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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John McGraw/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 16 August 2021 [1].

John McGraw

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Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 22:50, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... John McGraw, who not only spent thirty years as manager of the New York Giants baseball team, but before that was one of the legendary Baltimore Orioles of the 1890s, who originated many plays and weren't shy about abusing the umpire to get their way, a characteristic McGraw, despite great success with the Giants, kept through much of his career.

Image review
  • File:John McGraw 1891 Cedar Rapids Canaries.jpg what's the pub date? It's not clear if the scanned document was published or if it was some sort of unpublished document.
Swapped for an image from 1890, provably pre-1925.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:13, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:1896 Baltimore Orioles.jpg How do you know that the first publication was 1956, or is it possible there was an earlier publication?
I've added evidence of pre-1923 publication, justifying the PD tag.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:38, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:1899 Baltimore Orioles.jpg , File:1912 John McGraw by Conlon.jpeg When was the first publication?
Cut the 1899 photo.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:38, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:John McGraw 1924.jpg Why is it PD?
I've changed the license tag.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(t · c) buidhe 00:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please break up the longer sections. "Baltimore years", "Early years (1902–1908)", "Middle years (1909–1920)", "Later years (1921–1931)", "Retirement, death, and posthumous honors" are all way too long especially when browsing on a mobile device. I would also try to break up "Minor leagues" and "Managerial techniques" as too long to comfortably browse on mobile. (t · c) buidhe 03:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've split the ones in the first sentence above. I don't think it's practical to split the other two.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At 11442 words the article probably needs some cutting. (t · c) buidhe 08:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so sure about that. There is a baseball career of over forty years, each year of which needs coverage and can't be lumped together with others.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You could split off sub articles Managerial career of John McGraw and/or Playing career of John McGraw, while retaining just the most important information in this overview. (t · c) buidhe 10:44, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I really think most of this needs to be in the main article. Sub-articles get little traffic. Casey Stengel, another FA about a manager with a similarly long career, is also on the long side.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:01, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've cut some.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:44, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Some articles such as Huey Long were broken up and improved as a result. I think this one also would be improved with a spinoff and application of summary style. (t · c) buidhe 17:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would think you need to have some information on each year of his career, and the end product would not be too much shorter than what is there now. Sub-articles get minimal readership. Thanks for your review and comments. I'll wait and see what other reviewers have to say.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:58, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Buidhe the article has been reduced by about 20 percent.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:11, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Jim

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I'm afraid that a baseball article is pretty much English as a foreign language to me, but here goes

  • who was, for almost thirty years, manager of the New York Giants. —I'd omit the commas, but perhaps that's a BE thing?
  • won three pennants — clearly some sort of championship, but perhapa link?
  • Baltimore chop — defined later, but perhaps indicate that it's a batting technique
  • The instability in Major League Baseball at the turn of the 20th century made McGraw manager of the Orioles at age 26 in 1899 — *Facilitated, rather than made, perhaps.
  • link Union Army, curveball, shortstop and ptomaine poisoning
  • cheaper baseball models, which he used to practice his pitching — I don't understand what this is a model of, and therefore can't see how it helps his pitching
  • the Orioles had planned an exhibition tour of Europe, but it was cancelled over concerns poor weather would preclude too many games — this reads a little oddly to me, applying "preclude" to multiple events. Perhaps lead to the cancellation of...
  • Charles Faust, whom McGraw, who like many of his players was superstitious, allowed to travel with the team — why was this gentleman considered to bring good luck?
I've tried to clarify. It was not unusual at that time for baseball teams to have someone as good-luck charm sit in the dugout. Sometimes they rubbed the person's head, or he might have a disability or other physical challenge (such as a "hunchback") and they would rub it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support now, sorry about delay, I forgot to watchlist and then... forgot Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley

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I've just spotted this nomination and will look in tomorrow with comments. Tim riley talk 22:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not much from me:

