Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/KARE (TV)/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

KARE (TV)

edit

KARE (TV) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 2 October 2024, 03:12 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
Toolbox
Nominator(s): Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:35, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I have a type, it's major-market, often network-affiliated TV stations with unusual histories. After a radio detour, I'm back at it, and channel 11 in Minneapolis is one of them. You'll get: the story of two stations on one channel, consolidated by Consolidated; how the Minnesota Twins came along to save the station after it lost its network affiliation; how then-WTCN-TV went from successful independent to NBC affiliate with a disastrous "new news" that the ratings showed to be "about as popular as the measles" (not my words); and how Gannett took the station apart and rebuilt it to viewer acclaim in the 1980s and 1990s.

User:Premeditated Chaos provided a deep GA review in March 2024 in preparation for an eventual FAC (thank you!). This is the second-longest article by references and prose size I've sent to FAC. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:35, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support

edit

I'll review this soon. Hog Farm Talk 00:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "announced it would take over WCCO radio, merge it with channel 4, and divest WTCN radio" - how do you merge a radio station and a TV station? Is this meaning to turn it into a single corporate entity?
  • "WMIN and WTCN—each seeking to avoid a lengthy comparative hearing—proposed to share time on channel 11" - I might have missed something, but the WTCNs mentioned above are a radio station and a TV station that was no longer known by the WTCN name, neither of which have been previously mentioned as wanting channel 11
    • The answers on these are related. In 1947, channel 4 went on as WTCN-TV and the sister to WTCN radio. The owner of those two stations, in 1952, bought WCCO, a radio institution in Minnesota (especially in those days). This meant that channel 4 became WCCO-TV and that WTCN had to be sold off. The new owners of WTCN were the ones that wanted channel 11, having already filed for it.
      • Okay, I think I get it now. I had read "at which time channel 4 changed from WTCN-TV to WCCO-TV" as a call sign change, rather than WCCO-TV moving from wherever it had been to channel four, and then WTCN not having a home. (I think I was trying to interpret it in the manner of the KTXR/KWTO-FM changeover that occurred in my home radio market a few years ago). Hog Farm Talk 02:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Modern radio station format and frequency swaps are not like this case at all, but I can see why if that was your benchmark you were confused.
    Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:53, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is Note A about Captain 11 particularly relevant to this topic at hand?
    • I wrote KELO-TV to GA as well, and the program takes up more oxygen there than you'd think. The footnote is intended to reinforce the connection (and since I had already done the research on the South Dakota side). I'd like to keep it.
  • Should Casey Jones be linked?

Ready for the NewsCenter 11 section. Hog Farm Talk 02:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Tonight aired on KMSP until it was returned to WTCN in its original timeslot." - not finding this in the cited source
    • Turns out this addition by MrSchimpf was actually wrong! I've added two references here.
  • Is there a reason why the text list of transmittors excludes K35KH-D, which is shown on the map as a second transmittor in Jackson?
    • Almost certainly because an error was in there somewhere. Nathan Obral did the map for me, and this article must have listed two transmitters. RabbitEars says that translator rebroadcasts KSAX-TV. Unless two transmitter sites in a translator system share the same COL, which can happen (e.g. Elko, NV), the listing of two translators for a station in an area is almost always wrong in practice. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 03:24, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's all from me. Hog Farm Talk 02:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: Fixed the other two errors. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 03:24, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

edit

Source review from PMC

edit

Since I did prose commentary for the GA, I'll do a source review here. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go!

