Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/James A. Ryder/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 29 February 2020 [1].

James A. Ryder

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 14:14, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a 19th-century Jesuit who was president of three universities four times. He was a major figure in Jesuit academia in the United States, helping start up two of the universities. Another in my series of Jesuit academic leaders. Ergo Sum 14:14, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Coffeeandcrumbs

Please note I will be claiming this review in WikiCup. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:42, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will do a full review soon. In the meantime...

You haven't used O'Neill & Williams 2003. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:00, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Coffeeandcrumbs: Fixed. There was a good tidbit in there that I added to the article. Ergo Sum 23:43, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Coffeeandcrumbs: Have you had an opportunity to revisit the article? Ergo Sum 19:29, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"and became a good friend..." would be better as a new sentence
- Done. Ergo Sum 22:51, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"later becoming Pope Pius IX" → "who later became Pope Pius IX"
- Rephrased slightly so as to avoid two "became"s. Ergo Sum 22:51, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"part of 1828 in Orvieto" would be better as "part of 1828 teaching in Orvieto" --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:42, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Ergo Sum 22:52, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
probably a good idea not to say "1830" twice
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 17:18, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"which eventually resulted" is strange. His appointment was not the cause. His inaction was the cause.
- Rephrased. Ergo Sum 17:19, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"HIs"
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 17:19, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Per MOS:HONORIFIC, please do not use honorifics like "Fr."--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:16, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 17:21, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"council fathers who gathered" would be easier reading
- Rephrased. Ergo Sum 00:28, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Georgetown and Society of Jesus are linked twice. So is Thomas F. Mulledy but I can see at least that is useful.
- Removed the redundant links. Ergo Sum 00:30, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"republicanism"; I think you should something from p. 35 or p. 24 of Kuzniewski 2014, to explain that, by saying "American in attitude", Roothaan was referring to republicanism
- Isn't that already what the sentence says? His American attitude was support of republicanism. Ergo Sum 00:31, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Ergo Sum: Yes, but Kuzniewski p. 33 does not mention "republicanism". I was asking that you add either p. 35, or p. 24, to cover republicanism. I maybe over-thinking it though so feel free to ignore. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:20, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - Fair enough, that's a good point. I've added a citation to p. 35. Ergo Sum 04:54, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #24 should be inside the parenthesis
- Done. Ergo Sum 00:33, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think the supposedly/purportedly inappropriate relationship with a woman needs to be mentioned somehow along with his visit to Rome in 1945 because of it
- Both of those things are mentioned in the first sentence of the College of the Holy Cross section. Ergo Sum 00:34, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"in the streets of Washington"
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 00:34, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Such anti-Catholic aggression" would be beneficial--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:16, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Added. Ergo Sum 00:35, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Do you have any other comments working their way through the pipeline? Ergo Sum 03:04, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think I need another few days to finish up. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:30, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"struck" has several meanings; I got stuck reading that sentence. May I suggest "signed" or "completed" or "agreed to" or "approved"
- "Strike a deal" is a fairly common phrase. I don't know if it will cause that much confusion. Ergo Sum 14:06, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Presidents of the College of the Holy Cross
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 14:07, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am fairly certain there is no apostrophe in "Willing's Alley". What a coincidence? I just started the article Elizabeth Willing Powel a few days ago. (See this possibly usable source to expand on how he "assisted in the founding of Saint Joseph's College" and the proper spelling of Willings Alley)
- I've seen some older source that include the apostrophe, but near all modern ones omit it. Therefore, I've removed the apostrophe. Ergo Sum 14:09, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Coffeeandcrumbs: I've also incorporated that reference. I didn't find anything about Ryder's contribution to Saint Joseph's, but there was a useful line about his preaching while president of Georgetown. Ergo Sum 14:23, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is it for me. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 06:01, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

I am also going to do a simultaneous source review:

"professorship in philosophy and theology at Georgetown"; Curran 1993, p. 109, says "to teach theology and sacred scripture"; is this the same thing as "philosophy"? Is there another source that says philosophy? Because p. 65 of Easby-Smith 1907 only mentions "theology".
- The last sentence of the second paragraph on page 109 of Curran explains that at Georgetown, he taught philosophy and theology. The teaching of sacred scripture refers to when he was in Spoleto. Ergo Sum 00:48, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"named the prefect of studies" is on p. 65 of Easby-Smith 1907, not on p. 88
- The ref I actually meant to cite to was Easby-Smith p. 89. Fixed it. Ergo Sum 00:52, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"minister and admonitor" is on p. 19 of Kuzniewski 2014--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:16, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 00:53, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Eccleston admiration of Ryder's preaching bleeds into p. 34 of Kuzniewski 2014. You might as well move the ref to the end of the sentence.
- Done. Ergo Sum 00:55, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Since you only reference Croce 2017 on p. 14–15, it would be helpful to add #page=14 to the URL like this--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:00, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure. Done. Ergo Sum 00:56, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You also need p. 79 of Easby-Smith 1907 for "Twice during his presidency were stones thrown... "--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:16, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Ergo Sum 00:57, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 34 does not appear to function. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:30, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- That seems to be a problem with the website the template links to. Since it is a fairly large website, I imagine this is a temporary problem that should be resolved rather soon. Ergo Sum 03:54, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I decided to remove that ref altogether, since it really wasn't helpful. Ergo Sum 14:26, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:James_A._Ryder_biretta.jpg: what steps have you taken to verify this was unpublished? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:51, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I have done a reverse Google search for the image, to see other places it has been used. I've tried to look for a publication date for the webpage; the only hits I get are through Carbon Dating the Web, which estimates the date of its creation in 2018. I have looked in all of the relevant books that I know of, and find no instance of the image. This would be consistent with many of the archival images published online by the Georgetown Archives, which did not start publishing old images until the late 2000s. Ergo Sum 23:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