  • "John McGraw, Sr.'s first wife died, and he began moving around looking for work" – there is no connection, presumably, but it reads as though the one led to the other.
  • "Olean was located 200 miles from Truxton" – "located" seems superfluous
  • "One strategem used by McGraw" – the OED spells the word "stratagem", but perhaps it is otherwise in AmE.
  • "his preference for players that fit his system" – is "fit" (rather than "fitted") the past tense of "fit" in AmE? Fine if so. Looks odd to an English eye, but what of that!
It's correct as written, not certain about the grammatical point. No doubt you are right, it's ENGVAR.
  • One general point, raised tentatively because I'm not sure I have fully grasped Wikipedia's rules. It looks to me as though your practice for punctuating quotations is not in line with the MoS. For instance I think the full stop should be to the right of the closing quotation marks in McGraw described his new home upon his arrival as "a dirty, dreary, ramshackle sort of place." and Barnie was unimpressed by the short stature of the player he had recruited unseen, but McGraw assured him, "I'm bigger than I look." but I may be wrong.
The MoS states that terminal punctuation may go within the quotation marks if it is present in the original. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:50, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I'm doing. If it's a full sentence, it goes inside.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:44, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's my lot. – Tim riley talk 09:08, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review. It is good to see you back.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:44, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to drag a kipper across the trail over punctuation. Ignore me. Happy not to have met McGraw (whose character you have objectively laid bare) but also happy to support promotion of the article, which seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. Tim riley talk 07:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Sportsfan77777

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The article is way too long. There have been a bunch of long biography vital articles at FAC in the past year that have all been sharply criticized for being well over the recommended prose size limit of 60kb. This biography isn't even officially a vital article, and it's currently at 66.4kb. If Willie Mays, for instance, isn't permitted to have a 60kb article, then John McGraw – a less important figure in the same sport – doesn't warrant an article far above that size either.

In particular, the coverage of McGraw's managerial career seems to be too balanced between the more important and less important years of his career. McGraw managed for about 30 years and only won three World Series. The years where he won something should have more coverage to make it clear that they are more important. Because McGraw had such a long career, there isn't enough space to cover all of the other years where he didn't win the World Series in the amount of detail presently in the article. Some exceptions are okay, such as the year he was hired or some of the pennant years where the Giants didn't win the World Series. But sections like the post-1924 part of his career where he never won a pennant and the paragraph and a half on Merkle's Boner, which the Giants didn't benefit from and is covered in a separate article (that should be linked in this article), are overly drawn out. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sportsfan77777, the article is down to 54.3K, and I've summarized the lean years at the end. Does this address your concerns? (I've also shortened the discussion of 1908 and added the link you suggest).--Wehwalt (talk) 15:27, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review — Pass

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Sources

  • Up to you, although I'm used to the bibliography coming after the citations.
  • Publisher location is missing from most of the sources.
  • Books with subtitles inconsistently have either a space before the colon (e.g., "Genius :") or no space before the colon (e.g., "Games:"). I'd recommend the latter approach.
  • Some publishers are linked, but most aren't. I'd recommend linking all that can be, though consistency is most important.
Fixed, I think.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a difference between "eBook ed." and "Kindle ed."?
There isn't. I've standardized.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What's the point of noting that one is a paperback edition? --Usernameunique (talk) 19:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I physically have that book, and it is the paperback edition.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:05, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Murphy 2007: Should this be "eBook ed." also?

References

  • 24: Page range should have an en dash, not em dash.
  • 46: Ditto.
  • 85: First name is Don, not Dan. Any reason the link links to the notes?
  • 97: Is statmuse reliable? Should it be styled as "statmuse.com", or as just "statmuse"?
Per this, they seem to be significant enough to be considered reliable. It's their business to publish sports information.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 101, 144: Inconsistency in whether "Sports Reference" is given as the publisher.
Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Now #101 doesn't mention Baseball Reference. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:51, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:05, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 154: Retrieval date not needed for printed matter. Page number missing. You could probably get volume/issue numbers from the front page, if you're so inclined.
  • 158: Retrieval date is the same as the archive date. It also isn't needed, since the archive date is the important part.
  • 167: Publisher location missing. Link links to a search, not to an individual page. ISBN not hyphenated. Retrieval date not needed for printed matter. "McFarland & Company" is above (in "Sources") given as "McFarland & Co."—although this could be correct if the front matter of the respective books styles the name inconsistently.
Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 168–178: Most of these have numbers after the name/year, such as "Jaffe 2010, 1971" and "James 1997, 868–876". What are the numbers?
I've noted they are Kindle locations.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:47, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This version looked at. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I completed what Usernameunique wanted, I think. I'm hopeful Jimfbleak will complete their review.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:34, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:50, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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Having promised a review on Wehwalt's talk page, I had to go and re-read the whole article, as previous reviews touched on a few of the things I was going to mention. Here's the few items I found:

  • Minor leagues: "He caught on with a team in Wellsville, New York, a team that played in the Western New York League." There are duplicate "a team"s here which could stand to be trimmed to one usage. Maybe "which played" would work?
  • 1891–1894: "During the offseason, McGraw narrowly avoided being dealt to the woeful Washington Senators when a trade for Duke Farrell." Needs an ending.
  • 1905–1908: "The Giants won, four game to one." "game" → "games". Giants2008 (Talk) 15:42, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Those things are done, Giants2008 Thank you for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:15, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Much obliged, many thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TRM

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Alert: I am not a baseball expert so I will be looking for a lot of explanation of jargon here, minimum links, better still some explanation inline/footnotes as to what many such terms actually mean...

Lead

  • Major League Baseball is overlinked in the lead.
Fixed.
  • And once you explain it and put (MLB) after, just use MLB going forward.
Done, other than one instant where having the initials reads oddly, but I've removed the link there.
  • "third baseman" what's that?
Linked.
  • "the minor leagues" is there a link for this?
Linked.
  • "won three pennants" what's the context here? What "league" or "competition" were these "pennants" for?
Explained in second paragraph.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link umpire.
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "National League" is overlinked in the lead. Isn't that normally abbreviated to NL (like MLB)?
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of the new, American League Orioles" odd comma placement.
  • "American League Orioles." for a non-expert, this seaofblue linking is confusing, I thought that was the name of the team, the "American League Orioles".
I've played around with this. The fact that there were "Baltimore Orioles" in four different leagues in about 15 years requires some disambiguation.
  • "by his disciple" that feels a little strong/POV for an encyclopedia.
Rephrased.
  • Link World Series.
Done.
  • "in that capacity" in what capacity?
Done.
  • "holds the National League record with 31 seasons managed" do you mean a different record here then, longevity rather than victories?
Yes. Clarified.
  • "All-Star Game." link.
Done.

Early years

  • Link pitching.
I'm dubious that elementary baseball terms need to be linked in what is not a beginners-level baseball article, but done.
Not at all. I link elementary association football terms in what are not beginners-level soccer articles (I don't think FA has such a distinction, but whatever). The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "disease took the lives" avoid such euphemisms in an encyclopedia.
FIne.
  • "for broken windows" resulting from?
Done, though I think anyone seeking information on a baseball manager will understand how baseball might break windows.
  • "after another such," another such what?
Rephrased.
It seems unlikely to me that people would often follow such a link.
I don't agree, I would be interested to know what the rules are and why they changed. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Linked.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:32, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link pitcher.
As we've linked pitching, what need to link pitcher? They go to the same article.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More to come. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 15:56, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, no problem. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

  • "Election Method" no need to capitalise Method, We Are Not Germans.
To change this would require making a change to the fully-protected template infobox baseball biography, here.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:11, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, no reason why not. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:16, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Playing career - Minor leagues

  • "New York–Pennsylvania League" our article is at "Penn", which name is formally correct?
I've changed the pipe to point to the earlier league. We don't have a specific article on the original New York-Pennsylvania League but the new target at least discusses it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "boy's curveball would" overlinked.
Fine.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "200 miles" convert for our metric pals.
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on the bench" is there a link/explanation for this?
Linked to the glossary.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "first baseman" what is that?
  • "him $70 and" inflate so we know what really means.
Fine.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He caught on with" colloquial phrasing.
Changed.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Wehwalt (talk)
  • "referring" in reference to (to avoid so many verb verb verbs)
Done somewhat differently.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "fell in love with Cuba and" feels highly colloquial to "fall in love" with a place.
It's just reflecting the source. What would you suggest? He liked Cuba very much and returned there many times.
  • "to Gainesville, Florida" comma after Fl.
OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "three doubles in five times at bat" absolutely no idea what that means.
Linked.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "shortstop" what's that?
I believe that is linked on first use.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which must have been favorable" is this speculation?
I'm basically repeating what the source says.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then perhaps attribute that claim rather than suggest that Wikipedia is making that claim. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 19:38, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "could get McGraw" instead of get, is there a more encyclopedic term, like "sign" or "acquire"?
The original 1891 quote says "get". I suppose "acquire" would do.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a major league baseball player" is that different from "a Major League Baseball player"?
I've hyphenated major league. This may help. --Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:49, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Playing career - Baltimore years - 1891–1894

