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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jozo Tomasevich/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 3 September 2024 [1].

Jozo Tomasevich

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jozo Tomasevich was a Yugoslav-American economist and historian whose works on Yugoslavia in WWII continue to be widely cited today despite his first book on the Chetniks being published nearly fifty years ago. According to the German historian Klaus Schmider, it is a tragedy that he died before completing the third volume of his planned series on Yugoslavia in WWII which was to be focussed on the Partisans. Even his second volume had to be published posthumously in 2001, with editing by his daughter. I have used his works right across my WP contributions on WWII on Yugoslavia, and his work forms the foundation on which many more recent historians have built. This is my second nom of a historian of WWII in Yugoslavia after Radoje Pajović. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Done, thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

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Hi Peacemaker67, some comments:

  • "the former Yugoslavia": just "Yugoslavia" would be fine, no?
yes, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is SFSU linked in the lead on second use and not first?
Good question. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps clarify that The Chetniks was part of the 3 volume series and not a standalone book? I thought so till I read the Biblio section.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "so-called" really needed? We have to be neutral and we already say it was a puppet state. Consider removing in the lead and the body?
Actually it is necessary in my opinion, as it was named that, but ironically far from independent. Tomasevich himself called it an Italo-German quasi-protectorate. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Klaus Schimder, the RMAS lecturer": Use "a" instead of "the"? I'm assuming Schmider was not the only lecturer at the RMAS.
Yep, whoops. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure about this, but wouldn't the Mihailović picture be better placed at the start of the World War II subsection?
Good call, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:38, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider adding the ISBN for Tomasevich and Vucinich 1969. Is this the one: 9780520015364? Also, Google Books shows Vucinich here was an editor and not an author.
Done. No, Google Books is often wrong about such things, Vucinich was the author of two chapters as well as the editor. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link to The American Historical Review and Nationalities Papers, as done for other journals?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any details on his collaboration with Wayne Vucinich?
Not beyond him contributing a chapter to the book. They taught at different universities in California and I understand they were close colleagues and co-received an award in 1989, and I'd love to know more given the Vucinich brothers were Serbs and Tomasevich a Croat, but they appear to have got along very well. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure military biography is the right WPMH task force here, you should consider removing it and retaining only the historiography task force tag.
Excellent point, he was not a military person. Removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Has anyone endeavored to publish the Tomasevic papers at HILA or Volume 3 of his series? I found one article on this from the Washington Post but it was paywalled.
Not that I'm aware of. It would be wonderful if Vol 3 was published. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me, cheers Matarisvan (talk) 12:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for taking a look, Matarisvan. I reckon I might have addressed all your comments. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Peacemaker67, above comments all OK. A minor issue I forgot to spot last time: we need page numbers for a couple of the sources, namely Baletić 1997, Prosecutor versus Vojislav Šešelj 2008, Irwin 2000, Auty 1976, Dragnich 1976 and Campbell 1976. The other sources are only one pagers, so those don't have any problems, but these one have multiple pages, so you will need to add the page numbers for them. Matarisvan (talk) 08:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
G'day Matarisvan. Strictly speaking, the short "review" citations do not need a page, as the page range given in the long citation is only 2-3 pages long, and anyone wishing to verify them need only read a page or two, and in any case their comments should be read in the context of the whole review. I have added pages for the Baletić and Prosecutor vs Vojislav Šešelj short citations, as they are longer pieces of work. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
G'day Matarisvan, sorry about the delay. I think I have completed all these now. It isn't clear whether he was US or Yugoslav at the UN, so I went for a different cat. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to now support for promotion to FA class. Matarisvan (talk) 03:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright

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Placeholder - Pendright (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

Look these changes over
  • His final book was the second volume of the series – War and Revolution in Yugoslavia 1941–1945: Occupation and Collaboration – which was published posthumously in 2001 after editing by his daughter Neda.
after usually means -> in the time following an event or another period <-> in which case, it soumds like the book was edited after its publication - what am I missing?
  • In an obituary in the Slavic Review, Tomasevich was described as "a master of scholarly skills, a person of bountiful erudition, wit and human dignity".
Why is an not his?
All done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