  • What makes Northpine a high-quality RS?
    • If Northpine is kept, usage should be made consistent - ref 2 has Northpine.com, but ref 183 has Northpine straight up
  • Same question for RabbitEars
    • See my comments in GA reviews at Talk:KLKN/GA1 and Talk:KASA-TV/GA1. The former has my replies to both sites. If you'd rather see Northpine bypassed, the replacements would be an FCC order and a since-unfortunately but understandably-replaced reception guide. (Tegna sites do not archive)
  • The vast majority of sources don't have the work linked, except for the following sites/works: FCC, Seattle Times, WaPo, MinnPost, City Pages, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. It doesn't matter which you go with, but it should be consistently linked or consistently not linked
    • Decided to link on first use of any publication.
  • Similarly, location inclusion is inconsistent - Minneapolis Tribune and Minneapolis Star all have it whenever they're used, and LA Times does, but some other papers don't
    • Ref 94, 97, 101, 113, 129, 130, 133, 136, 142, 158, 159, 161, 165, 166, 171, 172, 175, 177, 184, and 192 are missing location
    • Removed all locations.
  • Ref 49 doesn't specify the work
    • Oops. It's Variety.
  • Some inconsistency in Star Tribune/Minneapolis Star and Tribune. Ref 120 uses Star Tribune, but that was 83, so before the rename if I'm reading right. 132 and 138 also predate the rename.
    • Repaired 83, 132, 138. (Any 2024 and on references, as of last month, should be Minnesota Star Tribune, but none of them exist yet.)
  • Why does ref 126 include a publisher when no other newspaper includes this?
    • That is an agency, not a publisher. Knight-Ridder syndicated this article to the newspaper.
  • Ref 159 lacks publisher info
    • Fixed.

Since I already did a source check in the GAN and found no significant concerns, I'm not going to repeat it here. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Steelkamp

edit

OK I'll review. Steelkamp (talk) 07:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox:

  • "KARE 11 (pronounced "Care")" -> "KARE 11 (pronounced "care")" as sentence case should be used.

Lead:

  • "that broadcast the Minnesota Twins, " -> "that broadcast the Minnesota Twins baseball team, ".
  • "This continued under two successive owners, Chris-Craft Industries and Metromedia." -> "This continued under two successive owners: Chris-Craft Industries and Metromedia."
  • "to its Washington, D.C. station." -> "to its Washington, D.C., station." as per MOS:GEOCOMMA
  • "ballyhooed" is too informal for Wikipedia I reckon.
  • There's nothing on the 1990s or post 2000 history in the lead.
  • Why is "St. Paul" used rather than "Saint Paul", which seems to be the city's official name according to Saint Paul, Minnesota?
    • This potato will need more time. I don't have Chicago Manual of Style access to the section that discusses this. AP Style, which while not influential on Wikipedia in most cases is used by most US news outlets, suggests "St." in all cases. If someone has CMOS access, please help.
    • @Steelkamp: I have obtained CMOS access. The relevant section is 10.35 (covering Fort, Mount, and Saint) and reads as follows: Generic terms as elements of geographic names are usually spelled out in formal prose (and in mailing addresses) but can be abbreviated where space is at a premium or to reflect predominant usage (as in the last two examples below). The last two examples mentioned are Saint (St.) Louis (usually St. Louis); Saint (St.) Paul (usually St. Paul). I believe that Chicago, as a major influence on MOS, should be applied here. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Early years:

  • "At 2 p.m." As per MOS:TIME, a non-breaking space should be placed before the p.m. There are a bunch of other places in the article where this should be done.
    • I usually avoid doing this by script as the script likes changing "p.m." to "pm" and is exceedingly inconsistent about it.
  • What does master antenna mean?
    • Elaborated a bit in the article. An antenna setup designed to broadcast multiple stations.
  • "At that time, Consolidated consolidated". I hate to be the fun police, but can a different word be used here other than consolidated?
  • "minor-league baseball" -> "minor league baseball".

As an independent station:

  • "WTCN had the only TV news staff in the market without a professional meteorologist." This reads like unusual wording to me. I suggest rewording to "WTCN had the only TV news team in the market without a professional meteorologist.".

Affiliating with NBC

  • "and sportscaster Bob Kurtz[b].[83]" I think MOS:CITEPUNCT applies to footnotes as well, so the footnote should be placed after the full stop

Gannett purchase and news overhaul:

  • Chicago is linked here but it can be linked higher up under "Chris-Craft ownership" and also in the lead. Also, I notice that Portland, Oregon is not linked at all. There's also Los Angeles and New York, but those fall under MOS:OVERLINK, although I am generally in favour of linking cities and wouldn't be opposed if those two were linked.
  • "the station added as many as 40 new staff members[115] to add to the 40 that it had at the time of purchase" -> "the station added as many as 40 new staff members[115] in addition to the 40 that it had at the time of purchase".
  • "new news vehicles and cameras." -> "new cameras and news vehicles."
  • "The station's newscasts were retitled News 11." Could a date for this change be added. Otherwise, its not clear how long the "11 News" name lasted.
  • Is "Sky 11" the name of the helicopter?
  • "It was the first time a tornado had been filmed from creation to dissipation." I'm confused by this. Wasn't the tornado already created when the helicopter arrived there?
    • Reworded for clarity — the sources seem to say that is not the case.
  • "Star Tribune" can be linked earlier. Also, is the Star Tribune the same newspaper as the Minneapolis Tribune, mentioned earlier. Can that be linked as well?
    • Fixed.
  • "and pushed KARE back to second." I may have missed this, but when did KARE become first?
    • You missed it Magers—the anchor commonly credited with helping KARE remain number one in late evening news
      • I was referring to when KARE became first before it was pushed back to second. Steelkamp (talk) 02:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh, earlier. Yes, you did indeed miss it, Steelkamp. The July 1987 sweeps period brought another historic achievement for KARE: it finished first at 10 p.m., with an audience share of 29 percent. This momentum was sustained through late 1987 and early 1988, even as an expansion to the Twin Cities market gave WCCO an edge in counting viewers in Alexandria. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 03:06, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Post-2000:

  • No comments.

Those are all the comments I have. Steelkamp (talk) 05:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Generalissima

edit

Mark me down for one. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:28, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oops, sorry for the delay.
  • Lede is solid. I would merge the first two paragraphs, but that is purely stylistic preference on my end.
  • Early years also extremely solid.
  • "catapulted" might be a bit too metaphorical and puffy. Maybe just "brought"?
  • NBC and Gannett portions solid.
  • Post-2000 also good.

Yeah, not a lot here to change! Apologies for the delay, Sammi Brie. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:28, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will probably stick with the existing lead structure, simply because it is closer to most topic pages, @Generalissima. Made the other change. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 22:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough! All looks good to me; support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

edit
  • "It was originally shared by two stations: WMIN-TV in St. Paul and WTCN-TV in Minneapolis, which alternated presenting local programs and shared an affiliation with ABC." Suggest "It was originally shared by WMIN-TV in St. Paul and WTCN-TV in Minneapolis: the two stations were each affiliated with ABC and alternated presenting local programs."
  • "that broadcast the Minnesota Twins baseball team": suggest "games" rather than "team" -- I know this is standard terminology but for non-US readers I think this is more natural, and it should be fine for US readers too.
  • "More recently": this is a tricky thing to do with the "as of" requirement, but maybe "as of 2024, the station has been a second-place finisher in local news for almost a decade", or whatever the relevant dates and periods are. I had a look in the body for the material that supports this and didn't spot it, but I haven't read through carefully yet -- can you just confirm it is indeed in the body?
    • Tweaked to match added "as of".
  • No change necessarily needed, but I'm curious about the sharing arrangement, alternating broadcasts. Is this unusual? Is it unusual enough for the rarity to be commented on in the article?
    • Yes. This isn't like the UK which had really long-running "split broadcasts" (think London ITV), and I suspect to many readers only familiar with modern-day TV it would be hard to explain. Shared-time broadcasting was typically proposed by applicants to get them to air faster.
      There were only a handful of shared-time stations, and their time as such was limited to months or a couple of years before one party sold out: KOOL-TV and KOY-TV, Phoenix; KSBW-TV and KMBY-TV, Salinas/Monterey; KMBC-TV and WHB-TV, Kansas City. There was one longer-running case among these, WHEC-TV and WVET-TV, Rochester, New York, which lasted eight years. There were two later shared-time TV stations: WILX-TV and WMSB, Onondaga, Michigan (1959–1972), which involved an educational and a commercial station, and one in Chicago in the 1980s, WPWR-TV and WBBS-TV (the latter of which is currently covered in WXFT-DT), where the operations did not merge in the end (WBBS was basically undermined by a changing Spanish-language TV market). In each case, the level of integration of the operations was varied. In Phoenix, the channel 10 stations basically operated out of separate wings of the same studio. The channel 11s of the Twin Cities were literally across a river from each other (WMIN-TV was in St. Paul).
      Do you have sources that would allow you to say "This was an unusual arrangement"? No problem if not but worth adding if you do. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 08:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Alas, no. The closest I can come is a fan page: [1]. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 14:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The transmitter and antenna was the only physical facility shared by the stations": number mismatch between subject and verb. "were" would mismatch with "facility", though, so perhaps "The transmitter and antenna were the only resources shared by the stations"?
  • "films had to be airmailed to and from sister station KELO-TV in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, before air": I think "before air" is redundant and could be cut.
  • "Captain 11" seems worth a redlink, or a link to a section in the related existing article about the cloned show -- though a bit of googling seems to indicate a separate article could be justified.
    • Turns out Captain 11 is an article, and I think it merits it, too. I've placed this blue link in the footnote because it's about the Sioux Falls version, which is the one that meets the GNG.
  • "made for an attractive purchase because it was hampered by its shared status": I'm not sure I follow -- the shared status meant the price was low?
    • Yes, that's how I read that.