  • "short 1891 season" why was it short?
  • "poor fielding percentage" wouldn't that link be better in the previous sentence where you describe how many errors and chances he had?
I think the raw stats are of more use to the reader.
I didn't say remove the raw stats, just put "fielding percentage" description alongside them. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 19:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can you suggest how it would read?--Wehwalt (talk) 22:10, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "outfielder" what's that? Need to reword once linked to avoid a sea of blue too.
I've moved the word outfielder.
  • "easily finishing last" in the league.
I've rephrased slightly
  • "17 ... three" should be "17 ... 3" or "seventeen ... three"
Fine.--Wehwalt (talk)
  • Link catcher.
Done.
  • "stolen bases" what are they?
Done.
  • "runs scored" link.
Done.
  • I typically hyphenate off-season and link it.
Linked and standardized "offseason"
  • And you then say "During the offseason" so at least be consistent.
  • Link "infielder".
Infielder linked.
  • "five-time batting champion" in what sense? Runs? Home runs? Something else?
Linked.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "outfielder Willie Keeler" in the lead you called him "Wee Willie Keeler" (all linked), so I would go back there and remove "Wee".
He is best known, especially today, as "Wee Willie". I can't find specifically when he came to be called that in a hasty glance at Solomon's book but it wasn't before he was traded to Baltimore.
Just be consistent then. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 19:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is I don't want to call him "Wee Willie" until he is known as such, which seems to be after the trade to Baltimore, thus, the initial reference to him is without the Wee. He is "Keeler" later, I believe.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:10, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relink Baltimore chop.
  • Similarly "hit and run".
  • Caption has "Hugh Jennings" but you seem to call him Hughie throughout the prose.
Standardized.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was a sparkplug for the team" this is whimsical and non-encyclopedic.
I"m dubious about that but I think the point is made by the prose elsewhere
But I know what sparkplug is and I still don't really know what that means in this context. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 19:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that he drove the other players to perform better than they would have, as suggested in the nearby block quote.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "foul off" link.
FIne.
  • Link "strikes"
Fine.
  • And "bunted".
FIne.

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:04, 19 July 2021 (UTC) Playing career - Baltimore years - 1895–1899[reply]

  • "held out to start 1895" what does that mean?
  • "to the Cleveland Spiders.[38] " overlinked.
  • You linked diphtheria but not malaria?
  • I'm no expert, but isn't "cancelled" BritEng, isn't it "canceled" in USEng?
  • "cancelled over concerns poor weather would cancel" cancelled/cancel repetitive.
  • What happened on their tour of Europe?
  • "a half interest" what's that? And is it hyphenated or not, be consistent.
  • "player-manager" I think before you've said player/manager a couple of times, be consistent.
All these things redone.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Playing career - St. Louis and American League Orioles

  • "National League, and before the 1900 season, four NL teams" you've said "National League" a few times, find the first one, pop in a (NL), and then consistently use NL thereafter.
In this case, I think National League works better as a matter of prose.
  • Link free agent.
  • "on talented African-American ballplayer" ballplayers?
Both of those done.
  • Statistics table needs to comply with MOS:DTT, part of WP:ACCESS.
  • Any reason that table isn't sortable, it could be useful to our readers.
  • What do all the headings in that table mean? Needs a key/use {{abbr}} or similar.
  • Statistics like that should be right-aligned, not left-aligned, they look very strange the way they currently display.
I will work on the table and see what I can do with it. Tables are not my specialty and there's only so much I'm prepared to do with it.