  • Košarni Do is a hamlet of Donja Banda and is today part of the Orebić municipality within the Dubrovnik-Neretva County of Croatia.[1]
today?
Changed to "now". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>I hate quibbling further, but now means at the present time, at this moment or very soon. So, how about dropping the word, or replacing it with something like this: -> Košarni Do is a hamlet of Donja Banda and in (year) became part of the Orebić municipality within the Dubrovnik-Neretva County of Croatia. Pendright (talk) 22:00, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know when the village became a part of the municipality, and now means at the present time. This is accurate at the present time. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>On this one, we'll have to agree to disagree!Pendright (talk)
  • Nado returned to the village in 1894, [and he] married the daughter of his first cousin and worked as a farmer.
Suggest these changes
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1938, he was the recipient of a two-year Rockefeller fellowship and moved to the US,[3] thereby "availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University".
"availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University" -> If this is a direct quote, should there be attribution-if not, then should italics be used?
Quotes don't have to be attributed, just closely cited. In this case, it is, to Vucinich. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Interesting! You can further my education by referring me to something authoritative on the subject. Pendright (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:QUOTE#Attribution. This is not an opinion quote which would require attribution to Vucinich. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Thank you! Pendright (talk) 22:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The other brother living in Košarni Do received the share of the fourth brother who, by then, was a merchant mariner living in New Zealand.[4]
Could drop "other"
I'm not sure I can. There were two brothers living in Košarni Do, and "other" indicates that this is not the one who received Jozo's share of the farm. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

of World War II – and now known by the anglicised Tomasevich – he moved to California.

and then known
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1937, Tomasevich married Neda Brelić, a high school teacher. They were happily married for 57 years and had three children – Anthony, Neda Ann, and Lasta. In 1976, Tomasevich contributed an essay to a book in which he conducted a sociological and historical analysis of his extended family reaching back to the early nineteenth century.
Somehow,Chronologically, these sentences seem out of order?
Not really. He married, they had children, then he wrote a essay about his family history. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>He was married in 1937 and moved to the U.S. in 1938? In any case, it's your call.
  • His widow Neda died on July 5, 2002, at 88.[8]
Is where she died relative?
I don't think so, although it was Palo Alto, like Jozo. Do you think it needs to be added? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Probably a matter of opinion. Pendright (talk) 22:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've added it for completeness. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yugoslavia's economy

  • The first appeared in German in 1934 and was titled Die Staatsschulden Jugoslaviens (The National Debt of Yugoslavia).
during 1934
  • The following year, he had Financijska politika Jugoslavije, 1929–1934 (Fiscal Policy of Yugoslavia, 1929–1934) published in Serbo-Croatian, covering much of the same material but more accessible to Yugoslavs.[1]
  • Does 1929-1934 need to be repeated?
  • which covered
  • A 1940 review of the book in Weltwirtschaftliches Archiv, by Professor Mirko Lamer – who later served with the United Nations as an expert at the Food and Agriculture Organization – described Novac i kredit as an important work that filled a large gap in Yugoslav economic literature, and also gave a vivid picture of then-current economic theory.[9]
and it also
These all done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

International marine resources and Yugoslav peasants

  • The first [book] was International Agreements on Preservation of Marine Resources, [that was] published by Stanford University Press in 1943.
Suggest the above changes
  • The second book, Peasants, Politics, and Economic Change in Yugoslavia [was] published in 1955, was [and] described by Vucinich as "a study of monumental scope [which] has been widely recognized as the most comprehensive and accomplished study in the field".
Suggest the above changes
These are done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

World War II

  • In 1957, Tomasevich received a San Francisco State University grant for Slavic and Eastern European studies.[12]
Suggest -> In 1957, Tomasevich received a grant from San Francisco State University for Slavic and Eastern European studies.[12]
  • The first volume focused on the Chetnik movement led by Draža Mihailović, which was subtitled The Chetniks and appeared in 1975.
In the context used, what does appeared mean?
  • Soon after it was published, the book was reviewed by Phyllis Auty, professor of modern history at Simon Fraser University.
Replace the comma with "who was a
  • The third volume in the planned trilogy, which was to cover the Partisans, was 75 per cent complete at the time of his death,[1] and remains unpublished.
and it

@Peacemaker67: This is it for now. Pendright (talk) 03:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All done I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Pendright, I may have addressed all your comments now. Let me know if anything needs tweaking or you see anything else. As always, thanks for your detailed review. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker: Supporting - it's always a pleasure working with you. Pendright (talk) 22:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Peacemaker67, nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hurricanehink

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I figured I'd review this considering I have an FAC of my own.

