesn't add anything, but it does corroborate the information here. I'd rather cover my behind by having it listed to show I did consult it, than not. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:24, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Cas, are you signing off on source reliability too? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:08, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - they look good/reliable Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:58, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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