More to come. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC) Manager of the New York Giants (1902—1932) - Hiring[reply]

  • The title appears to have an em-dash in the year range, it should be an en-dash.
  • "injured, and between recovering from a knee injury" repetitive.
  • What are "suspensions" in the context of baseball? What does one have to do to be suspended?
  • "when he refused to go, forfeiting the game " shouldn't that be "forfeited"?
No, it is the action of the umpire, not McGraw.
  • "His salary of $11,000 was" again, consider inflating these figures as they are mysterious being more than 100 years ago.
I think occasional figures might benefit from inflation techniques, not all of them, which clutter the text. I also believe they aren't truly accurate. After all, such a salary would have allowed the McGraws to have multiple servants whereas the equivalent salary today would not.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:32, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Manager of the New York Giants (1902—1932) - 1902–1904

  • "record of 22–50" what does that mean?
  • "four of them by telegraph to Cincinnati" -> "four of them to Cincinnati by telegraph"
  • "part of the summer appearing" avoid using seasons.
  • Is "discomfiture" the same as "discomfort"
  • For sign language, do you actually mean American Sign Language?
  • "champion Pittsburgh Pirates at the" overlinked.
  • "a hot start" not encyclopedic in tone.
Piped to the baseball term.
  • "15 game lead" should be "15-game lead"
Fine.
  • "the AL champs" colloquial.
FIne.

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:29, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll wait until you're caught up now. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 18:24, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Other than the table, that I have to consider more, I'm up to date. If it's too much of an issue, I might just export them to another page and supply links.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:11, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I made the col/row scope adjustments to the table in your sandbox and added an example of the {{abbr}} template too, if you do the other headings then I think that'll be nearly there. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the pinch hitter" any chance of a single sentence description of this innovation for those of us who have to navigate away from the article to find out what it means right now?
I think the overwhelming majority of readers who make it this far will know; for others, there is a link.
It will do no harm to provide a brief explanation here and that's actually a requirement of MOS. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fine.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "105 games, finishing nine games" repetitive use of "games" and 105/9 or words, per MOS.
I've separated them a bit. What in MOS are you referring to? Single-word numbers can be expressed in words.
Comparable items should be either all words or all numbers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think they're comparable, one is the number of victories in a season, usually a large number, the other is games ahead or behind, usually small. We elsewhere refer to the latter with the figure expressed in words.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would consider linking "ejection" to the baseball sub-section of the Ejection (sports) article.
  • "in a shutout" what's that?
  • "Mathewson getting diphtheria, and" overlinked.
  • "twenty games behind" whom?
  • ".466 career on-base percentage" what's that?
  • "slip, Always I have" should that be a period or a small a?
  • "Marlin, Texas to" comma after Texas.
  • "lined a ball " is that different from hitting a ball?
  • "baseman Johnny Evers recovered" overlinked.
  • "In the makeup game... lost the game" doesn't read well. And is a "makeup game" like a "decider"?
No it is not. The game was the replayed September 23 game. I believe the two uses of "game" are both necessary and far enough apart not to matter.
So was it a Replay (sports)? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And no, it's not about the distance between the use of "game", it's the fouled up grammar. You're basically saying "In the game they lost the game" which is horrible. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:58, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Both points addressed.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
1909–1914 onwards
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  • "while the older ones continued to slip" -> "and the older ones continuing to slip"
I believe it is correct as written.
No, it's awkwardly written and needs work. Too many conditionals. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Played with.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "That winter, content..." avoid seasons.
  • "on a hot streak" not encyclopedic in tone, perhaps "winning streak".
They are not the same. I've previously linked to hot as a baseball term.
  • Our article on Faust calls him Charlie, any reason he's Charles here?
It's his name. Sources refer to him either name.
Just wondered why we'd not use his common name. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
He seemed to go by either. When in doubt, I think going by the formal name is better.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "21 counting two wins" 2
I do not believe it necessary to render single-word numerals of low magnitude in words in that manner.
Comparable numbers, per MOS. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is where the common sense and exceptions spoken of in the guideline apply. It would look odd in AmEng to go with a numeral there.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is exactly the scenario the MOS is covering, and as most of our MOS is written by AmEng contributors, I'd be surprised if it wasn't what we should be doing. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:27, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by the Boston Red Sox, four" overlinked.
No. They are referred to as "Boston" earlier and linked, but I avoided calling them the Red Sox then because they were more usually called the Pilgrims then.
  • "notorious "muff" by" that needs explanation. Muff in BritEng is very different...
  • "Olympian Jim Thorpe to" what Olympic events did he compete in?
I think the interested reader can follow his link. We don't have the space to talk about McGraw as much as I would like; I can't spare the space for others.
You just have to add his event, like two words! The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Event alluded to.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "into a competent major leaguer" did he?
  • "1907–09" -> "1907–1909"
  • "players that fit his" fitted.
It may be an ENGVAR thing, but "fit" seems proper.
But it should be past tense, no? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's fine as is. Offsite grammar sites seem to say so as well.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They say that "fit" is the past tense of "fit"? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:27, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I note this was highlighted above. For the avoidance of doubt, can you confirm that in USEng, the past tense of "fit" is "fit" and not "fitted"? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and Chicago White Sox owner Charles Comiskey led" both overlinked.
  • "on the world tour" no need to repeat "world".
  • Any details of that tour?
Given the limited space I'm allowed for this article, it seems more productive to use it to discuss games that counted, rather than exhibitions.
  • "to jump to the" you mean "move"?
"jump" is the correct baseball term. A breach of contract is implied. See our article, Federal League
Is there a link to the glossary then? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken the liberty of adding one.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "league on the Fourth of July" is this notable?
They are famous in baseball history for that.
Who are famous? How? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The 1914 "Miracle" Braves, who went from last place on the Fourth of July to winning the World Series. It is not unusual to discuss the Braves of 1914 in that manner, and in fact the source does.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on Labor Day" similarly. And when is that? The rest of the world won't necessarily know.