  • Could you add a caption for the infobox image?
Other than his name, there is really nothing to add. We don't know when it was taken, photos of him are quite rare. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Google says Jozo's birthday is March 16, 1908, but there's nothing in this article. Any reason for not including the birth date?
lack of a reliable source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Between 1943 and 1955, Tomasevich published two books on economic matters; one focused on marine resources and the other on the peasant economy of Yugoslavia and both of them received positive reviews." - the last part seems like an add-on, and makes the sentence a bit too long. Perhaps - "Tomasevich published two well-received books on economic matters"?
I went with "positively received" as "well-received" is used earlier. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The book was positively reviewed, and twenty-five years later was described as still the "most complete and best book about the Chetniks to be published either abroad or in former Yugoslavia" - the quote doesn't seem important for lead. First, it's unattributed - I see in the body of the text that it was from the Croatian historian Ivo Goldstein, but that doesn't mean his quote should be in the lead. Could you write the same meaning without the quote?
I think it is important for the lead. T's contribution in this area is key to his impact, and Goldstein is eminent. Given it is an opinion, I have attributed it to him. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • the so-called Independent State of Croatia. - "so-called" seems a bit biased and pointy for my liking. Could you word it differently?
it is often described in this way (eg by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum and others), as ironically it was far from "independent", being essentially an occupied quasi-protectorate propped up by large numbers of Axis troops. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But not on Wikipedia. I would rather "Axis-aligned" or something, since "so-called" is too biased for my liking. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "remains unpublished despite being 75 per cent complete at his death." - is there a reason you don't write it as 75%?
Per MOS:PERCENT, in non-scientific articles either is fine. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mention Jozo's father's name, but what about mother?
An excellent question, I am popping into the library tomorrow to look at a source that might have it, but failing that, it isn't in any RS I am aware of. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I cannot find a RS for either of their given names, Nado is a nickname, I've clarified the latter and its meaning. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jozo completed his secondary education in Sarajevo – then part of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia – before moving to Switzerland to study at the University of Basel where he earned a doctorate in economics. " - when? This is a pretty important part of his life that you glossed over. Is there anything more about this part of his life?
Just waiting on a source that might help with this, no more than a couple of days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have been able to locate a bit more on this period of his life, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • thereby "availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University" - who said this?
it is cited to Vucinich. Given it isn't an opinion, it doesn't need in-text attribution, just close citation, which it has. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Rich resources" is an opinion. The rest of the article says "According to Vucinich". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Rich resources" is an opinion? I would say it is WP:BLUE. Who would challenge the idea that Harvard has "rich resources"? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mention the siblings, but never by name. Any reason?
They aren't provided in any RS I'm aware of. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some more year/date references would be nice for "Early life" section. For example, "After the war, he initially worked at the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco." - When?
I've added a bit on this where it was available. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And a bit more timeframe information from a newly-located source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Before the outbreak of World War II – and then known by the anglicised Tomasevich – he moved to California." - again, when? The war broke out in 1939, so there could be a variety of dates.
The source that might provide some answers is at a local university library which I will be able to look at over the next few days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Any update? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworded this based on the dates of his Rockefeller fellowship documentation which indicate about when the name change occurred. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • When did Jozo meet Neda Brelić? For a marriage of 57 years, there's very little on that.
Not known. It appears he was quite reticent about this personal life. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He became an American citizen." - when?
Not known. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • What did Jozo die from?
Not known. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article is fine, but it seems to focus too much on what other people think about his writings, and too little about his actual life. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are still a lot of unknown parts, which I'm not a huge fan of, like when American citizenship happened, what he died from, any siblings' names, the mother's name, when he went to SF, even the birthday. I get that a lot of this information isn't available, but it's a shame when you Google his birthday, and it says "March 16", but that there's no reliable source for it. The article is decent, for sure, but it's a shame that so much is unknown. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Peacemaker67 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of a response to Hurricanehink's post-review summary, unfortunately Tomasevich was not very forthcoming about his family details in general and even in the chapter he wrote for Byrnes' book (perhaps for privacy reasons given it was during communist times), and neither was his obituarian, Alexander Vucinich, who must have known him and his family well. Given that, and because his notability relates to his work rather than his family, I think I can be forgiven for not being able to find any of these family details. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've responded to a few of the above to clarify what I have been able to add. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Joy