More to come; done through the "Early years" section. It might be tomorrow or Monday before I can get back to this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing:

  • "These reports proved true": needs rephrasing; the reports in the previous sentence aren't reports that ABC was considering moving to KMSP-TV; they are reports that channel 11 wanted a protection clause.
    • Rephrased.
  • What is "studio wrestling"?
    • Wrestling. In a television studio.
      I did think it was probably that, but it seemed an odd thing to mention and I wondered if there were some odd variety of wrestling I'd never heard of. I'd drop "studio" unless you feel it's important, in which case something like "by adding wrestling (live from the channel 11 studio) and college sports ..." would avoid my misunderstanding. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In lieu of the collapsed candelabra": just checking that "candelabra" is a standard term in the industry -- presumably for a multi-station mast? I've never heard it used in this way, but if this is industry usage that's fine (though if there's a glossary somewhere that could be linked that would be good).
  • "barely registered as a news source in the community, though it was just behind KMSP-TV in total viewers": I don't understand this -- what does "registered" refer to if not viewership?
    • Reworded.
  • "she was dismissed because she was not a degreed meteorologist, and though she was technically a freelancer, her duties for WTCN prevented her from immediately seeking similar employment in the market": the source doesn't mention degrees -- I agree that's probably what is being referred to, but they don't say so. Also, I think the second-half is a misreading: she's saying she was unable to work at other stations in the past while she was employed, not after she lost her job.
  • "and Gil Amundson (himself relieved of news director duties) too weak a leader": I don't understand the parenthesis -- if he'd been relieved of the leadership role, why is he being described as the leader?
    • Reworded.
  • "the station placed fourth out of three newscasts (and KMSP)": odd phrasing -- KMSP did have a news operation, or so we say a paragraph or two earlier, so why not just make this "last of the four local newscasts"?
    • They were not airing news at 6 but an entertainment show. Reworded.
  • "Burns was the last of the original three news presenters to remain with WTCN": suggest "leave" rather than "remain" as more straightforward.
    • Good idea.
  • "changing the name from NewsCenter 11 to 11 News" and "The station's newscasts were retitled News 11": I assume one of these is in error?
    • Nope! The 11 News title was so short-lived that there is little visual proof of it, so here is a 30-second promo. It was basically a band-aid on the outgoing WTCN news presentation and set until the top-to-bottom revamp (as News 11) debuted in September.
      Fair enough, but since I can imagine other readers will wonder too, how about making this "The station's newscasts were retitled again, from 11 News to News 11."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "continued its domination of households 25–54": I think this has to be "adults" or "viewers", not "households"; households don't have ages.
    • Changed (though "households" in this way can be common phrasing in advertising and marketing).
  • The paragraph starting "The 1990s were a decade of strength for KARE news" cites a 1992 and 1996 story about specific sweeps results, not general statements about the whole decade. I see the 1996 source does indicate KARE had had strong results for a while. Perhaps just make this "the early 1990s", unless you have sources about the sweeps for the later years of the decade?
    • Found an additional source.
  • "The competition was spousal": I think you could cut this: the rest of the sentence makes the point.
    • Done.
  • "While KARE has been competitive since": suggest starting this with "While, as of 2022, ...".
    • Done.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:23, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: Resolved all the issues and responded to your question on shared-time. It's my eventual goal to do the remaining stations for GA grade (the Rochester one is going to be the toughest and most voluminous). Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 14:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most struck above; a couple of follow up comments. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie Final rewording on Toni Hughes, wrestling, and 11 News. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 22:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. 22:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/KARE_(TV)/archive1&oldid=1248688557"