1915–1919

  • "1911–13" -> "1911–1913"
  • "widely-praised" no need to hyphenate.
  • "but may resented the Mathewson" I don't understand this.
  • "as "basically mediocre". " don't we normally reference quotations directly afterward?
  • "in Cincinnati a suspension doubled when" I can't parse this.
  • "something to which " no need for "something"
  • "wanted out " perhaps this is dandy in USEng, but it reads colloquially to me.
  • "He actually bought" no need for "actually".
  • " by Stoneham.[111][112] Stoneham " repetitive.
  • "open his checkbook" again, reads colloquial, you mean "provide funds" or similar.
  • "got out to their usual hot start" again, not encyclopedic tone.
See my comment. It's a valid baseball term.
Is there a glossary of baseball terms which explains this colloquial term? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:43, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Glossary of baseball#H.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:45, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "helped to throw key games" what does this mean?
  • "absence, Johnny Evers ran" overlinked.
  • "seeking to enforce the Prohibition era Volstead Act" what did that have to do with baseball?

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where I haven't made a specific response, I've linked or rephrased. Up to date but for the table, which I haven't had time to consider.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wehwalt some quick responses above and please note I've done most of the ACCESS work for you at your sandbox, you just need to fill in the rest of the mysterious abbreviations and then copy the table back into the main article. I'll try to get to the rest of the article tomorrow, a way to go I know, but just for the avoidance of doubt, I'm actually going easy on requests for jargon explanation within the article etc, per MOS. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:36, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I found it: MOS:LINKSTYLE, e.g. "Do not unnecessarily make a reader chase links: if a highly technical term can be simply explained with very few words, do so." and "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:41, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
1921–1924 onwards
edit
  • "to platoon his" this needs explanation per MOS.
Per MOS:LINKSTYLE, your point above, I do not believe platooning can be explained in a "very few words". Accordingly, a link is appropriate.
A footnote would also suffice. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:11, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "swept them" what does that mean?
  • "Babe Ruth" overlinked.
  • Is "slugger" in the glossary?
  • "the American League team" I don't see the point in abbreviating these terms and then not using the abbreviation.
  • "the master of inside baseball" don't understand what that means, and according to whom was he the "master"?
Hynd is referring more to the capabilities of the upcoming 1921 and 1922 teams, so I've toned it down to "practitioner".
  • "hit a home run" link.
  • "In 1921, in winning... " In in repetitive.
  • "again outdrew" what does this mean, you've said it a couple of times in this para.
It is a common English word. Wiktionary defines it as "to attract a larger crowd than".
Who knew. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:12, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were shut out" link, is this like a clean sheet?
The term shutout was used in connection with the 1905 World Series.
  • Is there a suitable link for "Commissioner"?
  • "not stand pat with" I don't understand what this means.
  • "vanquished the Yankees, but they banished" not enecyclopedic in tone, they defeated and evicted them.
  • "1923 Fall Classic" what's that?
  • "In 1924, the Giants were..." this sentence is trying to convey a lot of material, it's hard to follow so I'd split it.
  • "player Jimmy O'Connell and" overlinked.
  • "would willing" be
  • "Series, they" this should either be a semi-colon or a period.
  • "1936–1939, 1949–1953 and 1960–1964 " the first is a three year span while the others are four, were two series played in one year in the first range?