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Since the name is only partially anglicized, it might make sense to figure out what was the pronunciation. We don't happen to have one at Jozo, while we do have one at Josip, but in case of Tomasevich it would specifically make sense to note how the Americans pronounced his first name because it's not clear it would have been the same as the original. --Joy (talk) 20:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it was, but don't have any evidence for my opinion. I'll see if I can find some. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, Joy, I have drawn a blank here. It would be great to find a video where an American historian (like one of the Vucinich's) pronounce his name, but I haven't been able to locate one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:05, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, we can leave a note to this effect on the Talk page for later. --Joy (talk) 11:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

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As this nomination has been open for five weeks and has yet to garner support, it is liable to be archived in the next few days unless there's a pickup in activity. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks David. I've been out of town, but have now addressed the first two reviews and have a crack at HH's shortly. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just working through the remaining comments over the next few days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Tomobe03

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  • I may be nitpicking here, but the first paragraph of the Early life, education, career and family section and the first sentence of the second paragraph of the same section may give impression to casual readers that Austria-Hungary and Yugoslavia existed at the same time.
No, that's a fair call. Have added a better explanation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "His widow Neda died in Palo Alto..." I'm wondering if either "his widow" or "Neda" is redundant because she's already introduced in the same paragraph as his wife. Striking this, as I realise that he had a daughter of the same name.
  • Regarding Financijska politika Jugoslavije (Fiscal Policy of Yugoslavia) - is that the English translation of the title the book is known as generally? I'd expect Fiscal Policy of Yugoslavia to be translation of "Fiskalna politika Jugoslavije"... or that the English translation of the title is "Financial Policy of Yugoslavia". That is, of course unless the offered English translation is common translation of the title.
Doh, well spotted, not sure what I did there. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall, I'd say the article appears comprehensive, i.e. I feel I have no question to ask that is not already answered by the prose.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a mention of Peasants, Politics, and Economic Change in Yugoslavia in Splivalo, Josip (1958). "Naučno djelo našeg profesora u Americi" [Scientific Work of Our Professor in America]. Naše more (in Croatian). 5 (1). University of Dubrovnik: 52. ISSN 0469-6255. The short article might be illuminating because it says that the book consists of three parts. The first one provides a review of historical development of of Yugoslav peoples and their common characteristics in economics. The second part reviews agriculture during the WWI and the third one examines agriculture in the interwar period. The review of historical development gives (at least to me) an impression that there's the point where Tomasevich's interest started crossing from economics alone to history. The article also indicates that Joseph S. Davis wrote a foreword for the book.--Tomobe03 (talk) 08:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so much for spotting that, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All done I think, Tomobe03. Thanks for taking a look! Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Happy to support.Tomobe03 (talk) 19:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC

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Review to follow shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 07:00, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • There are two ellipses that should have non-breaking spaces before the ..., per WP:ELLIPSES
Fixed, thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • "a master of scholarly skills": as this is a quote it should be cited, per MOS:LEADCITE
Well, I could, but I think "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus" applies here, given the quote is cited and attributed in-text in the body, and no-one else has raised it, I really don't think it is necessary here. I'd be happy to attribute it in-text in the lead as well if that would make you more comfortable? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave it to your judgement. I suspect that when this hits the front page people may make waves about it, but it's your call. - SchroCat (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • "He became an American citizen": any date on this?
I wish. No, I had to find an oblique reference to it in a war crimes trial transcript after failing to find a direct source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It feels odd to have a section titled "early life" that ends with his death age 88. Maybe just call the section 'private life' or similar
Well, it has education, career and family in the title and section as well, not just "private life". I could add "death" to the end? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That, I think, may be a bit of overkill. Again, I'll leave to to your best judgement. - SchroCat (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

  • "a master of scholarly skills – needs a closing quote mark
Well spotted, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's the lot: very minor stuff in a very readable article - SchroCat (talk) 07:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, SchroCat and sorry about the delay in getting to your comments. See what you think of the above and my changes. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Peacemaker67 ? It's been a couple of weeks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Gog, I've been hunting a source to try to address a few comments, but will just get on with what I can do now. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:43, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by RoySmith

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I took a look at some sources:

  • Josip "Jozo" Tomašević was born in 1908 in the village of Košarni Do on the Pelješac peninsula in the Kingdom of Dalmatia , which was then part of Austria-Hungary . [1] probably a nit, but the source doesn't categorize Dalmatia as a "Kingdom", nor does it say anything about Austria-Hungary.
I think it's a nit. I'm working on the basis of WP:BLUE here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Košarni Do is a hamlet of Donja Banda and is now part of the Orebić municipality within the Dubrovnik-Neretva County of Croatia . [1] I'm guessing you've just got the wrong citation because the source doesnt say any of those things.
Yep, I have added citations to the Croatian post office website which details the local government status of these places within the county. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before the outbreak of World War II – and then known by the anglicised Tomasevich – he moved to California. He was on the scholarly staff of the Food Research Institute within Stanford University . During the war, he worked with the Board of Economic Warfare [1] ... After the war, he initially worked at the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco. The source says

    Before World War II he moved to California where he was a member of the scholarly staff of the Food Research Institute at Stanford University. During World War II he was affiliated successively with the Board of Economic Warfare and UNRRA in Washington, DC. After the war he was with the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco.

    so I'm a little concerned about WP:CLOP. I get that much of this is just a chronological history and full of proper names, but it still seems a bit too close to the original. Also, while the source does use the spelling "Tomasevich", I think it's a bit of WP:SYNTH to say "then known by the anglicised ...".
I've changed wording here, hopefully enough. Also, I've found a ref for a year by which he was definitely using the anglicised name, the Rockefeller fellowship in 1950, and have added that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:03, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • and then the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration in Washington, D.C. from 1944 to 1946. After the war, he initially worked at the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco. [1] [7] Maybe I'm just not familiar with how harvard refs work, but I had to dive into the wikisource to figure out that OAC meant "Online Archives of California". And once I got there, it doesn't say anything about Washington, D.C.
Harv footnotes can be shortened for brevity. If you click on it, it takes you to the footnote list and if you click that it takes you to the full citation. There is no requirement for the footnote tag to be the full name of the organisation. I've tweaked the wording and added a citation to the UNRRA that says its HQ was in DC. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • His preference was for a position combining teaching and research, so in 1948 he joined the San Francisco State College (later San Francisco State University). Tomasevich taught there for twenty-five years until he retired in 1973 – except in 1954 when he taught at Columbia University . [1] The source says

    Preferring a professional assignment combining teaching and research, he joined San Francisco State College—now San Francisco State University—in 1948 and stayed there until his retirement in 1973. In 1954 he taught at Columbia University for one year.

    This seems like CLOP again. I wasn't sure about this so I asked for a second opinion from my wife (who writes and reviews scientific papers professionally). She agrees that while it's not word-for-word, its the same sentence and paragraph structure with just a few words changed here or there, which is, as WP:CLOP puts it, "superficial modification of material from another source".
I get what you are saying, but there are only so many ways to present the same factual information about his work. I have attempted to move it a bit more away from the source formulation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1937, Tomasevich married Neda Brelić, a high school teacher. They were happily married for 57 years and had three children – Anthony, Neda Ann, and Lasta. In 1976, Tomasevich contributed an essay to a book in which he conducted a sociological and historical analysis of his extended family reaching back to the early nineteenth century. He became an American citizen. [9] This appears to be mis-cited; it's in [1], not [9].
Not sure what happened there, cited to Vucinich, the citizenship is the only bit that should be cited to the trial case. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to stop at this point. Most of the sources used are off-line, which is fine. But in almost every case, when I spot-checked a source that was available to me, I found problems. This does not give me confidence that the rest of the sourcing is correct. Perhaps I'm just being too picky, so maybe somebody else should do some more spot-checking.

Here's some more:

  • Tomasevich died ... in Palo Alto, California.[10] The source just says he was a resident of Palo Alto, not that he died there.
Fixed, also for his wife. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A 1940 review of the book in Weltwirtschaftliches Archiv , by Professor Mirko Lamer – who later served with the United Nations as an expert at the Food and Agriculture Organization ... [12] This is not in English so I'm unable to read it, but I'd wager that a review written by Lamer in 1940 says nothing about Lamer's future employment.
Yes, added a citation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first book was International Agreements on Preservation of Marine Resources , that was published by Stanford University Press in 1943 ... [1] The cited source says 1949. WorldCat does indeed say 1943, but you're not citing WorldCat.
Replaced citation with Tomasevich 1943. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Soon after it was published, the book was reviewed by Phyllis Auty , who was a professor of modern history at Simon Fraser University ... [16] The source does identify Auty as being from Simon Fraser University, but doesn't say anything about being a "professor of modern history".
Added a citation from her obit in The Independent which shows her role there at the time. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The third volume in the planned trilogy ... and it remains unpublished. [22] Nit: this should be qualified with {{asof}}.
This is rather difficult to cite, as I am trying to prove a negative. I'm going to leave it as is. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Roy, I really must have been tired when I wrote some of this. I will get on to addressing these comments in the next day or so. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi RoySmith, I am assuming that this constitutes a source review? Ta. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would call it a source-to-text spot check. I was mostly looking for WP:V issues. If I spotted any copying problems along the way, I brought those up too, but they weren't my main focus. I believe what you're talking about as a "source review" is more about formatting, consistency, and style which you may have noticed by now aren't what excites me, so I'll leave that stuff to somebody else. RoySmith (talk) 00:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough RoySmith, thanks. In the light of Peaacemaker's responses would you consider the spot check a pass or a fail? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in a quandry how to answer that. The important issues have all be resolved. Some of the items I noted above were nits. I recognize that I let my personal preferences show through in a few places and agree that WP:FACR has been satisfied in all of those instances.
Where the quandry comes in is that if the spot-check is supposed to be a statistical sampling, I'd have to say that I found more problems in my sample that I should have, and since I restricted my sample to those sources that were available to me on line, it's reasonable to ask whether the sources that were not available to me would also have the same failure rate. I hesitate to speak for @Jo-Jo Eumerus, but it sounds like he agrees with me on that.
So, let me propose that @Peacemaker67 take some time to review the sources on his own, and when he tells me he's satisfied they're in good shape, I'll pick 5 more at random, concentrating on those that are not available to me on-line and ask him to send me scans (or whatever) and I'll verify those. RoySmith (talk) 14:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is very reasonable. Give me a few days to check everything. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's sound logic. When a sample of 10 out of e.g 100 sources shows that 7 sources have problems, that implies that of the 100 sources about 70 might have problems and thus all 100 need to be reviewed. That said, when evaluating offline sources I've found that asking the nominator to send screenshots or photos of the source by email or Google Drive usually works. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 05:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Status on this, Peacemaker67? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:02, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Working, nearly done. Give me 24-48 hours and I'll be ready for Roy to take another look. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me. My hope is that I don't find any problems, and if it takes a bit of extra time to get to that point, that's still a win as far as I'm concerned. RoySmith (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
G'day RoySmith. I reckon I might have got through it all now, sorry for the delay. I made a few changes where the wording might have been a bit close to the original, even to my German translations, so hopefully all will be well. I also added a few closer citations and deleted a sentence fragment that seemed superfluous. If you can't access any of the sources, please ping me and I'll email them to you. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'll work on this in the next few days. RoySmith (talk) 18:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67 OK, partly done; no significant issues found so far. Could you send me Violich 1998 and Sanders 1956? RoySmith (talk) 23:56, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67 Just want to make sure you saw my note above. RoySmith (talk) 15:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Roy, sent to your email. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I looked at the following

  • Citations (6), (7), (8), and (9), all to Violich 1998. Most of it verified. As a nit, (7) says page 11, but it's really on page 12. The only significant problem I see is with (8). I’m not seeing this on page 12. Some of it appears on page 10 (“With the establishment of the new Yugoslav state in 1918…”) Some of it appears on page 97 and following (“From Royalist to Communist Yugoslavia and the Republic of Croatia”), but not all. It mentions “Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes” and that it was renamed Yugoslavia, but not that the renaming happened in 1929. It also cites the Treaty of Versailles as the driving factor in the establishment of the Kingdom, which seems like an important detail to leave out. On the other hand, the source also mentions 1918, but the T. of V. was 1919, so I’m not quite sure what the source is trying to say (not your fault!). Also, I didn’t realize until you emailed me that this was available in the Open Library. Adding a URL for that with a “via” attribute would be useful.
  • Citation (35) to Kadazabek 2004. If we accept that “desire for statehood was exploited by the Axis powers who allowed PaveliA's Ustasas to carve a Greater Croatia from the spoils of war,” is what was supports calling Croatia “an Axis puppet state”, then this verifies.
  • Citation (33) to Campbell 1976. Verifies.
  • Citations (29) to Auty 1976 and (30) to Wheeler 1998. Basically verifeis with just one nit: what you've quoted as "a most impressive ... scholarly examination of evidence" would more properly be "most impressive ... scholarly examination ... of evidence" because there's some words you leave out, and the leading "a" isn't in the source.
  • Citation (27) to Sanders 1956. All the claims verify, but as a nit, you can combine the two consecutive citations into one. Also, you said in your email you got this out of WP:Library. I had looked but was unable to find it so a link and via attribute would be useful.