Unfortunately not much attention in over two weeks here -- I'll list in the Urgents but if we don't see more activity in the next week I think we'll have to archive. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:28, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ian, I might have a look if you hold for a few days. Ceoil (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil

Leaning support. My quibbles;

He oversaw the establishment of the Georgetown College Observatory in 1842, which was undertaken by James Curle. State the role Curle undertook; it was surely not the re-establishment of the observatory.
- Clarified the relationship of Carley to the establishment of the observatory. Ergo Sum 00:36, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the citations seem misplaced, eg "In September 1843,[40]"....to be factious that just cites that there was a September 1843
- I've moved that ref to the end of the sentence. It was just placed there because the other citation for that sentence didn't give the month/year of that event. Ergo Sum 00:37, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A rebellion broke out among the students in 1850. Can you state clearer here why.
- The rest of that paragraph explains how/why it started. I've rephrased slightly to make that clearer. Ergo Sum 00:39, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
held a meeting one day - Sounds 17th century phrasing
- Not quite sure what you mean. "Held a meeting" is pretty common language. Ergo Sum 00:39, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - its the one day phrasing I'm quibbling over. Ceoil (talk) 01:02, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
causing chaos in the dormitory is hopelessly vague and not a little old fashoned
- The source doesn't get any more specific, so I've just removed it. Ergo Sum 00:41, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sentences like Having clashed with Thomas Mulledy during the latter's election as procurator of the Jesuits' Maryland province,[49] Ryder wrote that Ignatius Brocard's decision not to send Mulledy back to the College of the Holy Cross was a welcome one, as Mulledy was greatly disliked at the college.[50] are very hard to parse, as tensions between players are hinted at but not really, fully explained, taking from reader satisfaction. Ceoil (talk) 23:29, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right; that was a poorly written sentence. I've broken it up and streamlined the phrasing. Ergo Sum 00:43, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than say Ryder's oratorical skills brought him to California in 1852, would it be better to clarify that is oratorial skills say him promoted to a position in California in 1852 Ceoil (talk) 01:47, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Rephrased. Ergo Sum 02:47, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ceoil: Do you foresee any other comments on the horizon? Ergo Sum 03:05, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from The Rambling Guy

So as noted, I did the GA review for this, and applied my usual GA+ criteria which hopefully took it to a level easily beyond GA but perhaps not quite FA. So with that disclosure (and that this may form part of my WikiCup entry), here are my thoughts:

Second para of lead might use another "Ryder" instead of five consecutive pronouns.
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"He began his novitiate..." sentence seems quite long, could consider a split after you describe Kenney?
- Split up. Ergo Sum 20:12, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"from Alexandria, Virginia on" comma after Virginia per MOS:GEOCOMMA.
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:13, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"He also spent..." -> "Ryder also..." as the previous "he" was the pope.
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:14, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"up aprofessorship in" is this a neologism?!
- Should have been a space in the middle. Ergo Sum 20:14, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"of which he became its first " this reads just a little odd, I don't think you need "its" (because you already have "of which") so just "the first".
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:15, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"17, 1830, this was the " it was, rather than this was?
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:16, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
" at the College" I'm never entirely clear on capitalisation MOS but shouldn't this just be college?
- I think either can be sustained here. I've made it lowercase. Ergo Sum 20:16, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Ryder's relationship with Washington's politicians was strong. He had a particularly good relationship with" quick repeat of "relationship with" which could use some mixing up.
- Rephrased. Ergo Sum 20:17, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"and Jan Roothaan cited" don't normally need to repeat first names under unambiguous circumstances. Several instances of this...
- Removed a few instances of the first name. Ergo Sum 20:18, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Our article doesn't once hyphenate antebellum.
- Removed. Ergo Sum 20:19, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"He oversaw the ..." -> "Ryder oversaw..."
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:19, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"He voiced support" which "he"?
- Clarified. Ergo Sum 20:19, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Upon his return," Ryder's?
- Yes. Clarified. Ergo Sum 20:20, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"upon" used three times in two sentences, could use a mix again.
- Changed it up. Ergo Sum 20:21, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"in accordance with the orders of the Maryland provincial from 1852 to 1858, Charles Stonestreet, " -> "in accordance with the orders of Charles Stonestreet, the Maryland provincial from 1852 to 1858,"
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:22, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Philadelphia,[59] following a brief illness.[3] " I would just put those refs together at the end, pure aesthetics...
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:23, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 29 needs a pp.
- Done. Ergo Sum 20:23, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's about all I see this time round. Mostly just overt pedantry, but perhaps some of it useful. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 16:53, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: Thanks for your comments. Ergo Sum 20:24, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As ever, a pleasure. Great work, happy to support. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:12, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 12:59, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.