1925–1931

  • "good teams, but none proved good" good good repetitive prose.
  • "lost a crucial series" what made it "crucial"?
  • "1926 saw the..." avoid starting sentences with numerals.
  • "1926 was a..." ditto.
  • "sent Frankie Frisch and" overlinked.
  • "manager for Frisch" comma after manager.
  • "likely the most sensational in baseball" needs attribution.
  • You've linked other ailments, but not sinusitis?
  • "The team was buoyed by the signing of pitcher Carl Hubbell, the team stayed..." this doesn't parse well and in any case is repetitive. Could probably replace ", the team" with "and".
  • It seems odd to me to have his managerial record in between 1930 and his retirement from management. It would make more sense to finish his career up, then have the table, then do the post-career bit.
OK. I'll take care of the tables after the text is done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:03, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Managerial record

  • Table needs to be made MOS:DTT compliant, row/col scopes, caption, key etc.
  • "player-manager" has been "player/manager" up to this point.

Retirement and death

  • "subsequent homestead" I don't understand what that means.
  • "of the winter in" avoid seasons.
  • "the National League team" again, you've abbreviated this previously so use the abbreviation.
  • "the National League meetings" likewise.
  • "Blanche McGraw remained" just "His wife" would suffice.
  • "a month and a half short of his 61st birthday" this isn't notable.
  • "in the spring" avoid seasons.
I think in this case, it simply denotes that McGraw could not be buried due to frozen ground.

Posthumous honors

  • "season, for example when" reads very awkwardly.
  • This whole first para is barely about posthumous honors and more about what Blanche did after McGraw was dead.
I've broadened it a bit.
  • "erect a monument to McGraw there. The John McGraw Monument was erected" repetitive.

Managerial techniques

  • "30 with the Giants and one" 30/1, or thirty/one.
  • "He is third among major league managers" I may not be reading it right, but the source seems to suggest McGraw is second?
  • Oh hang on there are two sources, which conflict with each other... That doesn't seem right to me.
  • La Russa, according to our article, currently has a winning % of .537, which also conflicts with that CBS source and thus the 0.050 you mention (which presumably should be 0.049.
La Russa passed McGraw recently. I've said "about" since La Russa's percentage is variable since he is an active manager.
  • "athlete Jim Thorpe in 1913" overlinked.
  • Non-breaking space before pm.
  • "team led by Ross Youngs" overlinked.

General

  • Lots of horribly coloured templates at the bottom, can they be collapsed into a single "McGraw achievements" box?
Do you have an example you can show me of a situation where this has been done?
Check out Usain Bolt. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:11, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's in for the first pass. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 11:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done except for the templates, which I will get at presently.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:03, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've now implemented the further comments and done the tables.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:39, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Second table still needs row scopes and a caption, per MOS:DTT. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:59, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a row scope for the final column. Does that resolve it?--Wehwalt (talk) 22:34, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, each row needs a row scope, it's not for the column, it's for each row. And the table needs a caption too... The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the tables entirely. There is no requirement that they appear.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:05, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man, are you in a position to indicate whether you support the article's promotion?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet, as you can see from the comments I've made, there needs to be a considerable amount of checking. I'll try to get a second pass done tomorrow. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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