The only real issue is (8). I feel confident that I can read the article and the source and compare them. I feel much less confident to say if the discrepancy I found is significant enough to be an issue so I'll leave that judgement call up to the @FAC coordinators: coordinators. RoySmith (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Roy, corrected (7). The process of Yugoslavia's creation in 1918 as the KSCS and its change of name is uncontroversial and unlikely to be challenged, so I was relying on BLUE here. Nevertheless, I have cited it. Violich is actually not correct here in respect of the driving forces behind the creation of the KSCS (later Yugoslavia). The creation of the KSCS was not actually a result of the Treaty of Versailles, it was a home-grown initiative between the various South Slav groups who took advantage of the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to combine and form a new country that they had wished for for decades. Of course, the Great Powers eventually acquiesced and formally recognised its formation through the Treaty of Trianon (with Hungary) and the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (with German-Austria) over the next two years. So, I didn't include that bit because it is incorrect. I was relying on the sentence you quoted for the NDH being an Axis puppet state, but have added a citation here as well. I have reworded the Auty/Wheeler bit as you have suggested. I haven't combined the Sanders citations because they are closely citing separate quotations. I have also added the urls to the sources to aid verification, as suggested. Thanks again. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review with caveat

edit

I'll do the consistency-and-reliability check, but given what RoySmith found above, another spotcheck or general source-to-text integrity check is necessary IMO. Anyhow, #20 is throwing a harv error. I am not sure that academic publications need a retrieval date. It seems like we are mostly dealing with sound academic publications here, although I am not deeply familiar with the topic. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

harv error fixed. Had left ref=no in the template when I copied to to the refs. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

edit
  • "after completing his formal schooling, he earned a doctorate in economics from the University of Basel in Switzerland". What does "formal" mean here?
have specified what is meant. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "planned to include three volumes". "include" implies additional material. I suggest "consist of".
OK, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was appointed professor emeritus of economics at SFSU". "professor emeritus" means a retired professor. "appointed" seems the wrong word as implying a special status.
My understanding is that it varies. Not every retired professor is entitled to use "emeritus", it usually involves a continuing relationship with the institution. It is still "bestowed", and sometimes requires a vote or action. In this case, the source (CREES) says "Professor Emeritus of economics at Stanford University", the "at" implying a continuing connection. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The primary agricultural product of the Pelješac peninsula was red table wine, the population were primarily subsistence farmers". This seems contradictory. You cannot subsist on wine - well not entirely.
Fair enough, have specified they were "otherwise" subsistence farmers. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the peninsula did not have any roads until 1946". This needs clarification. They must have had roads, even if they were only dirt tracks.
Then they were not roads, they were tracks. I presume they mean paved, but the source doesn't say that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A track is a road. Merriam-Wesbster defines a road as "an open way for vehicles, persons, and animals". Other dictionaries add especially paved. I would add "paved" as that must be what was meant, but of course that is up to you. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:16, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He became an American citizen." I suggest giving the date.
Unfortunately there isn't one in sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The book was published posthumously in 2001 with editing from his daughter Neda Tomasevich." "with editing from" is an odd expression. Maybe "edited by".
Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be helpful to list the languages Tomasevich knew.
Haven't got a source for that, the best information is the quote from Schmider but he doesn't specify. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While the Vucinich obit is relied upon fairly heavily for description, the article quotes other authorities on the value of his work such as Auty, Schmider, Goldstein and Campbell. I could have added Ramet, Hoare, and Pavlowitch, but thought that would be overkill. Dragnich is fairly typical of the trenchant critics, who frankly are in a small minority. There are far more positive than negative views on his work, and I believe I have reflected the balance accurately. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Dudley, I think I have addressed your comments, see what you think. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

G'day @FAC coordinators: I reckon this might be about ready to wrap up. Thanks for your forbearance. From Roy's comments above I presume it's over to you to determine if you want Jo-Jo Eumerus to review the sources further or not. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:31, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS, however this ends up, I'd like to thank @Peacemaker67 for being extremely solicitous and cooperative as I poked and prodded through the details of the references at a level far beyond what is typical. RoySmith (talk) 15:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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